Suggested Cyborgs changes

[PoZe]

I decided to start this topic as an alternative to this suggestion

This is to help and improve cyborgs and potentially in future AI roles. I have read the topic above and it is clear the server is divided on this topic. There are so many good points on why Cyborgs should be removed and why they should stay. I sympathize with people who think either way. I can see it being frustrating when an engineer was going to fix a breach and was getting ready by suiting up, getting equipment, and letting colleagues know, but only to come to the breach being already fixed by the borg. But I also feel that removing them outright without at least trying to improve them would be a bad decision. A lot of people say that they need to be reworked from the ground up, but at the same time, it does not seem like currently a feasible solution, and nobody has suggested the exact required ground-up rework with details and plans. So, I thought that we should try and improve cyborg roles first at least even a bit before we decided to can it. While I do not think these suggestions could be considered "rework", I feel like they are decent and not minor. A lot of people pointed out that devs might not want or not have time to code any of these changes, to which I can say that I can work on these myself and coordinate with devs on the progress of it.

My suggestions:

1. Cyborg module selection starts limited by default. What this means is that we reduce the list of modules cyborg can select from by default. For example, have only Clerical, Service, Custodian, Miner, and Research by default (the list can be discussed).
2. Add ability for RD/Captain/CCIA to unlock cyborg's module list, meaning that if the situation requires other modules such as medical, engineer, etc then RD/Captain/CCIA has to go and enable that, and rules-wise encourage this to be done only when a situation requires that. I am thinking of having the list as individual modules toggle (Select modules to be allowed) on the RD console, which would allow a more fine-tuned selection of which modules should be unlocked for selection.
3. Allow a full list of modules to choose from during low-pop rounds. This is to account for low-pop rounds that might not have command + admins present. (This one is debatable, possibly not necessary as people pointed out that maint drones can set up engines, which seems to be the most concern during low pop).
4. (Implemented) - Make Cyborgs have access limited to the module they selected; the same way crew has limited access required for their jobs too. This could be explained lore-wise as them having lower bandwidth and capacity for encryption required to store access codes.
5. (Implemented) - Add the ability for RD/Captain/CCIA to give cyborgs access to all systems (meaning how they have it now), and rules-wise encourage this to be done only when a situation requires that. And vice versa, the ability to reset it back to module-only access, and potentially even possibly set it to only basic access which is the same as Off-Duty crew.
6. Make cyborg number of slots be tied to the population on the server. Meaning during High pop rounds allows only 1-2 cyborgs, and during low pop allow 3. (The numbers can be discussed)
7. Split research cyborg module more. I think currently that is the only one that is not split into submodules. I am not sure if it makes sense to do that for Service one as well
8. (Optional to bullet point 1). Add a module reset device that basically will reset borg as the board does. However, it is disabled by default and requires RD/Captain/CCIA to enable the device. This is so that if the situation requires some unlocked module, no machinist is present. And we have either RD/Captain or CCIA present where other heads asked CCIA to unlock it.
9. (Optional) - make cyborgs require AI or synth whitelist.
10. (Optional) - add rules(laws) to stationbounds to verify if there is a crewmember present for a task stationbound was going to do, ask crewmember if they want borg to perform this task. This would prevent "job stealing". This should be a soft rule and not hardcorely enforced to make sure bounds not having to exactly confirm every task they do, but rather ask someone else was going to do.
11. (Optional) - Lore-wise remove that cyborgification removes personality and memories. Then cyborgification will be a punishment of temporary and/or permanent servitude of an organic or IPC. I have suggested this in the thread linked above. In this case, it will allow cyborgs and androids to play as their previous characters who were forced to servitude as bounds until they serve their sentences. Then they can use their backstory of who they were and retain their personality. And then you can also roleplay their release back to their original bodies. I think this has good potential and will solve the issue people bring up of borgs being boring due to not having a personality. But since some people pointed out that they like to play borgs as they do not require to backstory and/or personality, they can then choose the "robot" option for that.

