Remove Extended from the secret rotation

[Nanako]

Extended mode is fun sometimes. Without antags it's a good chance to pick new roles, learn and experiment in a relaxed setting. Its also good for casual RP and downtime after an intense antag round.

But randomly rolling it in secret sucks. You're ready for something, and just nothing happens, you end up feeling like its wasted. There are quite a few players (not me, but many others) who simply don't enjoy playing extended at all, and they often express resentment at having been tricked into it when they voted secret.

When we vote secret, we want something random to happen. But more importantly, we want SOMETHING to happen. Extended is a very commonly voted-on mode, the playerbase knows collectively when they want it, and it getting voted for does happen. When people know it's extended they can prepare for it, by picking roles where they can develop stuff, and work on interesting projects. When it's springed on them secretly, they spend a round setting up for danger and end up feeling cheated.

So i think extended should be removed from the secret rotation. it should only happen when explicitly voted for.

In addition, i've decided to include Nikov's magnificent post in the OP. He makes excellent arguments that express things i couldn't find the words for, and it deserves to be here, seen and read first, by anyone thinking of contributing to this thread

 

All I am saying is that if there's a chance for everyone to vote for an antagonist and get no antagonist, then there should be a chance to vote for no antagonist and get an antagonist. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Unless you wish to engage in special pleading, that is. Extended Secret is a bit counter-intuitive. Within an hour a genuinely good stealth antagonist will have everyone convinced it is secret extended, and within an hour secret extended will have bored players going to cryo.

My argument actually is that we vote for secret because we want antags that round. This is not metagaming. This is voting our preference. Game mechanics permit us to change our characters after the vote result is announced. This is not metagaming. This is choosing our preference. If we sat down at a table for DnD, and the dungeon master announced we were doing a campaign in Elfland, then asked us to pick our characters, it isn't metagaming to pick your elf or your racist dwarf because the setting favors it. It isn't metagaming to decide on your healer instead of your warrior because there's already three melee characters. The DM is giving you the option, and the game hasn't started yet. Personally, I play one character in one department and ideally only one job. I find myself as the only Engineer at round start and have buddy-teams of overstaffed security knocking around Engineering asking what's taking so long on the power. I suffer from this too, but I am not about to tell other players they can't play the character they want in the game mode they want.

If you look at my post history, you'll see I have made suggestions to completely remove Extended, roll it into a proportionate-take voting system, and make every single round secret to make metagaming based on vote outcomes that much harder. If it is desirable to remove players' ability to select characters based on pre-game knowledge of the round type, there are ways to do that. I've put them forward. I've been told people want to know its Extended so they can break out their heavy roleplayers. I am hearing people claim doing the opposite for Secret is metagaming. It is a little at-odds with itself.

I don't think accusing individuals of being metagamers because they support a proposal to change the Secret rotation is much more than a non-sequitur, and those who advance it should find better one. It is basically a character attack. It is not arguing the merits of extended being in the secret rotation. It makes this argument personal. Furthermore I am hearing that the metagame paranoia of having extended be an option in Secret is what makes it so fun. Have it one way or the other, please.

I am tempted to end this post with a emoticon of a kitten face out of my desire to not start an uncivil discussion.

>>--(^x_x^);:--<>

Eh, looks like I wasn't actually done yet.

I've seen an ARMA community tear itself apart into warring factions between those who want co-op battles against an AI (extended) and player-versus-player battles between teams (antag). It doesn't end well if one side adopts personal attacks. We had a habit of taking a vote on which type to run next, and on occasion, the GM would ignore said vote and and play whatever they wanted next. This tended to kill the server, produce forum drama, so on and so forth. Here, we have an RNG randomly taking voting agency away from the player base and giving the minority what they wanted. By consenting to keep it, but not extending that chance to the other game mode, you become that GM. It favors one side, it annoys the other side, and if you're fine with the majority of the server not getting what they asked for, then I question why we vote rounds at all.

