Guarantee of Staff Age

[Coalf]

Staff have been talking and enforcing the rule of "This server is 13 up" on the server and Discord a lot more.

I believe this has left a blind spot, which is the staff itself.

Adminstaff and Modstaff, in particular, enforce these rules, which means they're the most likely to get exposed to NSFW, graphic, violent, or illegal content. ( I am excluding Lore/CCIA/Coders as those aren't required to view harmful content for rule enforcement.)

Logically, minors should not be on the rule enforcement team, and as of now, the only thing stopping them is a single question that asks how old they are. This is easily lied about, and there wasn't a ruling on underage admins before. I started when I wasn't 18.

Thus, I believe that Adminstaff/Modstaff and other staff which deals with OOC rule enforcement should provide legal proof of their age within the confines of privacy laws. I believe the current existing staff should go through this check if this passes. And from then on, every applicant should provide proof before they are added to the team.

I would propose an ID card with all identifying information censored except the date of birth. Logically, only shared with a Headmin or the admin who is doing the interview.  Alternatively, more hacksawed solutions could be taking a picture of themselves buying an alcoholic drink, with a date.  Doing a voice check in VC (although this is faulty, but better than nothing). Or simply showing their face (Again, flawed, but it's better than just asking).

Edited Tuesday at 15:21 by Coalf

[CampinKiller]

I'm not submitting any form of government ID to anyone on this server nor am I going to ask someone to submit theirs either

[Loorey]

I genuinely cannot tell if this is another attempt at baiting by you, or not. But let's assume you mean this.

If we are going by your vague reasoning of "...they're the most likely to get exposed..." then we should make this entire server 18+ and have everyone provide identification at entrance, because if (a bad actor, community member or whoever not) talks about NSFW things or NSFW-leaning things - what here makes us more exposed to the content than anyone else that is also on the server? Your reasoning has zero foundation, really.

Beyond that, I think I can confidently say all of the modmin team is at least 18 or above from interactions and their applications alone. 

[Coalf]

1 minute ago, Loorey said:

I genuinely cannot tell if this is another attempt at baiting by you, or not. But let's assume you mean this.

If we are going by your vague reasoning of "...they're the most likely to get exposed..." then we should make this entire server 18+ and have everyone provide identification at entrance, because if (a bad actor, community member or whoever not) talks about NSFW things or NSFW-leaning things - what here makes us more exposed to the content than anyone else that is also on the server? Your reasoning has zero foundation, really.

Beyond that, I think I can confidently say all of the modmin team is at least 18 or above from interactions and their applications alone. 

 

The rule enforcement team investigates (presumably, maybe this has changed) not only people saying naughty words or posting a bad picture. SS13 is a game full of very odd people, and historically, there have been many more serious cases that required genuine long-form investigation, which also meant long-term engagement with the inappropriate content. Not to mention the many times a griefer will simply harass an admin or spam them with death threats.

To simplify it.
While everyone can have their house burn down, a fireman is going to be exposed to much more fire than the average person. So I believe it would be good if the firemen were adults.

I would rather be secure in knowing the person who is volunteering to deal with some of the worst things in SS13 is an adult. This isn't to prove a point or be an ageist. It is simply an increased degree of assurance. As I said, a written confirmation of age would be the best and safest. But there are other (more flawed) ways of doing this.

Lastly, entering a thread saying "I don't know if you are being serious or not," then completely misreading (misunderstanding?) what I said, does not make me feel very assured that you have any idea if someone is an adult over text or their application alone.

[Coalf]

3 hours ago, CampinKiller said:

I'm not submitting any form of government ID to anyone on this server nor am I going to ask someone to submit theirs either

As demonstrated in this application, there are many ways to show one's age without revealing their ID. The point isn't to doxx admins, but rather to simply complicate the sign-up process for someone who would potentially be a teenager and to better check the current team. Which is why I included two other alternatives to showing ID. An ID is simply the most objectively provable, and came to mind as the simplest and most obvious solution.

[LforLouiseeee]

Quote

I would propose an ID card with all identifying information censored except the date of birth. Logically, only shared with a Headmin or the admin who is doing the interview.