Edit:

Bullet 10 is no longer under consideration. Keeping it in the list for tracking conversations purpose only.

Edited December 23, 2022 by PoZe
Fixed grammar

[ImmortalRedshirt]

To be honest, this doesn't really fix the main issue with borg, the main issue being that it's a role that is actively told by mechanics and lore to not be a character, in what is a character-driven server. Limiting which modules can be selected can't change that.

[PoZe]

9 minutes ago, ImmortalRedshirt said:

To be honest, this doesn't really fix the main issue with borg, the main issue being that it's a role that is actively told by mechanics and lore to not be a character, in what is a character-driven server. Limiting which modules can be selected can't change that.

From reading different opinions in "Remove Cyborg" thread there seems to be either "remove them" or "keep them". In such case I do not think there is a way to "fix" them, which is why I am not saying this is a full solution, or a fix that will be done with. This is rather an improvement. I do not think that Cyborgs will be removed in any future given how divided people's opinion on their removal is. And if nothing is done in improving them, this topic will surface later again. And they will remain unchanged again for years which is something a lot of people pointed out.

Edited November 10, 2022 by PoZe

[TrainTN]

2 hours ago, ImmortalRedshirt said:

To be honest, this doesn't really fix the main issue with borg, the main issue being that it's a role that is actively told by mechanics and lore to not be a character, in what is a character-driven server. Limiting which modules can be selected can't change that.

Could you explain what you mean that they can't be characters? Cyborgs I understand because they're powered by a damaged brain that can barely think for itself anymore. Robots depend on the complexity of design and range from mindless automaton to almost if not outright sapient. Positronic stationbounds, however, can easily have personalities and thoughts of their own, even though they are chained to external programming and authority.

I'll also mention that, at least on the wiki, I can't find any guide to roleplaying stationbounds. The AI gets quite a bit of detail, but I haven't found anything aimed at borgs and robots.

[ImmortalRedshirt]

2 minutes ago, TrainTN said:

Could you explain what you mean that they can't be characters?

From the Synthetics page

Quote

[...]the preparation for insertion, and the completed insertion, leaves the brain damaged, suspending things like personality and memory. Once the procedure is completed, the MMI controls chemical levels and electronic activity in the brain to produce desired results in the form of thoughts and actions. Laws also dictate how the unit proceeds, as it is still consciously aware of itself.

Their inception destroys the subject's core self, and in its place, forces a set of commands that must never be erred from. They are built to serve, and only to serve, the thought of doing anything more than that, of saying more than needs to be said, would never cross their minds. So this leaves us with two issues.

1. The synthetic player takes what is quoted to heart, and plays an automaton that exists only to serve and feels no needs. This is not ideal, as such a thing is hardly interesting to interact with. Or...
2. The synthetic player gives them some form of mannerism to set them apart from the standard. They want to make a personality, but do not wish to take the additional step to making a full-fledged character by side-stepping the problem of imagining needs and a story. As we've seen above, this flies counter to borg lore.

We have a galaxy full of diverse worlds, each one hosting a vast array of potentially interesting people to play as(to say nothing of the machines that are also designed to serve but are given the ability to think for themselves). So with all of this untapped potential, it doesn't really make sense to give players the option to ignore all that and play a role that's designed to only interface with the admittedly extremely mid mechanics of SS13(and be better at doing it than the characters.)

[TrainTN]

23 minutes ago, ImmortalRedshirt said:

snip

What you have written applies to cyborgs. This does not apply to robots or androids, which can and do function very differently within the lore, and therefore can and should be played differently. Most stationbound synthetics are likely robots or positronics anyway, which includes the machines designed to serve but have the ability to think for themselves that you mention, just in restrained circumstances.

[Sparky_hotdog]

6 hours ago, TrainTN said:

What you have written applies to cyborgs. This does not apply to robots or androids, which can and do function very differently within the lore, and therefore can and should be played differently. Most stationbound synthetics are likely robots or positronics anyway, which includes the machines designed to serve but have the ability to think for themselves that you mention, just in restrained circumstances.