I'll just tip my hand here to avoid the follow-up arguments, which amount to polite accusations of hypocrisy. My argument is to make the rhetorical point about how secret extended is fine, but extended secret is a bad idea. I don't actually advocate it as a solution (well, it might work). However, I hope the other side realize that with the shoe on the other foot, it wouldn't be agreeable to them. Fair is fair. If we want a chance for Extended to come into Secret, we should have a chance for Secret to come into Extended. I don't want players robbed of their voting agency, so in the short term we would remove Extended from the Secret rotation. In the long term, I still sincerely hope my proportionate-take voting proposal is implemented in some fashion, as it will break the two-party stranglehold on game mode voting, nullify this argument, and allows the complete removal of metagame character selection if so desired.

I'm not posting another kitten at the end here, so you'll just have to take it on faith I'm not a raging salt fire.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Guest

[Owen]

I am not in support of it whatsoever. I don't think there really is a reason to get rid of it because a lot of people like Extended.

[swat43]

You make it sound as if the secret is a game mode for everyone just to prepare for powergaming and waiting for a perfect chance for some one to fuck up his thing and everyones on his throat.

 

But randomly rolling it in secret sucks. You're ready for something, and just nothing happens, you end up feeling like its wasted. There are quite a few players (not me, but many others) who simply don't enjoy playing extended at all, and they often express resentment at having been tricked into it when they voted secret.

 

That proves my point, and let me tell you that the second part of your sentence, is a DOUBLE-EDGED sword. There are people who dont want secret and vote extended (I.E me for example) but i still have to stick with the people incase it IS a secret and that THERE are antags.I can also use the same card as this is not fair for us, so why not remove secret entirely.

And let me be honest, if people waited for something as they pick a random generated mode but it failed their expectations, and fails to adapt to it, its their own fault, and yes, yours to, if im blunt. If people can't make anything fun while on secret extended, then ask yourself, "Why this round is so boring?"-If the answer is "Because nothing happens around" then you're answering wrong.

[Nanako]

You make it sound as if the secret is a game mode for everyone just to prepare for powergaming and waiting for a perfect chance for some one to fuck up his thing and everyones on his throat.

Powergaming is the wrong word.

In an ideal scenario, departments run well, and people do their jobs. medical makes medicine, prepares surgery rooms, and gets ready to save lives as best as they can. Engineering optimises power, sets up backups,maybe even shield generators. These things do make the station more robust against attacks, but they're hardly powergaming, they're just what those jobs are supposed to do

The problem is, if you're expecting something to happen and nothing does, it's kind of lame

 

but i still have to stick with the people incase it IS a secret and that THERE are antags.

I..don't understand this at all. I don't know what point you were trying to express, but this sentance doesn't make any sense to me. could you try rephrasing it, or using different words?

 

I can also use the same card as this is not fair for us, so why not remove secret entirely.

You're saying that it's unfair that people voted secret when you wanted extended? Well that's democracy, it's about the fairest system we've invented, there's always going to be someone unhappy, but it tries to please the majority of the people.

The thing is, "Secret" basically just means "Random Antagonist". The overwhelming majority of the possible secret results are antagonists, the chance of getting secret extended is fairly low, it's more of an anomaly, and it annoys people when it occurs because those who voted for secret, were voting for a random antag, not a lack of an antag.

People don't vote secret in hopes of getting extended as the random result, they vote extended directly if they want it, it's the only gamemode that has a fairly high chance of being directly voted for.

 

And let me be honest, if people waited for something as they pick a random generated mode but it failed their expectations, and fails to adapt to it, its their own fault, and yes, yours to, if im blunt.

I don't agree, because of the thing i just said.

Out of all the specific, non-random modes, extended has by far the highest popularity. If you want a specific antagonist, the majority of the time you're out of luck, voting for it is just throwing away your vote, and making extended more likely to get passed. People pile their votes into secret to counter the extended voters, because it offers the best chance of getting an antagonist that will add some conflict to the round

Try getting ninja mode voted for outside of dead hour. It just won't happen. try getting vampire voted for. Try any specific mode other than extended. You just tossed your vote into a hole, and maybe got shouted at for vote influencing.

 

If people can't make anything fun while on secret extended, then ask yourself, "Why this round is so boring?"-If the answer is "Because nothing happens around" then you're answering wrong.

