CampinKiller Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 BYOND Key: CampinKiller Player Byond Key: PootisManiac Staff involved: Garnascus Reason for complaint: Atmos griefing, Powergaming Approximate Date/Time: March 11, approx. 1900 CST So, PootisManiac, aka Walter Bash, was a vampire. Security received a report about the Chef missing heading into Cargo. Myself and two officers go to investigate the report, and head onto the Mining Outpost. We eventually get to the outpost dorms, and open the door to one of the rooms. Inside, we see Walter Bash and the Chef, and before we even say a word, Bash vents the room with an RCD they printed off an autolathe. They then proceed to vent the outpost 3 more times in order to kill everyone inside of it, including medical staff that responded to the vitals loss. This was ahelped and I was informed that it's not atmos grief to freely vent areas, nor was it ganking to suddenly kill two Security members who weren't even there to arrest anyone, but looking for the Chef, as well as Medical staff who went to help the Security forces. Later in the round, Bash then decapitates my body, and Nia Snyder's body, for the express reason of preventing us from being cloned. In fact, he didn't just decapitate them, he dismembered them completely. There was no reason to do this other than to prevent cloning, which seems to me to be blatantly over the line of what is acceptable, especially after murderboning said people minutes prior.
Dreviore Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 I don't think I've ever not seen a round where PootisManiac is an antagonist where he doesn't kidnap someone and brutally saw them to death Like I get its a gimmick for him, and it's his thing but I've seen him do it three times already...
Garnascus Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 Ill take a more serious look over this tomorrow but for now we need to establish some things. These are mostly directed pootis but a few are for security. Questions for pootis 1. What was your reason for venting the place? 2. what was your reasoning for dismembering the deceased? Questions for security 1. What was your equipment like? also can you go into a bit more detail on why you went their to begin with? Three officers went to investigate a disappearance? Pootis has been notified in game of this complaint, they will get to this tomorrow.
Cognite Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 Questions for pootis 1. What was your reason for venting the place? I was unarmed and i had a dead chef in one of the outpost bedrooms, along with some fun contraband in the from of cuffs and a blood-stained knife, and i wasen't aware of security's intention, i didn't have access to their radio at the time, i just saw two officers, one armed with a laser gun heading my way. The reason i vented the outpost is that it was the easiest way to deal with the armed security that appeared, not really atmos griefing if it was in a isolated place with a good reason 2. what was your reasoning for dismembering the deceased? To make a gnarly scene, decapitating doesen't prevent cloning, you can attach the heads back THEN clone, the heads were close to their bodies, i didn't try to hide them or anything, it would take a a bit more effort than just tossing them inside the cloner, but cloning is still possible.
Garnascus Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 Alright, what does the OP think about that response?
Guest Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 just to chime in, saw them bragging about it in ooc like it's apparently an acceptable thing to do. taken approx 2:15PM EST. it was kind of funny how i was looking at this thread in another tab and then they immediately mention this on the server. qt
Chada1 Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 Do I count as involved? New to these kind of rules. Anyway, I saw it from the start, after Cryoing (With Permission) as the second Antag. While I agree with making a grisley scene, I think he shouldn't have decapitated, actually... In my opinion when you do that at all to multiple dead bodies it should be considered foul play, because it takes surgery to re-attach the head, and that's over 4 surgeries for everyone. Very bad. He basically made it, intentionally or not, impossible for Security to bounce back without serious medical attention beyond just cloning, which in turn made the round rather boring for everyone that wasn't involved since as soon as you kill literally every security officer ('Cept A Vaurca, can't remember the name, to be accurate) there're almost no more announcements to ICly worry about and/or respond to. And i'd like to remind everyone of something very factual, too. This isn't a competitive server, so decapitating the heads like that could be considered even worse since it basically made it impossible for anyone to get cloned in less than a 30 minute timespan. While I don't agree with how he killed all of Security myself, I am not going to make a point on that, that isn't what bothered me personally, it's just the above that really got to me, because, from my point of view, it's not fair and an unfun mechanic that does make sense due to the neural interface tech used with the cloning, but I believe is only really there due to mechanical limitations, same reason you can't clone a replacement arm or the such. I'm not saying he should be punished for decapitating, no. I'm just suggesting that this is an example of the mechanic being abused, as well as letting everyone know my, albeit small, side of the story. Please have mercy if I don't count as involved.