Part of the issue stems from the fact that shipbounds are absolutely ancient, and have always felt shoehorned into the lore imo. The exact details about what makes something a robot vs an android isn't set out anywhere to my knowledge, but as I understand, Robots are purely instruction based; They follow their laws and do very little else. Androids on the other hand may have more of a personality, but are still held to laws. In other words shipbounds are at best IPCs with more mechanics and less personality.

The argument that they are useful on low pop rounds still somewhat confuses me. Sure, when the engine hasn't been set up I am very happy when a shipbound activates to fix power, but that's no different from if an engineer wakes up. The only difference is that shipbounds, whether you agree with my above point or not, are often not treated as characters in practice (Key word, often. There are some exceptions), which seems an odd thing to promote on low pop. 2 hours without power sucks. 2 hours without another character to talk to sucks more imo.

[Fluffy]

3 hours ago, Sparky_hotdog said:

2 hours without another character to talk to sucks more imo

If the popcap really is two people and what you want to do is just chatting, I feel like you're probably best off using a chat program or the OOC, if someone is playing a robot they likely aren't too much in the mood to chat to begin with

[TrainTN]

8 hours ago, Sparky_hotdog said:

Part of the issue stems from the fact that shipbounds are absolutely ancient, and have always felt shoehorned into the lore imo. The exact details about what makes something a robot vs an android isn't set out anywhere to my knowledge, but as I understand, Robots are purely instruction based; They follow their laws and do very little else. Androids on the other hand may have more of a personality, but are still held to laws. In other words shipbounds are at best IPCs with more mechanics and less personality.

https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Synthetics

Everything I've said comes from the wiki. Robots don't use positronic brains, androids do. And like I said earlier, there isn't a lot of guidance on how to roleplay these things properly, and I'm starting to think that there should be.

[ImmortalRedshirt]

Alright, since the improve don't remove crowd seems to have won the day, let's drop some improvements:

1. An overwhelming amount of complaints towards borgs seems to be directed at medical and engineering borgs, two departments that have a considerable impact on a crisis and require a decent amount of skill to play, which makes actually pulling off a difficult task with the equipment at your disposal satisfying. This feeling is taken away when a machine with no downsides and all the tools in the world rushes in and does everything you can do, but better. So, the best thing to do in this case is to have them go the way of the secborg and remove them.
2. Borg lore is like a pizza cutter, it's all edge and no point. Going off experience, borgs are much more memorable when their grimendarken aspects are ignored by both the player and whoever they're interacting with(shout-out to Wee Woo here.) Having borgs be written to have no personality whatsoever due to how we create them is just plain boring, edgy, and opens the way for powergamers who just want to Do The Job with no roleplay at all.

[TrainTN]

50 minutes ago, ImmortalRedshirt said:

Alright, since the improve don't remove crowd seems to have won the day, let's drop some improvements:

Quote

So, the best thing to do in this case is to have them go the way of the secborg and remove them.

That doesn't sounds like "improve don't remove" to me.

[PoZe]

I would like people to reply with consideration of my suggestions in the post. Because currently most replies have been debates not fully related to the post's suggestions. I need feedback about my suggestions, so that we can craft a good plan of improvement to the cyborg's role.

[TrainTN]

3 hours ago, PoZe said:

I would like people to reply with consideration of my suggestions in the post. Because currently most replies have been debates not fully related to the post's suggestions. I need feedback about my suggestions, so that we can craft a good plan of improvement to the cyborg's role.

Apologies. To address your original post, I find these suggestions add a ton of rules to the role that would be a significant hassle to jump through; in a crisis that would call for engineering and medical synthetics, there is a good chance there would be no time or personnel to reset the synthetics to the needed modules. But I do agree with some of your ideas, like restricting a stationbound's access to only its module's department, and probably maintenance as well just in case. I think we should emphasize that all stationbounds are considered subordinate to crewmembers of their chosen department and take orders from them without question. At the same time, we should make it clear how to roleplay stationbounds and emphasize the different varieties of them and how they may behave. Cyborgs may be mindless servitors running on wetware, but robots and androids should be allowed to have personalities to an extent. Let people be R2-D2.