 

Three of the major departments on the ship are reactive (security, medical, and cargo). The fun and the interactions that they have, are largely depandant on other people's actions that give them things to do. The demands on them are far lower, sometimes close to the point of nonexistence, on a round without conflict. Either from an antagonist, or from a greytide due to the server having high population. That's why i vote for extended during peak times, and antags during deadhour

[Nanako]

I am not in support of it whatsoever. I don't think there really is a reason to get rid of it because a lot of people like Extended.

 

I'm not seeing the logic.

Yes a lot of people like extended. but also a lot of people don't. I'm sure you've seen the OOC whining about it

Taking extended out of the secret rotation isn't going to stop it being played. It is already regularly voted for (and wins), and without randomly getting it in secret, i predict that would increase a little

[Jboy2000000]

I think this is, what, the fourth thread wanting to remove Extended from Secret? You know what they all have in common? They've never happened. People whine about extended, but people whine about nuke, cult, rev, people while whine about whatever gamemode, no matter what it is. I don't like Nuclear. Should I go on ahead and make a thread to remove Nuclear from Secret because me and X amount of people don't like it?

[Dreamix]

I think this is, what, the fourth thread wanting to remove Extended from Secret? You know what they all have in common?

There's 37 pages of suggestions, 904 fucking topics, countless replies. Many of them didn't get implemented/completed.

Let people discuss things, let them dream.

Secret extended is fine to me. Do we really need a mandatory traitor every round, can't we all just roleplay normal employees on a normal station we are working at?

[Nanako]

I think this is, what, the fourth thread wanting to remove Extended from Secret? You know what they all have in common? They've never happened. People whine about extended, but people whine about nuke, cult, rev, people while whine about whatever gamemode, no matter what it is. I don't like Nuclear. Should I go on ahead and make a thread to remove Nuclear from Secret because me and X amount of people don't like it?

Well nuke ops isn't active, as far as i'm aware, but i assume you were picking it as a random example.

I believe extended is an abnormality, and a different case, because of the lack of antags.

What do you think will happen to wizard mode if it's removed from the secret rotation?

I can tell you, it'll go the same way as ninja mode. There, but forgotten, never touched by anyone, nobody can build up enough popular support to vote for it.

Cult and traitor might have a chance if they were cut loose, but most antag mods, without being in the secret rotation, would just be dead and unused.

Extended isn't like that, it's regularly specifically voted for. Removing it from the rotation won't kill it off, it'll just remove a source of significant annoyance

[Nanako]

Secret extended is fine to me. Do we really need a mandatory traitor every round, can't we all just roleplay normal employees on a normal station we are working at?

 

at peak times, sure.

During lower population rounds, it starts bringing up odd questions. Why do we need such a large security force, if everyone just does their jobs and acts properly.

Why do we need specialist EMTs, surgeons, and chemists, when one doctor with shipped-in medkits and a scanner bed can fill everyone's medical needs quite well.

Why do we need an engineering team, when one man can setup the engine and go to sleep for the rest of the shift.

a round falls into sameness and boredom without some source of conflict to generate problems for people to solve, and work for them to do

[Jboy2000000]

Extended is only a problem and an annoyance for people who don't want to put any effort into making the round fun for themselves or others. That is the point of antags, and I have zero idea why people want something to spice up the round, but have no interest in putting effort into it themselves. Extended Is only boring if you sit on your thumb and do fuck all. Extended is part of the game, and like any game, you only enjoy it as much as you let yourself enjoy it. So like the four other threads with the people making the same exact arguments as you are, I can't see this going anywhere but a10-20 page argument.

[Butterrobber202]

I'd like it to be removed, if I feel like extended I will vote for it myself, not try to get a antag round then get nothing.

[Jboy2000000]

"I don't like it when I don't get what I want, make it so I can always have what I want, at the expense of people who want the other thing." I think I may have just summarized 75% of this in 30 words. I mean, really, this is pretty much what this says. Beside, how often does extended happen? Tell me, how many times does extended show up in the numerous amounts of secret rounds that it seems to make secret less valid to the point where we should seriously consider removing it?

[Nikov]

This is ridiculous.

If people vote Extended, they want extended.

If people vote Secret, they want an antagonist.

Nobody votes Secret hoping to get Extended.

If you want to roleplay normal people on a normal station, vote Extended.

If you want to roleplay a character in a sci-fi action movie, vote Secret.

