Player complaint - Schevenigen

[stev]

BYOND Key: Memescope McGee
Game ID: cda-adiZ; Discord discussion link: https://discord.com/channels/157516682288562176/725470666039754783/868165459919405077
Player Byond Key/Character name: Schevenigen/Etilka Strelitz
Staff involved: @WickedCybs (ingame), @MattAtlas (on Discord)
Reason for complaint: Poor escalation as HoS on a round, but primarily 
Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? Yes, I ahelped after I died; @WickedCybs responded and investigated it, but I had to go before the ticket got resolved. With the Discord issue, @MattAtlas told me to post on Schev's whitelist application or make a player complaint.
Approximate Date/Time: For the round, see game ID. For the Discord thing, Schev's first message was posted at 17:17 BST/UTC+1, 23/07/2021, in the #serious-discussion channel.

Description of the incident in-game (Game ID: cda-adiZ):

Spoiler

On a round last night , Schev was playing their HoS (Eltika Strelitz) on a round that ended up a great deal messier and bloodier than it needed to be. Myself and @Rushodan played 2 burglars with the simple goal of loitering in maintenance and brewing & selling some ghettochem drugs. We were ofc spotted the instant we poked our head out of maintenance but had a nice, civil conversation with a couple Medical staff. Once Security heard about us being in Medical (falsely reported as 2 heavily armoured and armed hostiles, while in actuality it was 1 IPC in heavy armour with just an icelance and 1 Zhan with no armour just wearing some pants, also with an icelance), Security arrived in full force in full armour plating and (IIRC) with some Armory weaponry. We were quickly surrounded and ordered to stand down and come into custody (despite not even doing anything thus far) at which point we ran away, since both the antags getting arrested under 40 minutes into the round is thoroughly boring for everyone. Blue Alert was immediately called when we ran into maintenance and the entire armory was given out to Security, including lethal-only laser rifles and lethal-enabled disruptors, despite there being no hostilities, only 1 person in armour and no attempt at a non-lethal arrest. 

After that, long story short, we got fired on with lethals (admittedly without an order from Strelitz, but officers were given lethal weaponry so used it) while trying to escape from another armed arrest after being found hiding in maintenance; then an IPC officer stumbled upon the burglar shuttle and blocked us from escaping from the station while calling for backup, so we were forced to use an EMP grenade to disable them to get past. The IPC being (non-lethally) disabled was then used as justification for both burglars being gunned down through the burglar shuttle windows with lethal carbines and laser rifles, to which both of us died - we couldn't reach the shuttle console without marching into their firing line from the window, meaning both of us were shot to death just trying to launch the shuttle to escape. We were both dead by around 1:10, admins launched the shuttle after we died as the launch console seemed to be slightly bugged.

Description of the Discord interaction (starting roughly https://discord.com/channels/157516682288562176/725470666039754783/868165459919405077):

Spoiler

I brought up the aforementioned round when talking in the main Aurora Discord's #serious-discussion channel about a largely unrelated suggestion for Burglars to get non-ballistic armour plates at roundstart, I only elaborated after being asked for details by others in the discussion. Schev then came in while I was afk, saying I was intentionally misrepresenting the round and eventually accusing me of purposefully lying with intent to defame his reputation (https://discord.com/channels/157516682288562176/725470666039754783/868169134435889213), continuing to insist he was justified because we "both were wearing the merc[enar]y combat armor", "kitted up first though, mercenary round style [...] wearing it the first confrontation in medical, where no one in sec was geared yet". Not only was all of this incorrect - only the IPC was wearing any armour at all, I (the Zhan) was just wearing shirtless adhomian pants (spawned in by @Pratepresidenten), webbing and an ultra rare hat I found in maint - but he's doubled down so hard on this that he's now stated, "I'm recording my rounds if I see you on server again mate. Cus it ain't cool to lie about what happened over a video game for the sake of causing problems for other people who just want to play for fun instead of for arguing." To me this is absolutely out of line for a HoS player, not only disrespecting feedback or even differing opinions on a round but actively suppressing other people's experiences of it, even accusing those who talk about it of lying to get them in trouble if they don't line up precisely with Schev's take on it.

I was initially going to make this a post on Schev's command whitelist re-application (https://forums.aurorastation.org/topic/16097-scheveningen-command-whitelist-reapp/), but after looking over the whole thing thought it'd be more appropriate to post this as a proper complaint.