Going off the current wiki guide, the impression I have is that stationbounds may have experienced too much powercreep over time, and modules should be reworked and scaled down somewhat in their abilities so that they can be effective, but not complete supermen that can do everything and replace swathes of the department. For example, I'd changed the Medical module into a more pure Surgical module to make it a dedicated surgeon machine with the effective diagnostic scanners but limited medications, and let the Rescue module be a physician/first responder equivalent that has the superior medications instead but loses its more advanced scanners. I hope that this would achieve a balance of specialization, like Surgeons and Physicians and First Responders have, so that stationbounds can fill gaps in the department as deemed necessary.

I am unsure what to do with the Engineering modules, Engineering is a broad category with no cleanly defined sub-categories to fit things into. One of them engineers and builds stuff, the other engineers slightly less and builds slightly more. They both seem bloated to me, lots of synthesizers they probably don't need. Perhaps a change in focus would help: let Engineering be more about regular maintenance and small-scale construction while the Construction module could be reworked into a Damage Control module that's more about rapid emergency repairs? Since robotics was split off from Science, you could drop the Research module's robotics-themed gear and give them to the Engineering module so it can help maintain other synths and exosuits when there's no machinists available, make that more of its job while leaving construction to the engineer crew and the other module.

Mining module is fine, though I don't know how much they need an RFD and metal rod synthesizer. Custodial module is fine, people rarely play janitor in my experience and its loadout is very simple and straightforward. Service is... eh? I'd shrink its drink synthesizer to something more basic, I guess. Maybe split Hydroponics into its own separate module so it's less of a "does everything" synth and a player can focus entirely on plants if they wish. Clerical module is a meme.

My ideas are far from perfect, and barely concrete, but I'd prefer to make synths more specialized in their departments so that while they're still very good at doing things, they're limited by programming from doing everything, which I think is the most significant complaint about them. I think the ideal to aim for is that they should be competent and capable assistants to the crew without completely outshining them.

[Omicega]

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

Cyborg module selection starts limited by default. What this means is that we reduce the list of modules cyborg can select from by default. For example, have only Clerical, Service, Custodian, Miner, and Research by default (the list can be discussed).

Yes, please. Trim these cyborgs from character select at least -- preferably remove them altogether.

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

Add ability for RD/Captain/CCIA to unlock cyborg's module list, meaning that if the situation requires other modules such as medical, engineer, etc then RD/Captain/CCIA has to go and enable that, and rules-wise encourage this to be done only when a situation requires that. I am thinking of having the list as individual modules toggle (Select modules to be allowed) on the RD console, which would allow a more fine-tuned selection of which modules should be unlocked for selection.

This is too complicated. I'd just let any machinist reassign cyborgs into the more problematic modules and have it policed from there as an administrative issue (cyborgs requesting to be made into engi/med borgs when the department is already well-stocked, for example).

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

Allow a full list of modules to choose from during low-pop rounds. This is to account for low-pop rounds that might not have command + admins present. (This one is debatable, possibly not necessary as people pointed out that maint drones can set up engines, which seems to be the most concern during low pop).

I still think these people need to just bite the bullet and join as regular non-cyborg characters. Nothing is stopping anyone from joining as an actual doctor or engineer to do the engine. I'd like to see maintenance drones get the axe just as much as I wanted to see cyborgs get them so while that's an alternative too, I don't support that either as a long-term fix.

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

Make Cyborgs have access limited to the module they selected; the same way crew has limited access required for their jobs too. This could be explained lore-wise as them having lower bandwidth and capacity for encryption required to store access codes.