The only people who will ever be seeing my IDs are HIS MAJESTY'S ((THE KING!!!)) revenue and customs (for when I evade taxes) and the DVSA (for when I drive drunk).

Quote

Taking a picture of themselves buying an alcoholic drink, with a date.

I don't drink alcoholic stuff (much), my fiancée would kill me.

Quote

Doing a voice check in VC (although this is faulty, but better than nothing)

Very faulty. I'm mute - I do not have the ability to speak.

Quote

Or simply showing their face

No way I (or many other people) are comfortable showing our faces to folks. Besides, I'm told I look 17 (thanks to that one girl at Morrisons that one time), so, that's out of the question.

 

With all that considered, if I were to ever apply to become a mod (or in the future, admin) ((Which I won't anyway 'cos OOC moderation no longer appeals to me)), I would be completely restricted, even though I am, in fact, 21.

[Stripes]

A lot of these replies are a little combative, when ultimately the issue is above what you could reasonably do to ask of people to show they're adults without a violation of privacy.

This has been the hot button issue for everyone from internet censorship in the US to, how other servers elsewhere handle it. They handle it through you sending a (very heavily edited) image of your ID with all identifying features removed next to a slip of paper with the date on it, which obviously has its own bevy of issues from everyone with an ability to edit a photo to people savvy enough to check for metadata on images. 

Ultimately, there has to be compromise somewhere on the chain, and... unless someone's willing to remove their anonymity for the sake of the rule, it might just not be feasible. No one wants to provide their ID to the internet (look at how the UK is trying to enforce an 18+ check on Discord right now!) and I'd say that it'd require a top down motion, or just hoping it doesn't happen, which is unfortunately very much hoping in spite of odds after a certain point.

[Coalf]

Stripes usefully pointed out, nobody is demanding the whole ID. You can just black out the whole thing except for the date. Something I already said in the initial proposal. So I'd like to use this to ask the staff team to respect the rules of this forum and read the whole thread before posting in it. 

"Someone can edit theirs or check metadata."

1) The point is to complicate the process, not to make it impossible to bypass. The more steps there are, the less likely someone is to put in the effort to bypass it. It's important to acknowledge there is a limit to what the team can do. My point is to be a tiny bit more strict than a checkbox that goes "are you over the age of 18?" 
2) You would be sending this picture to literally 1 person, an existing admin (or a headmin). If you do not trust an existing admin not to datamine a picture and dox you, then genuinely, why are you applying to be a moderator on such a server.

[Shimmer]

Here's the thing; ultimately, bar sending the staff team governmental identification (which no one is willing to do for pretty obvious reasons), any suggestion to 'prove' someone is 18 can be easily faked by someone dedicated enough to get the spot to be willing to write an application.

This is meant to weed out those specific liars who are bound to get through anyways, at the cost of making the process needlessly uncomfortable for everyone else if not outright infringe on their privacy. Not everyone wants to have their voice, or face, or a blurred version of their documents known. And I'm not speaking for myself, since I have posted the first two, but this suggestion is going to end up dissuading people from applying to moderator positions period.

[Melariara]

5 hours ago, CampinKiller said:

I'm not submitting any form of government ID to anyone on this server nor am I going to ask someone to submit theirs either

Basically this.

[Carver]

It’s entirely trivial to work around any sort of age check if you know where to look. There’s not really a good way for a private individual to verify another’s age without completely stripping away someone’s anonymity. Much as I’d love SS13 overall to have zero minors, it’s entirely unfeasible, the best you can do is attempt to remove any dangerous material from the community as a whole.

[Fyni]

As someone who has suffered directly due internet people knowing my name and date of birth, to the point there was police involvement and court actions, I will never provide my actual ID to something as trivial as the Aurora team. In the words of LforLouise

3 hours ago, LforLouiseeee said:

The only people who will ever be seeing my IDs are HIS MAJESTY'S ((THE KING!!!)) revenue and customs (for when I evade taxes) and the DVSA (for when I drive drunk).

Any of the proposed "other methods" to verify ID as so laughably easy to fake, that their value is none exsistant.