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by stev

[Scheveningen]

My two primary witnesses to support my case here are @Faye <3 and @BLUNTFORCE420. They played the CMO and a detective that round, respectively.

I was not able to also find NT-Omen, who was also present, and was not able to recall the exact medical roster who were also present and witnessing the conversation between your antagonist character(s) and the rest of the medical staff in question.




In addition, there is in-round comms and dialogue during the course of that round that took place that stated you both were in full combat armor at first initial sighting. The merc combat armor is so heavy and full-covering, I wasn't even aware of your undershirt or anything like that, because I don't personally retain jumpsuit-type clothing in my memory.

So, here is what I think about this. I don't understand why you would lie about something that is easily verified in the opposite by the initial eyewitness testimony. The very MOMENT I appeared in medical to see what was going on, because the CMO asked for me without giving me many other details, I saw the both of you in full combat gear plus the icelance rifles. And the icelance rifles aren't joke weapons, they can get work done in regards to pushing lethal force out on practically anything. Other HoS players not on their trial would've demanded you disarm without any arguments, and probably commenced with the same yakety sax routine that happened during that round anyway.

But the initial assessment didn't lead me to initially think that we NEEDED to have both of the antagonists of the round instantly purged. Nor would I agree with it until it was absolutely necessary. The long and short of it is that aspect of the round was dealt with already by the admins and cleared as a complicated issue that was only problematic in terms of IC. I would personally like to know for what purpose you said what you did in regards to the "defense" that honestly could not be true, given eyewitness testimony by other other parties besides me (because I am being accused here, so mine's a grain of salt in worth) that prove otherwise.

[stev]

51 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

My two primary witnesses to support my case here are @Faye <3 and @BLUNTFORCE420. They played the CMO and a detective that round, respectively.

I was not able to also find NT-Omen, who was also present, and was not able to recall the exact medical roster who were also present and witnessing the conversation between your antagonist character(s) and the rest of the medical staff in question.




In addition, there is in-round comms and dialogue during the course of that round that took place that stated you both were in full combat armor at first initial sighting. The merc combat armor is so heavy and full-covering, I wasn't even aware of your undershirt or anything like that, because I don't personally retain jumpsuit-type clothing in my memory.

So, here is what I think about this. I don't understand why you would lie about something that is easily verified in the opposite by the initial eyewitness testimony. The very MOMENT I appeared in medical to see what was going on, because the CMO asked for me without giving me many other details, I saw the both of you in full combat gear plus the icelance rifles. And the icelance rifles aren't joke weapons, they can get work done in regards to pushing lethal force out on practically anything. Other HoS players not on their trial would've demanded you disarm without any arguments, and probably commenced with the same yakety sax routine that happened during that round anyway.

But the initial assessment didn't lead me to initially think that we NEEDED to have both of the antagonists of the round instantly purged. Nor would I agree with it until it was absolutely necessary. The long and short of it is that aspect of the round was dealt with already by the admins and cleared as a complicated issue that was only problematic in terms of IC. I would personally like to know for what purpose you said what you did in regards to the "defense" that honestly could not be true, given eyewitness testimony by other other parties besides me (because I am being accused here, so mine's a grain of salt in worth) that prove otherwise.

Okay so I don't know why you're doubling down and insisting we both had the armour on, only one of us had the armour on (the IPC). In fact @Faye <3 can probably attest to the fact that I (the Zhan) wasn't, given I was wearing the same ultra rare hat as her character instead of a helmet and armour, something I commented on when we met. I'm seriously not trying to gaslight you or anything here, and I don't know how else to tell you this, but you're misremembering what I was wearing and the fact that this has escalated to a player complaint about misremembering my clothes is exactly the problem I'm trying to highlight here. 

[ShesTrying]

@MattAtlas and I will be handling this complaint. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by ShesTrying

[Faye <3]

hi. so i originally told the hos to come down to medical b/c two people who were armed walked into medical. they weren't hostile or anything, but atiyeh only said "hey come here strelitz" b/c she didn't want to upset stev and rush' characters by talking into her headset too much. 

etilka listened for a little while, and i was very surprised when security started forming up in medical like it was fucking Waco, you know? i also thought it was weird when security killed the two antags, considering Stev's character yelled for them to stop multiple times on the radio. Yhara being the moralistic woman she is poked around about it, and was told that security shot them without orders which I suppose isn't Schev's fault.

while i am sure that both of them had weapons and that the IPC had armor, i may be mistaken on Stev's character having a vest. my memory ain't so great, so staff will probably want to double check that and save us all the back and forth. 

