Changes to cloning

[TrickingTrapster]

Most of those suggestions are good, Kaed, but until, at least I think, we have the new map, we don't have geneticists. The debuff should cover neatly, though, if we do it right.

[Nanako]

Cloning is cheap and easy because death in Space Station 13 is easy. One 20 brute damage bullet can and will kill you. If you want to make cloning arbitrarily difficult, then you'd need to change the entire game system from how easy it is to die to how damaging certain things are - because in this game, death has always been cheap and unfulfilling. It is how it was designed. It was not designed with HRP in mind. It was designed with low RP shenanigans in mind, where getting farted on can kill you. This game is designed for that, despite changes to it. Core mechanics remain the same.

 

This is actually what i'm doing, and have been doing gradually for months. In general i'd like to see combats last longer and killing people be more difficult. Coming next patch, lasers are getting nerfed.

But i don't think thats necessarily a blocker to reforming cloning

[Nanako]

I agree with shadow that trying to make people not play certain roles after cloning will not work. I don't think any kind of IC regulation will work, because cloning often occurs in a crisis situation where regulations are tossed out of the window

[Nanako]

RE: Genetics, i'm adding that back and reforming the disability/mutation system. More penalties through there are likely. As alberyk mentioned a couple pages back though, random disabilities do already exist and get treated with ryetalyn (i'm removing or heavily nerfing that drug soon)

In the new map, the cloning facilities will be located inside the genetics lab, although the plan is to have half of the lab (the half the cloners are in) open to doctors.

With regards to cloning, two major ideas come to mind that i'd like to see done:

1. Cloning insurance. Cloning someone is (or should be) a financially expensive process that not everyone can afford. Instead of having Do Not Clone orders, which is an opt-out mechanic, i'd like cloning to be opt-in. If your medical records don't state that you have cloning insurance, then cloning you would be done at cost to NT, which only certain command staff could authorise. This would all ideally be tied to an economy system in future.

2. Usage of a limited resource. In addition to upping biomatter costs, i'd like cloning to also involve cost in a secondary resource, something like Stem Cells. Which could only be obtained by ordering them from specialist medical suppliers via cargo, or in smaller amounts by harvesting from the spine of non-husked corpses

Plus a few minor changes: Slightly longer duration of cloning procedure, longer recovery time, higher biomatter cost, and MUCH higher power costs

Edited March 17, 2017 by Guest

[Nanako]

Now for my biggest point: Before we worry about cloning, I really think devs should add defibs. They would give an option before resorting to something "drastic" like cloning, and it just makes IC sense to have them!

Please make a seperate thread for this, i'd actually be interested in discussing defibs

[Dreamix]

Right, here we go.

1. Financial costs are stupid. They will either force min-maxing the living costs to afford ramboing, or it will make regulars rich and able to afford death while alienating the poor occasional or civilian players, or it won't have any impact on the actual game at all. Also, remember that some people (or most, especially those not active on the forums) don't want to or don't have the time to play around any financial stuff. They just want to hop in and play.

2. Imperfect clones are stupid. I'm not going to believe that a highly advanced machine that grows brains and whole bodies out of relatively basic materials, sometimes forgets to make you a liver or makes you blind, because reasons.

3. Paperwork and regulations are stupid. When cloning happens, no one is going to bother about filling any forms. Also, not canon so no IR's.

4. Neural laces or whatever equivalent would be fine, with some modifications. Only heads have the laces and therefore can be cloned at round start. But, there is one or two spare laces stored somewhere, and more can be made with exotic materials and research.

This could be explained by the lace being a brain mapper that allows cloning. There could also be other mechanics like low tech laces that don't require surgery but only work quarter the time. Or cloning not require laces if the brain wasn't damaged during death, ex freezing or blood loss, but not after 5 minutes after death because brain decay, or if the person took the easy way out to the head.

I believe, this is especially interesting. For example, a xenoarcheologist can be laced before handling possibly dangerous artifacts, or the station could lace two officers, pump them full of drugs and send them to raid a mercenary ship, while unlaced officers support them with sniper rifles. Or pro-naturalist mercs could be sent to rip laces out of people.