CampinKiller Posted March 13, 2016 Author Posted March 13, 2016 1. What was your equipment like? also can you go into a bit more detail on why you went their to begin with? Three officers went to investigate a disappearance? Some assistant called for Security over comms, reporting,"The Chef has been taken into Mining." We don't know if that meant being kidnapped, or just being taken there to see some things. Regardless, we couldn't raise them or the QM, and the AI wasn't responding. I called for two officers, and went myself to provide access. We then went onto the Mining Outpost, and still couldn't get anyone to respond, and so we had to break into the port section of it. We then simply searched the area, and then opened the door to the dorm room. Our equipment was the standard officer equipment, plus my energy gun as the HoS. All 3 of us were wearing our armored vests, but that's normal for most officers. As to what Pootis said, taking into account what Delta posted, I find that venting it multiple times, the first being before anyone could say a word, to be chucklefuckery. And nobody was armed with a laser rifle, the only person armed with a gun was myself, and the HoS is always armed. Also, making a gnarly scene makes no sense. You'd killed everyone who came to the Outpost, had vented it in multiple places, and then single out two bodies to decapitate, both of which happen to be the only Security who responded and could be a threat if cloned, and cut them into pieces for good measure.
Garnascus Posted March 13, 2016 Posted March 13, 2016 My problem here is this, If poot had the murder weapon on them AND the body of the chef stashed in the back room and suddenly sees security arrive.... I mean what else is she supposed to think? That does seem to fit our criteria for not making it gank The character in question is a physical threat to you (he is armed or can be reasonably expected to be armed) and catches you in an illegal or otherwise compromising act.
CampinKiller Posted March 13, 2016 Author Posted March 13, 2016 I'm not saying it's gank. I'm saying it's atmos grief and powergaming to immediately vent an area multiple times for the blatant purpose of winning (as admitted in OOC from Delta's post), so you can pain-crit people instantly and fully depressurize a place because the lolz.
Garnascus Posted March 13, 2016 Posted March 13, 2016 Well...no, the atmos grief clause in our rules is generally meant for large scale atmos shenanigans. Like filling the station with plasma or N2. Venting a single area of oxygen isnt atmos grief, if it was atmos grief we would have to antag ban every traitor AI. No powergaming. Roleplay precedes over objectives - do not engage in behavior which would be unrealistic for your character in an attempt to win the round. Im not quite sure this is even powergame honestly. Combat and actions can be roleplay and i think if she had the murder weapon on her and the body of the chef nearby she was in a position where shes "caught red-handed".
CampinKiller Posted March 13, 2016 Author Posted March 13, 2016 So, in other words, it's perfectly acceptable to vent significant portions of areas without the slightest amount of roleplay involved, and for powergamey reasons? They literally admitted to doing it in an attempt to win the round. If that's not powergaming, then there are serious issues with your interpretation of the rules. If antags are given free reign to circumvent to rules and bend them, then there are serious issues here.
Garnascus Posted March 13, 2016 Posted March 13, 2016 no, read what i said. poot had just murdered the chef and hid his body in the back room. What where they supposed to do? let you search the area and then perma brig them?
Jboy2000000 Posted March 14, 2016 Posted March 14, 2016 Killing in self-defense in NOT preferred. If possible, always try to flee, or disable your opponent. Just pointing this out. They were vampire, correct? And they just fed, so they should have had several other, nonlethal way to disable the security members beside venting several rooms, and killing several people just becuz lul. I also dislike that he went out of his way to make the cloning process more arduous, just because he could.
Garnascus Posted March 14, 2016 Posted March 14, 2016 Yeah those are fair points honestly, I'm a bit conflicted here a I'm gonna ask the opinion of other admins/mods before a Final judgment.
Skull132 Posted March 15, 2016 Posted March 15, 2016 A vampire has amazingly powerful stun abilities that go through sec shades. Why were they not used, and why was it necessary to immediately escalate to lethals? Further, while sec may have been valid as far as the gank rules go. The same rules also require that the amount of collateral damage be kept to a minimum. This means that the room venting should have been a last resort type deal.
Serveris Posted March 15, 2016 Posted March 15, 2016 An issue that was raised here that I personally would like to see addressed. For some time now, even as a non-antagonist, I've observed you going well out of your way to completely destroy bodies or render them very difficult to clone, with very little fanfare or sportsmanship to accompany it. While you're not necessarily obligated to avoid killing people, why is it that you always make a point of permanently removing people from play, ie, sacrificing immediately after killing as a cultist, decapitating kills after you've already finished them, etc. To me, this seems like a pretty big dick move if not pretty obvious powergaming. Then again, not everyone you've done this to has been security either, I've noticed. You've done the very same to unarmed engineers and medical personnel who were simply in the vicinity trying to do their jobs. Why is it that you do this so consistently?