[Rushodan]

Trying is lying, not handling as I am involved.

Speaking of I only have a few comments to make:

I (the IPC Drug-Bot) was visibly lightly armed and decently armoured - @stev was not. It was communicated that I was working as a chemist/bodyguard for Big Farrim and never really drew my weapon on anyone to begin with. I don't know why it's been explained as us both coming in like mercs and intending to do damage. In fact, our first communication was with medical/the CMO and we just wanted to use their pharmacy. We even agreed to make some medical chems for them as payment as they were missing a proper chemist at the time.

No hostilities were expressed at this time and things were going somewhat okay. We ended up running away and eventually were caught by security again. The next time we see them they are fully kitted out in the heaviest arms and armour that they can get from the armoury. They told us to stop but we kept on running, not really intending to get into a firefight as we just wanted our maint-drugs darn it.

What I found weird was the sudden decision to go to lethals from this. We were pretty much gunned down in the shuttle with security firing first, with the only damage so far being an ioned IPC that engaged us. Security forced us into a situation where we either surrendered or died without any other options, effectively ending the round.

I'm not sure why the Head of Security didn't issue out an Ion (from what I saw) to disable the bodyguard IPC if they believed me to be a serious threat and some carbines to tase Big Farram. Gunning us down in the shuttle with rifles seemed extremely bloodthirsty for the events that had transpired in round. I was debating ahelping it, but was so tired I just disconnected and went to bed.

TL:DR?
Farram wasn't in thicc armour, just in some casual clothes befitting of a stoner-cat.
The robot was armed and armoured, but less-lethal measures like the Ion were not employed. (I'd argue lightly armed as tbh the Icelance gets three shots before you are done bud. No other weapons were on display.)
We were not openly hostile with the station, but were firing-squadded in the shuttle for trying to get away. Not sure why that was needed and is the main reason I am commenting.
The only person hurt was an ioned IPC, which happened because they shot at us.

Additionally: Even if the Head of Security did not give the express order to have us shot, I would still give them a fair share of the responsibility. They are the one who permitted security to arm up with the heaviest kit which lead to them gunning down the antags. 

[Scheveningen]

Two things.

Relating to Faye's response, as far as I can recall, you can't have a rifle-type weapon donned alongside a bag, unless you also have an armor vest which opens up the suit storage slot. There's no way to wear both otherwise.

As for the second, I really don't want to go over what happened on our side, but I'm doing so anyway. What happened was that the intent of various manuevers and orders given by me did not match up at all with my expectations, and there were a fair few of "creative interpretations" of the orders given by the HOS as well as how they were executed. The original intent of "follow them, backup to sci/chapel maintenance" was to cut the antagonists of the round off and get them to stop moving for a second and actually say more than a few words per sentence. By the time the two burglars booked it, Zivic had a cautious trigger finger and ran straight into the two burglars who had their weapons drawn (note, I never gave the order to shoot until I was given the impression they were shooting). Zivic only shot once, and then immediately disengaging, realizing their original orders but probably being surprised by the close presence of the two burglars. And once it got into the retaliatory action cycle, moral rightness of the situation got thrown out the window.

Did you know there was an officer pestering me about shotgun slugs while all this complicated crap was going down? I told them "yes", with no intention of opening the shotgun slugs crate, just to get myself to not have to deal with it because I wasn't going to waste time arguing with them when there was the concern of Omen getting EMP'd up on the surface level by themselves, and likewise figuring out what was even going on.

By the time it escalated to an officer and the two burglars exchanging laser duels through the windows, there was pretty much no way that situation was going to end other than the way it did. The situation escalated to an actual threat level, and the prior attempts by the two burglars to dodge interaction by simply walking/teleport pen blinking away made me assume the round antagonists had little interest in speaking (The staff handling the matter asked me about that little detail, by the way). Does that mean I justify that death funnel situation in the shuttle? No. I made absolutely every effort to ensure that wouldn't happen and yet it did anyway because that's the rub of SS13, you cannot control every factor on the board like you would during a game of chess. Were it that I could, that situation would've ended differently, but I have a greater respect for other players' freedom of choice and their ability to occasionally mess up situations on their own terms, because sucks as it is to be on the receiving end, it happens all the time.

