The Return of the Starship Kitchen

[Caelphon]

I awoke this morning to have found the Kitchen I love and know to be ... returned to what was essentially the Aurora design. I find the design to be incredibly large and distant, and the entrance to the main hallway doesn't fit as nicely as it previously did with the "Starship Kitchen". It went from a moderately-sized room to one that frankly is far too empty and far too big. I believe returning to the previous design would be better, and I lodge a suggestion for it. 

[SleepyWolf]

there's a new model somewhere i saw that moved the freezer to the mid-deck, squishing everything else in - but keeps the counter near the hallway. i also like that one.

[Carver]

I actually really like the current kitchen, and the remoteness of the freezer. The only time I can't see people is if I'm getting materials from the freezer, or using the fryer - besides that, I can see them all the time if I wish to. It's spacious but not oversized, my only desire would be some way for guests to be able to get their own utensils.

Edit: Nevermind saw the newly mapped kitchen, this is hideous. All my words above refer to the last kitchen we had.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Carver

[KingOfThePing]

The current design has been made in conjunction with people who almost exclusively play chef. I dont really understand the point "it's just the Aurora design again", because yes, it is, because that design was functional and provided a good flow and it just worked very well.

The original design hat some mind-boggling choices, like seperating the stove and putting it at the far end of the kitchen, without easily accessible tables to put things on. It was a big "run up and down", without the space to do so. The freezer dungeon, while cool in idea, was also weird as fuck. It makes little sense for chefs to be able to access a stairway, that also directly leads to the bridge of all places, to recover some pieces of meat or kill a cow. 

Here is the new design:

 

Is it cramped? Yes, but that is how things are on a space ship. Room is a luxury that's not wasted. Considering this, the kitchen is big as it is, due to game limitations, obviously. You are the first who give negative feedback, regarding this redesign and instead of just saying "its bad lol", more constructive criticism would help a lot more.

Edited April 18, 2022 by KingOfThePing

[Carver]

1 hour ago, KingOfThePing said:

more constructive criticism would help a lot more.

To be more constructive:
1) I genuinely liked the eating area being separated from the bar, it offered a nice amount of privacy for guests and meant that ventilation issues in the hallway wouldn't affect my chef or his guests.
2) I very much liked having two separate grinders (as it meant both chefs would have a large beaker each).
3) It's inconvenient that I have to hand out utensils to the crew, whilst the Aurora had a public utensil vendor for them (albeit hidden away in the bar). The larger eating area would have had space for this public vendor to return.
4) The Chef utensil vendor would be nice to have more central in the kitchen, so I'm not walking over to the windows whenever I need to grab four skillets/saucepans/etc. for a bulk order. It could comfortably trade places with the disposal unit.
5) (Less related to the changes) It would be very nice to have some form of shutters or polarization for the exterior windows, given how common carp are (and how it's very realistic for security to be too busy to handle it).

[Caelphon]

I may not play Chef, but I regularly staff the Kitchen as my Captain. Every shift I'll go down and make some meals for the crew to enjoy, I'm there at least every shift if there isn't a Chef. 

I don't find the above cramped, I find it quite big and rather disjointed. I like cramped, which is why I like the previous iteration! The previous iteration was compact, but I felt like it was designed better besides the minor issues with the closing off from the main hallway. I also preferred the freezer downstairs as it was easier for antag shenanigans. I find the shutters over the tables to be rather ugly when they're down, they don't line up with the rest of the SCCV Horizon unlike the previous iteration. 

You mentioned that "Room is a luxury thats not wasted" but ... I feel this is a bigger waste of space than the previous iteration? It feels further to travel around the Kitchen that the previous iteration. 

I think removing the wall from the closed-off section from the previous iteration is the only think I would suggest in alterations. The rest of it I enjoyed. It was compact. It was efficient. This feels disjointed, and has some minor design flaws that ultimately make it ... "ugly". 

[KingOfThePing]

42 minutes ago, Carver said:

things

to 1: this is apparently a thing that splits people. The counter argument was that the kitchen is out of sight that way and thus - out of mind.

to 2: additional beakers to add are no problem.

to 3: the complaint about handing out utensils is a new one (to remind you, the old iteration didnt have this either) but I adding a public utensil vendor is no problem at all.

to 4: no problem trading places here either

to 5: I am not sure how to easily achieve this right now from the top of my head but I can look into that

[KingOfThePing]

58 minutes ago, Caelphon said:

things

I misunderstood you then - the current iteration has some dead space, I was aware of that, but at that point I didnt know what to do with it - thus the integration of the freezer in the current iteration. 

Quote

I don't find the above cramped, I find it quite big and rather disjointed. I like cramped, which is why I like the previous iteration! The previous iteration was compact, but I felt like it was designed better besides the minor issues with the closing off from the main hallway. I also preferred the freezer downstairs as it was easier for antag shenanigans.

I dont understand what you want to say. The picture above has the minimum required room to move around in it (namely being /one/ tile), The old freezer space can also still be used for antag stuff, the space was not lost, just decoupled from the kitchen. 