As many 18+ sites who are been forced to ID check UK visitors are stating, there is no way to do this in a way that either is completely worthless by how easy it is to bypass, or a complete infringement on privacy in the case of a leak (assuming whichever "authority" is applying the check will not misuse the data themselves.) I will not link them directly, but you can easily find statements from many of these websites about it.

I know many of the staff team. We talk, I like to say we're friends. I know enough about them, their lives, the way they talk that I am willing to go on record and say I do not believe a single member of the current (active) mod/admin team is under 18, or even under 20.

 

[Coalf]

I typed up a really big and handsome post but it logged me out.

Lightning Round:

"My government ID" - Repeatedly conflating a fully blacked-out ID card except for one window, with posting the whole ID card is, at this point, a malicious misinterpretation meant to ellicit an easy "And then the whole bus stood up and clapped". As Stripes suggested, I think a slip of paper with a Ckey, current date, and a completely blanked ID except the date of birth is a perfect cross of private, secure, and hard to fake. Not to mention, it would allow admins to no longer admit their age to the whole server, as that field could be taken out. Which would help prevent cases of cyberstalking.

"It's easy to fake" - No, no, it really isn't. It IS easy to grab a fake ID off of an internet, it is much harder to photoshop a convincing physical timestamp into it. And if a child is stealing their ID from their parents, well at that point that's a family issue not a server issue. There are limits to all systems. We can put a warning not to put forks in microwaves, but we cannot anticipate putting grenades in it.

"People can get through this with effort" - There is a gap 3 miles wide between the effort it takes to fake a photo with a timestamp and the effort it takes to go "I am 18 I just look 15" on an application. 

"UK law and 18+ sites" - This is irrelevant. I am not asking for an entire ID. The issue for them is mostly traffic, as mass traffic requires mass identification, which requires bots to simply identify basic signs of an ID. I assume the staff team does not have the traffic of pornhub, so checking should be a lot safer. Not to mention, they've admitted in 2023 to hosting illegal content knowingly and accepting money from advertisements. So I do not give a shit about them. 

"We are friends and we trust each other" - Okay, that's a perfect environment for such a system then.

Arguments I agree with:

"This is uncomfortable" - Valid reason to oppose this, and no way to argue against this. It's emotional, yes, but it's a video game, and those should not make you uncomfortable. It's why it is a policy suggestion. I simply urge you to consider whether this comfort offsets the potential ramifications that might come of this right now, or down the line.

"The other suggestions are laughable." - Yes, I already said they're flawed in the proposition. Because they were alternatives. Because I am not trying to "le ebin goddem trolge XDDD" the admin team. I am trying to meet them all down the middle. I admit my responses had been snippy and curt yesterday, because the first two posts were already trying to poison the whole discussion. The date of birth idea is simply, I believe, the best cross between security and anonymity. Yes, other alternatives are easier to fake, but I believe ANYTHING is better than nothing.

If the administration does not consider that a concern. Well, I hope nothing happens in the future. But I would at least like to suggest that the moderator sign-up rules be updated to include that rule enforcement staff should be above 18 years of age.

[Fyni]

2 hours ago, Coalf said:

"My government ID" - Repeatedly conflating a fully blacked-out ID card except for one window, with posting the whole ID card is, at this point, a malicious misinterpretation meant to ellicit an easy "And then the whole bus stood up and clapped". As Stripes suggested, I think a slip of paper with a Ckey, current date, and a completely blanked ID except the date of birth is a perfect cross of private, secure, and hard to fake. Not to mention, it would allow admins to no longer admit their age to the whole server, as that field could be taken out. Which would help prevent cases of cyberstalking.

"It's easy to fake" - No, no, it really isn't. It IS easy to grab a fake ID off of an internet, it is much harder to photoshop a convincing physical timestamp into it. And if a child is stealing their ID from their parents, well at that point that's a family issue not a server issue. There are limits to all systems. We can put a warning not to put forks in microwaves, but we cannot anticipate putting grenades in it.

In what world is this hard to fake? As a teenager I regually was able to get my hands on my parents IDs and the like. Useless to buy things with - there is a picture and as a teen I was obviously not older - but 100% useable for your proposition.

It is completely worthless as an age verification meathod.