What I don't appreciate is someone like the OP taking what happened over a video game platform so ultra seriously they decide to trudge the already-resolved matter all the way out to #serious-discussion on the main discord to otherwise provide a totally one-sided and misrepresented account of what happened. And it's not like they don't do this on a regular basis either. That makes this very personal. It's absolutely unfair to see such a scenario being displayed in a super bad faith, uncharitable sort of fashion, as if it counts as valuable discussion to portray players/characters as way worse than they were actually being, especially considering I do not recall being issued a warning for what actually occurred. To paraphrase, the resolution of the ticket there from Cybs, "I don't see any real issue from this apart from the problem with the shotgun slugs", which the officer themselves actually got either a note or warning for, since I was not the first person with the shotgun slugs idea.

If I have to take additional measures because of how you treat people, Stev, then I will, if I have to. Were it so easy to tell you to let something go when you should, it would be done.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Scheveningen

[stev]

Okay so I'm not gonna go point by point here because this is a long goddamn post with not much to say. What I will say is, you chose to enter that discussion. When I was talking about it, I merely briefly outlined bits of the situation after someone asked me for more details on it. And even then, I didn't name names or assign blame to anyone in particular - you came into a discussion that wasn't about you specifically, and took it over to accuse me of lying about the situation to make you look bad, also throwing in some insults aimed at me while you were at it. I'd be kind of okay with how the round went if you were actually willing to accept some slight bit of responsibility, especially given you're on command trial, these things happen. What really made this complaint necessary, however, were these accusations of me lying about shit to make you look bad, instead of even considering the possibility that there were some slight misrememberings or miscommunications. 

And since we're on the armour vest topic again for some ungodly reason, 

1 hour ago, Scheveningen said:

Relating to Faye's response, as far as I can recall, you can't have a rifle-type weapon donned alongside a bag, unless you also have an armor vest which opens up the suit storage slot. There's no way to wear both otherwise.

I was holding a dufflebag in hand and wore the rifle on my back. Please just accept your memory might not be 100% perfect and let it go. Goddamn.

[Scheveningen]

Right, I regret engaging in the first place on Discord, that was definitely a mistake. There was no onus on me to have to clear up anything but I definitely got myself into that.

I honestly don't believe the notion that you were even remotely okay with how the round went considering how I dealt with 30 minutes + of verifying information IC and relaying it to the handling staff member of exactly what happened on the side of the crew, and how each member in security added their own complexities to the situation. Just the aspect of trying to figure out what truthfully happened on the side of the security members that weren't me was almost an exercise in futility. The fact someone else tried to sneak shotgun slugs into being deployed in the round especially infuriates me still.

I was trying to pinpoint exactly where all that went downhill, and nobody even I've spoken to has actually managed to figure out where the downspiral to a terrible round end could've been prevented. It literally did not exist, too many variables were already in play that one person probably couldn't have stopped it from there. It's just as nearly impossible to throw people off the course they've decided once they've committed to it.

And since we're circling around to that detail of the stupid armor vest topic, I am actually considering I was wrong. I had a completely different picture of what that initial scene in medical was all about, and being told all of a sudden that actually didn't happen the way it did is driving me up the wall. But seeing as how people misremember images of things happening all the time, I'm not immune.

Calling you a liar was brash and stupid. I'm aware my tone takes a disturbing shift from how it looks earlier, don't give me any pity. If there's any chance the staff here find any wrongdoing in what I did, I already had my chance of proving myself and I blew it in under a week.

I'm going to step off and not comment much further on this issue. 

[MattAtlas]

We've investigated things for a while and have come to a conclusion.

On 23/07/2021 at 20:19, stev said:

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? Yes, I ahelped after I died; @WickedCybs responded and investigated it, but I had to go before the ticket got resolved.

Considering that your ticket was already resolved, there's nothing we can act upon. If you disagree with their judgement, a staff complaint is what you are looking for, so what happened in game is not being dealt with in this complaint.

Instead, we took a longer look at the Discord conversation. Let me start off by saying that neither of the parties involved are blameless. There are definitely snipes and escalatory comments coming from both Memescope and Scheveningen. We don't really consider the incident to be bad enough to require action for either of you two, though. The biggest problems here were the accusations of lying, but a) both sides said that the other was lying and b) it wasn't worded in a particularly improper way. It seems like that entire discussion was the byproduct of a particularly bad round for both sides and we didn't see any egregious comments, really.

In conclusion, these things happen, keep it civil on Discord for next time please.

Locking in 24 hours.

Edited July 31, 2021 by MattAtlas