Quote

I find the shutters over the tables to be rather ugly when they're down, they don't line up with the rest of the SCCV Horizon unlike the previous iteration. 

I have not touched the way the shutters look or work, I am not sure what you mean by that. It is the same as with the bar. Not changed in any way, besides moving them with the tables.

58 minutes ago, Caelphon said:

You mentioned that "Room is a luxury thats not wasted" but ... I feel this is a bigger waste of space than the previous iteration? It feels further to travel around the Kitchen that the previous iteration. 

I am also not sure what you mean by this, in the end all that was done was moving the kitchen towards the hallway by two tiles. It now fits the freezer in, too, so it's efficiency of the space used has increased. I need a better explanation here what you mean.

Edited April 18, 2022 by KingOfThePing

[Carver]

21 minutes ago, KingOfThePing said:

to 1: this is apparently a thing that splits people. The counter argument was that the kitchen is out of sight that way and thus - out of mind.

I can see the argument for this. I just really liked that hallway ventilation issues didn't affect the kitchen (or vice versa), and it gave me more of a feel of running a small diner rather than just being a lunch lady.

22 minutes ago, KingOfThePing said:

to 3: the complaint about handing out utensils is a new one (to remind you, the old iteration didnt have this either) but I adding a public utensil vendor is no problem at all.

As for the old iteration not having one, the thought was that the old design had the room for one to be comfortably added without looking out of place.

As well, thank you for addressing my other concerns.

[KingOfThePing]

Regarding the seperation, I would need more feedback, regarding that, to see what people really want. I will see to re-add the wall (or think of something else entirely maybe) when it is what people want.

 

[Caelphon]

17 minutes ago, KingOfThePing said:

I dont understand what you want to say. The picture above has the minimum required room to move around in it (namely being /one/ tile), The old freezer space can also still be used for antag stuff, the space was not lost, just decoupled from the kitchen. 

It feels a lot more clunkier than the previous iteration of the Kitchen. I think it is the horizontal tables, instead of the verticle ones. 

18 minutes ago, KingOfThePing said:

I have not touched the way the shutters look or work, I am not sure what you mean by that. It is the same as with the bar. Not changed in any way, besides moving them with the tables.

Yes, this is what I mean. The relocation of the shutters to their current location doesn't align with the SCCV Horizon. If you go there, you'll see that theres a disconnect. 

19 minutes ago, KingOfThePing said:

I am also not sure what you mean by this, in the end all that was done was moving the kitchen towards the hallway by two tiles. It now fits the freezer in, too, so it's efficiency of the space used has increased. I need a better explanation here what you mean.

This is my main problem. I like that the wall has been removed, so its not separated, but I don't see the point in moving it two tiles to accomodate this. I prefered the other style (would've been better without the wall) where it was enclosed within its own corner. The current one feels like its trying to force interations between the Kitchen and the Bar - it already gets difficult to follow a conversation at the Bar with 5 seats, now with an extra 5 across the hall I can't imagine it'll be any easier. 

Again, the previous iteration just felt like a starship kitchen. Compact, efficient. This one just feels like the Aurora Kitchen plastered onto the SCCV Horizon. Theres nothing "new" about it, and it feels bigger and clunkier. 

[Lly2]

personally, I feel that the separation of the service areas is detrimental to the department. completely anecdotal, but it feels as though service activity is down even compared to the low-pop of aurora, solely due to the fact it's now split 3 ways.

on the previous map, there existed this guarantee that if the other area of service is the busy one on a given shift rather than the area you were working at, at least you could see over the counter and get involved with that RP or interact with the other member of service staff on duty, if the middle shutters were open. with the kitchen and the bar now on opposite sides of the corridor, chefs and bartenders will always be out of range of one another and unable to interact whilst on the job; that in tandem with a wall meaning that the bartender/chef is also completely unable to see or interact with any of the other patrons attending the opposite part of service, it turns activity into an active competition - if you don't manage to have people visit you personally, you'll be AFK with nothing to even see or read.

i think this problem is increased by the fact there is also the further split between two sections of the bar, giving more reason for the horizon to have the kitchen and bar able to interact, rather than less.

as far as the actual design of the internals of the kitchen, i'm not able to comment. i don't have much experience with the role.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Lly2

[KingOfThePing]

Very good point. Maybe a complete overhaul of the area needs to be done (or the, for the longest time, discussed merge of kitchen and bar into a diner-esque area. 

[FlamingLily]

To be honest I have no strong feelings either way, just let kitchen goers have access to an actual cutlery dispenser so they can eat food without just cramming it all in their face.

[Carver]

I wouldn't be happy with a merger given the kitchen already feels cramped if there's a second chef. The current bar set-up is perfect for me; a counter by the hall for people who just want to sit and socialize, plus a few secondary areas for people to have drinks while holding private conversation (and the second counter for the second bartender). I'd much like the bar areas left as-is.

Sharing working space is very awkward, and if it were merged I wouldn't actually see the value of having bartenders as a role given it'd just become a formal restaurant and they'd be effectively just waiters.