Hard agree. One of the biggest issue with medical cyborgs particularly has been their ability to take a fat dump on first responders especially, just by having a ton of access that job doesn't -- probably their single biggest advantage over them, but far from the only one.

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

Add the ability for RD/Captain/CCIA to give cyborgs access to all systems (meaning how they have it now), and rules-wise encourage this to be done only when a situation requires that. And vice versa, the ability to reset it back to module-only access, and potentially even possibly set it to only basic access which is the same as Off-Duty crew.

I don't agree with this either. The access should stay limited.

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

Make cyborg number of slots be tied to the population on the server. Meaning during High pop rounds allows only 1-2 cyborgs, and during low pop allow 3. (The numbers can be discussed)

I think this is a good idea although I'd just lock it to 2 slots regardless of population. I don't think having more cyborgs (and less actual characters to talk to) on lower pops really helps matters.

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

Split research cyborg module more. I think currently that is the only one that is not split into submodules. I am not sure if it makes sense to do that for Service one as well

I don't know enough about the research cyborg to comment on this, other than a vague kind of memory that people used to call it the go-to 'powergame' cyborg because of the tools it has?

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

(Optional to bullet point 1). Add a module reset device that basically will reset borg as the board does. However, it is disabled by default and requires RD/Captain/CCIA to enable the device. This is so that if the situation requires some unlocked module, no machinist is present. And we have either RD/Captain or CCIA present where other heads asked CCIA to unlock it.

This seems kind of niche? How often is a single cyborg needing to be reset right now a critical thing in-round? I don't think it comes up that much.

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

(Optional) - make cyborgs require AI or synth whitelist.

No, because I don't think whitelists solve everything when it comes to abuse of a role's ability to influence the round.

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

(Optional) - add rules(laws) to stationbounds to verify if there is a crewmember present for a task stationbound was going to do, ask crewmember if they want borg to perform this task. This would prevent "job stealing". This should be a soft rule and not hardcorely enforced to make sure bounds not having to exactly confirm every task they do, but rather ask someone else was going to do.

This sounds like an absolute ballache to enforce to the point where it's basically impossible. I don't think you can reasonably ask server staff to comb through conversations and stuff like this, even on a soft basis -- and if it isn't enforced, I feel like it'll just be ignored.

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

(Optional) - Lore-wise remove that cyborgification removes personality and memories. Then cyborgification will be a punishment of temporary and/or permanent servitude of an organic or IPC. I have suggested this in the thread linked above. In this case, it will allow cyborgs and androids to play as their previous characters who were forced to servitude as bounds until they serve their sentences. Then they can use their backstory of who they were and retain their personality. And then you can also roleplay their release back to their original bodies. I think this has good potential and will solve the issue people bring up of borgs being boring due to not having a personality. But since some people pointed out that they like to play borgs as they do not require to backstory and/or personality, they can then choose the "robot" option for that.

I'm like 90% sure synth lore doesn't support the idea that you can transfer a 'bound' positronic into a full unbound IPC, at least for on-ship character concepts. I don't think this would work out due to that -- even if it would, I think the kind of situations you're going to see CCIA mandate a sentence as harsh as this come up maybe once a year at most, so it's still super niche.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Omicega

[Sparky_hotdog]

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

Cyborg module selection starts limited by default. What this means is that we reduce the list of modules cyborg can select from by default. For example, have only Clerical, Service, Custodian, Miner, and Research by default (the list can be discussed).

Add ability for RD/Captain/CCIA to unlock cyborg's module list, meaning that if the situation requires other modules such as medical, engineer, etc then RD/Captain/CCIA has to go and enable that, and rules-wise encourage this to be done only when a situation requires that. I am thinking of having the list as individual modules toggle (Select modules to be allowed) on the RD console, which would allow a more fine-tuned selection of which modules should be unlocked for selection.

I strongly agree with removing engi and med borgs from the default selection for the reasons others have covered above. If there's an emergency and the ship needs one, having a machinist be able to allow them seems fine.