SleepyWolf Posted March 16, 2016 Posted March 16, 2016 I think that Pootis should definitely post here in their defense, but yeah. I was there as Zah that round, and I was the clean up crew. All sec had were their usual default round gear, but there were quite a few of them. No reason not to use bats, stun eyes, or just run away though. Two cents, plopped in.
Butterrobber202 Posted March 17, 2016 Posted March 17, 2016 Yep, I was there as Ssirus Zuberi, repairing cargo/mining etc. The sec members I saw had the run of the mill stun weapons expect one guy, forgot the name
Serveris Posted March 18, 2016 Posted March 18, 2016 We're going to need Pootis to post ASAP and address the concerns brought up by moderation staff.
Guest Posted March 18, 2016 Posted March 18, 2016 They don't have a forum account by their own name, it seems. They didn't 'reply' the last time they had a complaint against them. http://www.aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4729&hilit=pootis PootisManiac recieved a permanent security ban, we'll watch them, if they don't change their attitude, there will be a severe punishment, like a server ban.
Dreviore Posted March 18, 2016 Posted March 18, 2016 They don't have a forum account by their own name, it seems. They didn't 'reply' the last time they had a complaint against them. http://www.aurorastation.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4729&hilit=pootis PootisManiac recieved a permanent security ban, we'll watch them, if they don't change their attitude, there will be a severe punishment, like a server ban. I believe Cognite is Pootis.
Cognite Posted March 18, 2016 Posted March 18, 2016 A vampire has amazingly powerful stun abilities that go through sec shades. Why were they not used, and why was it necessary to immediately escalate to lethals? Further, while sec may have been valid as far as the gank rules go. The same rules also require that the amount of collateral damage be kept to a minimum. This means that the room venting should have been a last resort type deal. Glare/Hypnotize has very short range and a ((during a fight)) somewhat long cooldown, and i had no weapons apart from a saw that i had created from the autolathe. Considering that i was about to be surrounded, and teleporting away would pretty much tell security "hey, this asshole can't be cuffed! just kill him on sight" i tried to get the best from a bad situation and used the most versatile tool i had on my person during the moment, which was an RCD that i used to quickly breach the room before the officers could react, considering if i teleported away, they would just go back and come much better equipped. eventually the AI ((atleast i think it was the AI)) figured out what was happening and sent reinforcements to the asteroid, which ended up in that bloodbath. In the end, i was sorta trapped in the asteroid, considering if i went back to the station, the AI would had an easier time tracking/bolting me in and spacing myself wasen't an option, considering vampires take constant heavy damage from staying exposed to starlight.
incognitojesus Posted March 18, 2016 Posted March 18, 2016 Considering that i was about to be surrounded, and teleporting away would pretty much tell security "hey, this asshole can't be cuffed! just kill him on sight" i tried to get the best from a bad situation and used the most versatile tool i had on my person during the moment, which was an RCD that i used to quickly breach the room before the officers could react, considering if i teleported away, they would just go back and come much better equipped. I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and ask the question we're all thinking of. If you were worried that if you teleported away you would become KoS, why would you decide to kill the two security officers instead? I'm not exactly following the train of thought here.
Cognite Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 Considering that i was about to be surrounded, and teleporting away would pretty much tell security "hey, this asshole can't be cuffed! just kill him on sight" i tried to get the best from a bad situation and used the most versatile tool i had on my person during the moment, which was an RCD that i used to quickly breach the room before the officers could react, considering if i teleported away, they would just go back and come much better equipped. I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and ask the question we're all thinking of. If you were worried that if you teleported away you would become KoS, why would you decide to kill the two security officers instead? I'm not exactly following the train of thought here. For me it was a decision between flight or fight, and i choosed to fight. If i ran away, they would had time to see the dead chef, and decide to come back much more well equipped ((Default sec vest and rubber bullets VS tac gear and lasers)), i figured out i could kill several birds with one stone via the RCD, which was the most dangerous tool i had on my person during the moment, i vented several keypoints of the outpost, forcing security to wear their limited numbers of voidsuits, and due to a combination of strategy, luck and security not using flashbangs, they all ended up dead one way or another. Which hilarious enough, it was never my original intention ((to kill most of sec)) when i drained the chef, but due to several factors, it ended up being what happened. In the end, i hope that i created some sort of RP in the form of ''holy shit, the QM is a blood-sucking monster that somehow ended up killing most of our security force, screw this shit, call ERT."' all while the surviving crew cursed me for the loss of their loved ones, which was pretty much what ended up happening.
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