[goolie]

Honestly wouldn’t mind if some of the space from the kitchen was given to the garden and more hydroponic trays were put down. There’s about thirteen crops that NEED to planted if you want the Cook to do their job and that leaves no room for the Gardener to plant optional crops. There’s a lot of open space in the kitchen that could definitely be squashed down a little without changing the layout. I think the layout right now is totally fine but, the problem actually lies with the garden!

[Roostercat]

Regarding the seperating wall, I liked it a lot more. it added some privacy and the sense that the kitchen was its own area instead of just being carved out of the hallway's wall. I would be happy to see that returned. As for the rest of the layout, I hardly even play chef so I have no real opinion on that side.

[TrainTN]

On 18/04/2022 at 09:02, KingOfThePing said:

Very good point. Maybe a complete overhaul of the area needs to be done (or the, for the longest time, discussed merge of kitchen and bar into a diner-esque area. 

Two cooks, two servers, servers effectively being bartenders. I think that could work.

[Zer0Winds]

I main both Cook and Bartender, and I like both of the iterations of the kitchen for different reasons.

The old kitchen:

I liked the more compact nature. I was always able to see people at the counter, while I was cooking.*

The wall made it seem more like its own location.

The new kitchen:

Having a second cook isn't as cramped.

I have a bit more room to do things.**

I can see the bar, which makes it slightly less lonely if no one comes by.***

 

*You can do the same with the new layout, as long as you stay one tile to the left of the ovens, which is where most cooking is done. However, I like to stand directly in front of the oven, and I'm suddenly completely gone to anyone at the counter. Its just a nitpick.

**You can do the same with the old layout with some reorganizing. No big deal.

***You can only see the patrons, from either side. The bar can only see the kitchen patrons, the kitchen can only see the bar patrons. With this, I say there's not much of a reason to keep it like this, since honestly, that means you only see half of a conversation that wasn't involving you anyway. So, at this point, I honestly wonder what's even the point? I'd rather not have the excess noise.

 

I don't have any strong opinions on merging the kitchen/bar. I don't like the idea of two servers being "effectively" bartenders. Or servers in general. Keep bartenders as their own thing.

My actual gripes are with the bar honestly, but this isn't about the bar, this is about the kitchen, and its not major enough to actually complain about, so I leave that there. So in general, I feel like the change should be reverted. I liked the idea, but I do like the older kitchen more. And I'm down for testing ideas, I just don't think this one stuck. However, should the kitchen be reverted, I believe it should have one cook slot. Its too compact for a second cook. That's neither here nor there though.

[KingOfThePing]

To summarize:

- The wall was good, but it can be improved that the kitchen doesn't feel so detached maybe (I have some ideas for that)
- Cooks want to see their customers at all times if possible 
- More compact in general, if possible

+ the stuff carver said. Alright, I think that can be done.

 

To think about:

- Finally merge kitchen and bar into a diner as it was suggested for years now.
- Dont make that camped
- Dont reduce the number of roles (or re-shuffle their responsibilities)
- Make it cozy

 

I will work on making the current kitchen iteration better and maybe think about the diner later down the line.

 

[Zer0Winds]

Quick note about the 'seeing customers at all times' thing, I prefer it like that with the cooking part.

Having an area in the back that you can't be seen is good, lets you do sneaky things like custom name your food without people noticing... Or afk without being in view. The only two options obviously.

Or maybe that's just me.

[KingOfThePing]

An idea I had was giving the kitchen a sign, just like the bar has, to direct more people to it, when there is the seperating wall again. Initially there will be no selection because there are exactly zero (0) kitchen signs right now, but how does that sound? 
More attention through advertisment.......sounds logical, yes?

[KingOfThePing]

The current WIP build of the kitchen (still without the large kitchen sign, visible from the hallway):

[Lly2]

I'm still kinda wary of the activity being a competition, but with a sign like you mentioned above, and with the glass door at the top of the wall now rather than down the bottom, I think it could be all good. The door being at the bottom was rough, because everyone always saw the bar first; usually meant people just sat down. Now it's at the top, people will be able to see where the players are at in both areas once they enter service.

A lot less, "out of sight, out of mind" this way. I like it.

[KingOfThePing]

TO EXPLAIN ABOVE:

>Some thing have been condensed. There is no reason for two ovens (one can bake 5 things at the same time), chefs can share it. Same with the deep fryer and all other more specialized equipment. 
>Dinnerware dispenser on the top is a regular one, requested by carver
>Bottom one is accessible from the dining area, it's a plastic one, requested by carver.
>Wall has been re-added, you are safe now from the bar goers.
>Door has been added on the TOP, so you can see with who you want to socialize with.
>The most useless locker with the EFTPOS and clothes has been moved to the freezer where it is not in the fucking way.
>Window amount has been reduced (its no full front anymore) and I consider adding shutters for the remaining ones, per request by carver. 
>Vertical "starship" design has been returned, requested by Cael.
>Design has been compacted so it feels smaller but not cramped (hopefully), also requested by Cael.

 

Give me your feedback.