R&D Rework : the simple version

[kyres1]

This is probably the most simple suggestion I can muster to rework R&D as a concept.

The current issue with R&D is : levels, and a dwindling amount of options for items which can be researched. At least, interesting items.

The solution is : make all currently available (and as many others we can conceivably muster added to the protolathe or other, similar machinery) items obtainable at roundstart. Remove levels. The obstacle preventing spam of high-end advanced weapons to instakill Antagonist McGee is either nothing, or materials.

Why does this solution work :

Right now weapons are extremely lethal. Anything R&D can print as it stands is already, as such, extremely lethal. Extreme lethality aside, we contribute nothing by repeatedly removing abused assets from player hands due to the abuse. An example of this is the Lawgiver, where it found itself removed due to Particular Players going around spamming them and using them personally to instantly assblast the antagonist. Another example is firing pins, a simple and extremely easy-to-bypass obstacle which players have found far more than one workaround for.

Personally, I am of the belief that R&D should shift to be assembly of advanced prototypes and other things the station is expected to have (being the top-of-the-line station and one of the last phoron deposits in the known galaxy), and gain access to much of the things that shouldn't or couldn't be obtained previously. Shift setup no longer becomes a mandatory thing to pursue - it becomes completely player choice on how to arrange it, and how to disperse equipment and items between the crew for their usage. Frankly, if the R&D crew decide to repeatedly send out weapons at roundstart, perhaps we should rethink the entire concept of them making weapons in the first place - or, better yet, rethink the concept of whatever stops them, if it's so popular.

That's honestly all. As for robotics being OP ; well, they make Mechs. If you intend to make Mechs underpowered at what they do, what is the point? If it becomes an issue, add a massive material block between the players and the mecha in the first place, and I assure whoever is reading this - few will complain. They are, after all, basically the biggest most badass "tool" or "weapon" you can have right now for any scenario.

Probable responses:
 

Spoiler

Won't shitters abuse newfound powers, as they typically do?

Yes. As with all departments, shitters abusing power typically leads to punishment. Science is not an exception, as its capacity to ruin a round (even with every weapon ever) is equal to practically anybody else bar service.

Without levels, won't the ability to shit out antag-destroying gear become much easier to obtain?

No. Levels take five to ten minutes in experienced hands, by that time you've gotten your first shipment of materials and are able to produce everything anyway. By roughly 20-30 minutes, you have access to everything.

If levels are so simple and stupidly fast to complete, what is the point of removing them? Aren't they a decent enough roadblock to stop Roboticists from printing giant weapons or exploitation of the R&D lathes?

No because these giant weapons are available by default right now. Weapons research starts at a sufficient level to permit printing Robotics' most lethal components. The roadblock here is materials. Further, they can just upgrade levels themselves by adding passive processors to the server room (which they have access to, and the proper components can be made through their own equipment + cargo lathes + tech storage.)

If all of the above is so easily dismissed, how do we prevent miners from getting materials in ASAP and having end-game gear provided 10 minutes in?

Endgame shouldn't exist in the first place - you play to roleplay, blocking the tools behind a long and obtuse point-gathering process which requires knowledge of a 3 year old unchanged list of components, is functionally the only blockage from "endgame" we have. Every other department gets to start off with almost every necessary component in place for it to function - why does Research have to be exempt?

Further, this could be easily subverted by making other departments require substantial enough resources to circumvent Research's needs entirely - see, medical requiring mats for chems or special fuel-powered treatments. Or, engineering having an alternative fuel-based reactor. The downside of this of course being that it just adds another layer preventing the station from accomplishing its goal, and thus makes you question why these departments aren't given materials to begin with. The upside is that command staff, or cargo's advisory (quartermaster) could control the flow to different departments, thus adding an actually decent and controllable contribution to the round by a player.

wouldn't Medical and Engineering benefit similarly from changes along these lines?

If I played anything else I'd have similar comments on it, however, Research is the thing I am presently decently knowledgeable about. My impressions from my knowledge have led me to these conclusions. Also, suggestions similar to this could be made for every other department, the primary issue being that they haven't been made yet.

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by kyres1

[KingOfThePing]

I, too, wish for a return of the Lawgiver. 

 

The rest of the suggestion is fine too, I think 

[Cnaym]

4 hours ago, kyres1 said:

Won't shitters abuse newfound powers, as they typically do?

Yes. As with all departments, shitters abusing power typically leads to punishment. Science is not an exception, as its capacity to ruin a round (even with every weapon ever) is equal to practically anybody else bar service.

You have never seen a molotov spam during a revolution round eh?

This is the "do we put in staff effort or code it out" issue we face with a lot of things.

Imho we all abuse things to a degree. For some it is antag gear, for others it is extending their characters knowledge just a little to safe someone, for others it's completly bonkers stuff which works as long as it stays under the radar really.