This is not an attack on your favorite game mode, this is a protest that the server votes for an antagonist, and gets two hours of nothing.

[Arrow768]

Let me remind you that this is a high rp server and as in real live there is a chance that its "just another day in the office".

Only because its voted secret you should not join a specific department or "prepare" stuff thats not done in extended (Metagaming anyone ?)

As mentioned before:

This will just lead to a pagelong discussion with nothing happening at the end.

[Ricky_the_banshee]

Extended mode is fun sometimes. Without antags it's a good chance to pick new roles, learn and experiment in a relaxed setting. Its also good for casual RP and downtime after an intense antag round.

But randomly rolling it in secret sucks. You're ready for something, and just nothing happens, you end up feeling like its wasted. There are quite a few players (not me, but many others) who simply don't enjoy playing extended at all, and they often express resentment at having been tricked into it when they voted secret.

When we vote secret, we want something random to happen. But more importantly, we want SOMETHING to happen. Extended is a very commonly voted-on mode, the playerbase knows collectively when they want it, and it getting voted for does happen. When people know it's extended they can prepare for it, by picking roles where they can develop stuff, and work on interesting projects. When it's springed on them secretly, they spend a round setting up for danger and end up feeling cheated.

So i think extended should be removed from the secret rotation. it should only happen when explicitly voted for.

 

I see what point you're trying to make here and I agree at some degree with this. However, it's especially the line, and I quote; "When people know it's extended they can prepare for it, by picking roles where they can develop stuff, and work on interesting projects. When it's springed on them secretly, they spend a round setting up for danger and end up feeling cheated." So, you're saying that during Extended people shouldn't prepare at all because we are OOCly aware of no antagonistic roles being present? Of course I've also read the part in which you answer where as people should prepare as normally which is fine. But ask yourself, IF the staff had a change of heart and decided to remove Extended from the secret rotation, how will that effect OOC behaviour? If everybody is aware that antagonistic roles /WILL/ be present without any doubts, you feel find alot of powergaming behaviour rising. Then there is another important fact which several of the staff and defenders of "Sextended" try to make; Like it or not, you got to do weal with it. If the gamemode turns out to be Sextended. Too bad, no antagonists. But at least we were able to have some RP. Personally, I often frown upon sextended too after getting excited for an antag confrontation. And when it doesn't happen, too bad. I just hope for the next round.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

We had this discussion before, and it was just as civil.

Removing extended from the secret rotation isn't something I can support. The point is not knowing what you're in for, and that there is the chance that you won't hit antagonists. It seems fair to me to give the extended players just as much of a pleasant surprise as other players. Sometimes I enjoy finding out it was extended all along; I try to play every secret like it's extended because to be it's a good way to avoid metagaming for awhile into the round.

[Nikov]

Then add a chance for Extended to be Autotraitor. Everyone gets "pleasant surprises". Fair is fair.

[Guest]

i think the best decision is to change absolutely nothing because there really is nothing wrong with extended being in the secret rotation

I mean, if your best argument is "Well we play secret because we expect antags!!" then you need to 1.) stop metagaming and 2.) not expect so much of antagonists to start with. Just play to roleplay, it isn't necessary to niggle so much on the detail of antags being present in the round.

[Shadow]

Then add a chance for Extended to be Autotraitor. Everyone gets "pleasant surprises". Fair is fair.

 

Autotraitor is currently broken. Only normal Traitor works.

[Garnascus]

The cynic in me that hates extended would love this. The realist in me understands its a bit counter-intuitive. Secret is supposed to be a mixed bag. Right now playing secret the question is "is there an antag? Is this guy grinding my gears an antag?" the mind game aspect to this is pretty interesting. Removing extended just changes it to "what antag is it?"

Even still, antags always make it more fun for me.

[Nanako]

Right now playing secret the question is "is there an antag? Is this guy grinding my gears an antag?"