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

Allow a full list of modules to choose from during low-pop rounds. This is to account for low-pop rounds that might not have command + admins present. (This one is debatable, possibly not necessary as people pointed out that maint drones can set up engines, which seems to be the most concern during low pop).

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

Make cyborg number of slots be tied to the population on the server. Meaning during High pop rounds allows only 1-2 cyborgs, and during low pop allow 3. (The numbers can be discussed)

I still maintain that being more lenient with cyborgs on low pop because there's less people, for the lack of a better term, feels wrong. We have a lot of really cool lore for people to explore and make normal characters with, and discouraging folks from that seems wrong. I've no problem with someone making a cyborg if they want to play a cyborg, but giving extra slots or modules because there's no engineers feels like you're asking players to make a cyborg just to set up the engine. Idk, maybe that's just me.

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

Make Cyborgs have access limited to the module they selected; the same way crew has limited access required for their jobs too. This could be explained lore-wise as them having lower bandwidth and capacity for encryption required to store access codes.

Add the ability for RD/Captain/CCIA to give cyborgs access to all systems (meaning how they have it now), and rules-wise encourage this to be done only when a situation requires that. And vice versa, the ability to reset it back to module-only access, and potentially even possibly set it to only basic access which is the same as Off-Duty crew.

Access totally makes sense to remove. It is one of the ways that every borg is superior to their crew counterparts, and honestly I can't think of a genuine reason for them to have complete access to the ship, other than it being the status quo. I don't think you ever need to give a cyborg all access; If the situation is that dire there's probably other people you can give it to.

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

(Optional to bullet point 1). Add a module reset device that basically will reset borg as the board does. However, it is disabled by default and requires RD/Captain/CCIA to enable the device. This is so that if the situation requires some unlocked module, no machinist is present. And we have either RD/Captain or CCIA present where other heads asked CCIA to unlock it.

I'm not a fan of "If missing X job, have work around for Y job", particularly if the first job has fairly few responsibilities. Removing part of the machinist's job in an emergency disregards the value of the machinist imo.

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

(Optional) - make cyborgs require AI or synth whitelist.

Setting aside whether whitelists necessarily work for the role this is suggesting, the process for these whitelists just isn't compatible with borg: AI whitelists are in my eyes quite a large application (requiring an interview) which seems over the top for borg; Synthetic whitelists meanwhile are centred around IPC lore and your understanding of that, and would involve asking any new borg or IPC players to go through the bother of applying for both even if they have no intention of using one or the other.

On 10/11/2022 at 00:33, PoZe said:

(Optional) - add rules(laws) to stationbounds to verify if there is a crewmember present for a task stationbound was going to do, ask crewmember if they want borg to perform this task. This would prevent "job stealing". This should be a soft rule and not hardcorely enforced to make sure bounds not having to exactly confirm every task they do, but rather ask someone else was going to do.

Hard no here. Adding more laws just complicates the law set a little more, and this is a pretty grey area to operate in anyway. As much as I hate to say it, this would be better enforced with OOC policy or just simple courtesy (Don't nick other people's jobs). Medical's a good (Though not perfect) example of just expecting people to stay in their lane.

[Desven]

I've said it before, limit borg's access to one department. Give them head access if you want to be generous, but they shouldn't have unfettered access.

I've said previously that borgs should also be restricted to one job, but frankly I'd like to see less engineering/medical borgs, so I'm now okay with them changing modules if required.

I still fully believe the best solution would be to remove the job, maybe just keeping menial mining cyborgs which justify borgification lore. I'm adamant that borgs (and AI, to that extent), don't really have place in HRP servers.

 

And no, I don't think Viax are their equal. I've seen plenty of interesting Viax before. But if removing borgs promotes more people to play Vaurcae, I wouldn't complain.