[Coalf]

5 minutes ago, Fyni said:

In what world is this "hard to fake"? As a teenager I regually was able to get my hands on my parents IDs and the like. Useless to buy things with - there is a picture and as a teen I was obviously not older - but 100% useable for your proposition.

It is completely worthless as an age verification meathod.

Again, much harder to steal your parents ID and take a photo of it in secret with a snippet of paper, unless your parents also allow you to just take photos of their IDs. At which point, like I said, eventually it's not on the staff, it's on the parents. As I said, there is just a line we have to draw on how far we can take internet safety. Full ID? I don't trust admins enough for that. No ID? I don't trust the admins on that. Date of birth? I believe this is the best compromise.

To counter anecdotal evidence with my own. My parents did not let me just grab their IDs william nilliam. When I was at home without them, they worked, and their IDs were with them. When they were home, they would have spotted me doing that. So I never considered doing it. Even though I was in situations in which I wanted to buy alcohol over the internet and an ID verification was required. Of course, I live in Eastern Europe, so I simply approached the clerk and bought alcohol at the store by telling them I am 18, and I did not look 18. We call this a literary parallel.

Outside of that, it's just more likely that a parent is going to be around 30-40 (Statistically, average age of a parent in Europe/North America is around 30). This age is a lot harder for a teen to fake than 18, doubly so if they have some kind of an existing internet footprint. It increases the chances of other admins spotting if something is sketchy.

If someone indeed has very inattentive, very young parents who allow them to have full access to their IDs, take photos of them, and they are so inclined as to get into our admin team. Well, that is simply something we'll have to accept might happen. But it is much less likely to happen and requires quite a few more conditions.

 

[Fyni]

13 minutes ago, Coalf said:

Again, much harder to steal your parents ID and take a photo of it in secret with a snippet of paper, unless your parents also allow you to just take photos of their IDs. At which point, like I said, eventually it's not on the staff, it's on the parents. As I said, there is just a line we have to draw on how far we can take internet safety. Full ID? I don't trust admins enough for that. No ID? I don't trust the admins on that. Date of birth? I believe this is the best compromise.

To counter anecdotal evidence with my own. My parents did not let me just grab their IDs william nilliam. When I was at home without them, they worked, and their IDs were with them. When they were home, they would have spotted me doing that. So I never considered doing it. Even though I was in situations in which I wanted to buy alcohol over the internet and an ID verification was required. Of course, I live in Eastern Europe, so I simply approached the clerk and bought alcohol at the store by telling them I am 18, and I did not look 18. We call this a literary parallel.

We can use anecdotes of our younger days all we want. No matter hard it was for you to grab an ID for literally 2 minutes, that is not at all true for everyone. Do you think I am a unique case?

13 minutes ago, Coalf said:

Outside of that, it's just more likely that a parent is going to be around 30-40 (Statistically, average age of a parent in Europe/North America is around 30). This age is a lot harder for a teen to fake than 18, doubly so if they have some kind of an existing internet footprint. It increases the chances of other admins spotting if something is sketchy.

Are you saying we know that some IDs are wrong, because it shows they are old, and we know somehow they are not that old? You're back to just using trust and judgement calls again. Your entire system breaks down, because it relies on the same judgement call of other staff, at which point it doing all of this was a waste of time.

[Coalf]

1 minute ago, Fyni said:

We can use anecdotes of our younger days all we want.

I have no idea what makes your anecdotal claim more valid than mine. Yes, you are a unique case. As am I. We cannot account for each individual; we can, however, reduce the pool to very specific cases.
 

2 minutes ago, Fyni said:

 Are you saying we know that some IDs are wrong, because it shows they are old, and we know somehow they are not that old? You're back to just using trust and judgement calls again. You entire system breaks down, because it relies on the same judgement call of other staff.

Having more information about a person/situation generally leads to having an easier time making a decision, yes. This is like claiming that gamelogs are worthless, because having extra information about the round doesn't matter, since the admins are making the judgement calls anyways.

[dessysalta]

13 hours ago, Coalf said:

Having more information about a person/situation generally leads to having an easier time making a decision, yes.

What information would they be providing in this instance? It's rare people will talk about every place they've worked just to back up how old they are, and there's enough people who are 20 who act like they're 40 and vice versa, especially online.