I'd like to respect my fellow players autonomy in this regard as well, but it's not a sentiment widely spread. Stuff will be considered abuse once it damages someones round, not benefit it and as such it takes a decent amount of restrain to not do the things yourself. We honestly got staff to handle the frequent and worst offenders. No clue why we remove some things and ignore a lot of others but it is what it is.

4 hours ago, kyres1 said:

If all of the above is so easily dismissed, how do we prevent miners from getting materials in ASAP and having end-game gear provided 10 minutes in?

Endgame shouldn't exist in the first place - you play to roleplay, blocking the tools behind a long and obtuse point-gathering process which requires knowledge of a 3 year old unchanged list of components, is functionally the only blockage from "endgame" we have. Every other department gets to start off with almost every necessary component in place for it to function - why does Research have to be exempt?

My suggestion would be to just make the entire list automated and unlock things over time if the goal is to keep some stuff out of the early round, because the current process does not do anything in that regard really. Even the material requirements are a joke since people added a shit ton of phoron and even uranium to the stations layout -> Very unreasonable design choices tbh.

Weapon research starting with SMGs for Exosuits can only be a cruel joke, I fully agree with you on that. Having to ressearch an advanced mop does not exactly scream balance.

4 hours ago, kyres1 said:

If all of the above is so easily dismissed, how do we prevent miners from getting materials in ASAP and having end-game gear provided 10 minutes in?

Every miner with decent gameplay knowledge spends 20 minutes outsides and the round is over in terms of materials and upgrades.

There is no reason to farm points, there is little to no reason to farm materials, there is nothing left to find outside since the removal of sites.

My suggestion would be reducing the R&D system to copy things found by the crew. This way expeditions would become worthwhile and allow for randomized blueprints to spice up rounds, while making it easy to lock certain stuff from this (we don't need emag spam for example). Also adding in sites and mini dungeons outside so the crew can stumble upon them and find things was one of the best features we scrapped for that one derp abusing it again. Big sad.

The rest of the stuff can start unlocked for all I care. Nobody going to abuse an IMS.

[Eple]

Overpowered is prettymuch a non issue for a hrp server, we gota have reasons for giveing security a super op deathblaster that doesnt require him to get it unlocked by warden to even be able to fire it.

Like with artifacts we find outside station, or with like xeno botany\science most of it is just fluff to have something to roleplay about.

The instant we think about useing deathblaster 2000 to kill antags, then we have allready failed.. its not a self defence weapon nor something that should be given to security at all, infact it should probebly be keept secret and only be fluff rp to be said given to odin or and aurora\nt's military... not to be used other than testing its leathailty vs mankeys.

----

Rowboats on the other han is allmost like the maint drones, tools to be used, that follow AI, of corse can be corrupted but then will do the same as before following the new instruction guidelines.

Since there is no military\security rowboat ingame (or at least enabled), the other robots really doesnt have anything in a vs antag situation todo other than vs npc antags like blob\wines.. they arnt there to engage with antag, and i don't even consider them crew despite playing them alot. To me robots \stationbouns are there for the lazy player to skip all the rp and focuseing on doing the hard\repeative tasks for us that likes to work, and repair the station without haveing to deal with interaction... other than following the lawset, even moreso when it comes to AI.. bit shame it was whitelisted.

[Carver]

I'm down for killing RnD set-up but I'd hope for some significant mining nerfs so that post-30 minutes antagonism isn't 'break into research and print out the best 1-shot tool, while prepping to deal with the same bullshit spread around the station'. Bonus points if breaking into RnD to wipe the research servers puts it back to where it is now, so there's a strong incentive to do so.

As for overpowered being a supposed non-issue, we have too many powergamers for that to be the case, but when shit gets abused shit (ideally) gets nerfed. What finer way is there to balance everything than having it readily available and thus easily judged?

[Skull132]

Any arguments towards "Over powered" are kinda pointless. Once a scientist knows what they're doing, they can get access to whatever the materials available to them already allow them. So why not just. Remove the minigame, since the kewl stuff is hidden behind materials anyways? And if anything is out of whack, just balance it with the item cost itself. Like, as far as gateways go, RnD is a very shitty one.

So to be clear. This wouldn't remove mechanical balance. We can still do that by adjusting mining yields and item material costs.

[NerdyVampire]

13 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

Remove the minigame, since the kewl stuff is hidden behind materials anyways?

Agreed, and if necessary we can always add an exotic material that is obtainable from expeditions or more rarely found on the 'stroid than all the other easy-to-find materials.

[Lmwevil]

I think this is a good idea, namely because it means that Robotics don't get infinitely cucked just because they'd get banned for touching the destructive analyzer. 

What does this mean for esoteric tho? Currently the only way to get it is a lucky drop from mining to grind, or from cargo, or an antag. Is it just becoming baseline but the related products getting tuned up?