[PoZe]

Addressing the concerns and comments about bullet points 2 and 5:

In the thread I linked in the post about removal of cyborgs there were couple-few players who play command who said they appreciate having cyborg around during intense situations and man the department when needed. For those specific purposes I think having both bullets 2 and 5(Allowing RD/Captain/CCIA control cyborg's module selection and access at any point via consoles) is a good idea at least when we roll out their changes. Because I think leaving this to be a decision that command players or admins can make in round will allow for best flexibility, and it would be a good compromise for the people who are pro and against the bullets that remove engi/medical and access. And if this turns out to be bad idea I can always remove such feature, the removal of it will be pretty simple. This way we are doing this in an iterative way, and can back up the decision by testing how the idea works.

 

Addressing specific comment:

On 15/11/2022 at 12:40, Omicega said:

This seems kind of niche? How often is a single cyborg needing to be reset right now a critical thing in-round? I don't think it comes up that much.

That is exactly what it is for. An edge case situation, an oddball. Which is probably why addition of such thing shouldn't impact the outcome too much, but rather be nice quality of life feature. Again, this can be removed easily if it proves to be more negative than positive addition.

Edited November 17, 2022 by PoZe

[wowzewow]

My two cents is that this is a wonderful idea of solving the mechanical issues that plague Cyborgs.

Even if this does not solve the lore or roleplay implications, it is definitely a step up from what we have currently.

Personally I feel it is too much to ask for ONE PERSON to solve a major roleplay issue, which probably requires a lot more input from lore devs.

So, I'm up for implementing this.

[PoZe]

Update: PR posted for Cyborg's access rework which are bullets 4 and 5 here https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/15157.

@Chada1 proposed a good idea on instead of splitting cyborg's into submodules more and also removing engi + medical by default to instead make Engi, medical, service and possibly research start with minimal tools by default, then add progression system via robotic's upgrades that will allow them to unlock more tools they have at present state.

[Fluffy]

On 10/11/2022 at 01:33, PoZe said:

Make Cyborgs have access limited to the module they selected; the same way crew has limited access required for their jobs too. This could be explained lore-wise as them having lower bandwidth and capacity for encryption required to store access codes.

This feels like a major restriction, if we are at lowpop for example the borg should be able to access the SM to start it, pharmacy to help make some med, help open the armory or even the crew armory for when the antag(s) go loud, not to mention this would make the borg itself an uninteresting target for the antag to acquire, thus further reducing the (already slim) interest in emagging it

 

On 10/11/2022 at 01:33, PoZe said:

• Add the ability for RD/Captain/CCIA to give cyborgs access to all systems (meaning how they have it now), and rules-wise encourage this to be done only when a situation requires that. And vice versa, the ability to reset it back to module-only access, and potentially even possibly set it to only basic access which is the same as Off-Duty crew.

It's likely that when the all access is useful the most, you won't have any of them to begin with, and even if you do doing this access change would be very down the priority list to the point it will likely not be done most of the times even if useful

 

The only "mechanical" change I see as both useful and wanted is to ask the borgs to verify that noone else is present to do something before they do it, I can see and much rather prefer a system that would say to the borg that access engineering that an engineer is present and not deceased and ask it to verify what to do with it, or even a verb that lists the departments and on the side a manned/unmanned indicator (maybe in a verb), and at best a way to change the access from an all access to a limitation (not vice versa) present in the console of each department, so that whoever is manning the department (or an RD/command for everyone) can negate the access to the borg to said department area if need be

[TrainTN]

1 hour ago, PoZe said:

Update: PR posted for Cyborg's access rework which are bullets 4 and 5 here https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/15157.

@Chada1 proposed a good idea on instead of splitting cyborg's into submodules more and also removing engi + medical by default to instead make Engi, medical, service and possibly research start with minimal tools by default, then add progression system via robotic's upgrades that will allow them to unlock more tools they have at present state.

Giving the stationbounds tech progression seems alright to me, so long as their starting basic tools are still good enough to assist their department. Also the Machinist should probably require approval from the department or a head of staff before upgrading stationbounds to the more advanced tools, so that you don't get a superborg without the department's permission. It lines up with my suggestion to scale synths' abilities back, without throwing out everything they have.