I agree, this tension is what makes a lot of thigns fun

But there's also the point that some people just are, or roleplay as, assholes. And enjoy upsetting others and getting a rise out of them. There's a lot of possibilities already in an antag round, to falsely suspect people because of aggressive or suspicious behaviour. i don't think removing extended from the rotation would change that tension much

And remember that for every wierd normal player, there's an intelligent psychopath antag. While you're watching the crazy pastor who's trying to form a jonestown style cult in the chapel, your virologist is a traitor with a hostage tied up and being tortured in his lab

[Frances]

there is nothing that excites me more than the promise of unexpected chair roleplay

[Nikov]

All I am saying is that if there's a chance for everyone to vote for an antagonist and get no antagonist, then there should be a chance to vote for no antagonist and get an antagonist. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Unless you wish to engage in special pleading, that is. Extended Secret is a bit counter-intuitive. Within an hour a genuinely good stealth antagonist will have everyone convinced it is secret extended, and within an hour secret extended will have bored players going to cryo.

My argument actually is that we vote for secret because we want antags that round. This is not metagaming. This is voting our preference. Game mechanics permit us to change our characters after the vote result is announced. This is not metagaming. This is choosing our preference. If we sat down at a table for DnD, and the dungeon master announced we were doing a campaign in Elfland, then asked us to pick our characters, it isn't metagaming to pick your elf or your racist dwarf because the setting favors it. It isn't metagaming to decide on your healer instead of your warrior because there's already three melee characters. The DM is giving you the option, and the game hasn't started yet. Personally, I play one character in one department and ideally only one job. I find myself as the only Engineer at round start and have buddy-teams of overstaffed security knocking around Engineering asking what's taking so long on the power. I suffer from this too, but I am not about to tell other players they can't play the character they want in the game mode they want.

If you look at my post history, you'll see I have made suggestions to completely remove Extended, roll it into a proportionate-take voting system, and make every single round secret to make metagaming based on vote outcomes that much harder. If it is desirable to remove players' ability to select characters based on pre-game knowledge of the round type, there are ways to do that. I've put them forward. I've been told people want to know its Extended so they can break out their heavy roleplayers. I am hearing people claim doing the opposite for Secret is metagaming. It is a little at-odds with itself.

I don't think accusing individuals of being metagamers because they support a proposal to change the Secret rotation is much more than a non-sequitur, and those who advance it should find better one. It is basically a character attack. It is not arguing the merits of extended being in the secret rotation. It makes this argument personal. Furthermore I am hearing that the metagame paranoia of having extended be an option in Secret is what makes it so fun. Have it one way or the other, please.

I am tempted to end this post with a emoticon of a kitten face out of my desire to not start an uncivil discussion.

>>--(^x_x^);:--<>

Eh, looks like I wasn't actually done yet.

I've seen an ARMA community tear itself apart into warring factions between those who want co-op battles against an AI (extended) and player-versus-player battles between teams (antag). It doesn't end well if one side adopts personal attacks. We had a habit of taking a vote on which type to run next, and on occasion, the GM would ignore said vote and and play whatever they wanted next. This tended to kill the server, produce forum drama, so on and so forth. Here, we have an RNG randomly taking voting agency away from the player base and giving the minority what they wanted. By consenting to keep it, but not extending that chance to the other game mode, you become that GM. It favors one side, it annoys the other side, and if you're fine with the majority of the server not getting what they asked for, then I question why we vote rounds at all.

I'll just tip my hand here to avoid the follow-up arguments, which amount to polite accusations of hypocrisy. My argument is to make the rhetorical point about how secret extended is fine, but extended secret is a bad idea. I don't actually advocate it as a solution (well, it might work). However, I hope the other side realize that with the shoe on the other foot, it wouldn't be agreeable to them. Fair is fair. If we want a chance for Extended to come into Secret, we should have a chance for Secret to come into Extended. I don't want players robbed of their voting agency, so in the short term we would remove Extended from the Secret rotation. In the long term, I still sincerely hope my proportionate-take voting proposal is implemented in some fashion, as it will break the two-party stranglehold on game mode voting, nullify this argument, and allows the complete removal of metagame character selection if so desired.

I'm not posting another kitten at the end here, so you'll just have to take it on faith I'm not a raging salt fire.

[Guest]

^ shit that's a good post

[Jboy2000000]

Let me ask something. Why do people think secret is specifically for antags, and antags only? Where does it say that secret is just an antag selector? No where. Secret is for secretly picking the gamemode. If you want to tell people to vote extended if they want extended, vote for antags if you want antags with no chance for extended.