Simplify the modules to serve as "basic" versions, then create "advanced" modules that have more tools and abilities but must be unlocked by RnD. I think that's a decent idea.

Edited November 22, 2022 by TrainTN

[Chada1]

👋Sorry I've been super busy and hadn't even known about the current 'borg vote or even the thread or anything, I'd have had a big text wall to drop in the thread about their current state, how they managed to get here, and where we could take them in the future etc if I had known, but by the time I managed to realize there was even a vote to remove 'borgs the thread was already locked and the poll finished, so like, ooof.

I've actually put a LOOOOT of work in trying to change 'borgs on this server to not be despised by so many people and to be much more roleplay heavy role, so when I learned how close the vote was to remove them I reacted a bit negatively on Discord, so for sure I have the interest to try to work on them again if it's desired, and this change I'd be willing to tackle, again if it's desired. I'll likely toss another independent thread up when it's closer to being PR'd on the github, so everyone will get a chance to give feedback/offer changes or ideas etc
 

5 minutes ago, TrainTN said:

It lines up with my suggestion to scale synths' abilities back, without throwing out everything they have.

Simplify the modules to serve as "basic" versions, then create "advanced" modules that have more tools and abilities but must be unlocked by RnD. I think that's a decent idea.

This is basically the idea, and this way 'borgs can still be powerful around the mid round, but by then the Crew will have better equipment as well and if stuff like chemistry was going to be done it'd likely already be done, so hopefully it solves a large part of the problems I read. 

[PoZe]

11 hours ago, Fluffy said:

This feels like a major restriction, if we are at lowpop for example the borg should be able to access the SM to start it, pharmacy to help make some med, help open the armory or even the crew armory for when the antag(s) go loud, not to mention this would make the borg itself an uninteresting target for the antag to acquire, thus further reducing the (already slim) interest in emagging it

Borgs still can have all access if RD or captain changes it on Robotic Control Console. And also emagged borgs automatically get their access unlock and it blocks people from being able to change it for them on Robotic console. Also special borgs like synidie, combat, military retain all access with also it being immutable to be changed

[Montyfatcat]

17 hours ago, PoZe said:

then add progression system via robotic's upgrades that will allow them to unlock more tools they have at present state.

I've got mixed feelings on this. On the one hand I enjoy having something to do, but on the other hand borgs have this weird habit of never asking shit over radio, they always demand to talk in person in my experience. I don't like the idea of getting "machinist to workshop" for a borg to ask if they can have upgrades, it already happens currently with borgs asking for VTEC even when there's no mining (seriously please read the manifest before dragging the machinist away from what they're doing). I'm not opposed to this idea, but I'd prefer if they were either something that could be activated via a console in the machinist workshop (please make it less narrow first though holy fuck it's cramped) than something built and hand installed, since doing upgrades like that can get a little irritating at times when upgrades aren't maxed or when materials are super short because the new machinist built a mech without asking anyone. Alternatively, you open up the borg and use the multitool on it to unlock those tools after a bit of research has been done, I prefer this because it means that giving borgs more tools can be a part of the emag process rather than a freebie when they get emagged.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Montyfatcat

[TrainTN]

1 hour ago, Montyfatcat said:

but on the other hand borgs have this weird habit of never asking shit over radio, they always demand to talk in person in my experience. I don't like the idea of getting "machinist to workshop" for a borg to ask if they can have upgrades

That's why I think as part of the change, there should be a new regulation requiring the stationbound to request permission to upgrade from its respective department, and then the department ask the machinists "Hey, can our synth get upgraded?" instead of the synth just shoving their way into the workshop and asking for all the toys on their own with no oversight. Maybe add some paperwork for it that the synth has to present. Synth upgrading should require the approval of the department's head of staff, or a member of the department in the absence of a head of staff. Only if there's absolutely no one in the department may the machinist be able to grant the upgrades themselves. How does that sound to you?