5. Disorientation, dizziness and /or clumsiness would also be fine, as Delta suggested. 30 minutes of stumbling around and not really being able to use guns or machinery would be fine, and force you to roleplay acclimatizing to the new - old body, which is interesting.

[Shadow]

So far it looks like we'll with what delta said.

Giving clones the uncurable clumsy gene for X amounts of minutes because this is a completely fresh body and you have to learn using it again.

This also gives people the freedom to RP how they want.

And maybe there will be a slightly increased cost of synthmeat.

[ADHD0ug]

First post other than my ban appeal (which has to be a case of mistaken identity, don't worry), saw this topic at the top of the screen and figured, why not get involved here? I do have potent opinions on subjects like this, and they are reflected very strongly in the last few posts from Nanako and K0NFL1QT. I believe MANY ideas listed previously warrant a place in the upgrade, both mechanically and for overall immersion.

-PAPERWORK. Not only on the clerical level, but this would also allow corporate to authorize cloning procedures based on importance. Captain basically gets free cloning (or HoP has it authorized if there's a power higher than captain) unless they are a proven antagonist. Captain authorizes heads, captain and heads both need to authorize employees. Nobody wants to do lots of paperwork, this might actually encourage authorities to weigh the effort against productivity and cause of death of the employee.

-HEFTY PRICE. There has probably never been an immersive economy because there was never an appropriate incentive. Pay trickles down the ladder from corporate to the little guys who otherwise may not qualify for cloning. Captain delegates funds to heads, heads disperse funds among employees, employees barter with each other and actually start to pay for food and drinks, etc. Where corporate can authorize priority individuals, less important individuals would have to sign clone insurance paperwork ahead of time to authorize fund deduction in case of death. I realize economy is an entirely separate can of worms but I still encourage it.

-Put the two systems above together and you have an ecology in which economy and paperwork circulate and become more commonplace. A class system may also form, comprising those who can hopefully afford to pay their own cloning cost, those who are nearly guaranteed cloning privileges, and the middle class that perhaps tries to save enough to ensure a clone, but also works diligently in hopes of being authorized. All while weeding out those who perform terribly and expect to be cloned regardless. People don't pay? People don't get authorized? Attrition builds and the station dries up. That's what HAPPENS.

-Initial skeletal, muscle and immune system weakness would certainly make sense, and I believe it was even represented in Avatar but it's been a while.

-I don't know the lore of the setting but I like the sound of downgrading the cloning vat from a perfect bio-printer (if that's really what it is) so it excessively accelerates a scratch-grown fetus to adulthood, with the potential for a number of appropriate genetic defects resulting in mental conditions or missing LIMBS (not vital organs). Give psychiatrists, pharmacists, geneticists and roboticists something to do. Facilitate the use of wheelchairs for a while. This should help prevent the clone trooper revolving door from pumping out able-bodied men even during crises in which they will obviously be given priority authorization.

-For the above idea to work, non-transhumanist transferal of consciousness could involve scanning and storing brainwave patterns, involving foresight and time investment as part of standard procedure. Alternatively, have those scans automatically upload upon arrival to the station, having been taken as standard procedure before deployment like a vaccination before traveling abroad. The limiting factor here would rely on price and paperwork rather than an intact body.

-SomeoneOutTher3 linked an awesome cloning mini-game idea with the equally awesome explanation of actually having to be educated in the field of genetics to perform the process adequately. The better the results the less mental and physical defects presented by the resulting clone.

-On the note of genetics requiring education, I feel the cloning labs should be accessible solely to geneticists. While this may seem to be shooting medical in the foot in regards to patient revival, adding defibrillation back should certainly act as a suitable alternative.

I'm probably forgetting a few points I wanted to address but that's what I've got off the top of my head after reading through the thread. Some of these have been suggested. I know some will be taken seriously, others will be shouted out. What we've got is a separation of those who want to trust in the roleplaying capabilities of the players, those that want to make sure nobody can ignore RP and circumvent the negatives, and those that want to largely ignore death penalties and get back to playing the game. These are all valid viewpoints and I'm not attempting to discredit any of them, but I feel in a server listed as roleplay heavy, immersion should be the primary concern.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Cloning is already a complicated process with stopgaps to its "abuse" (as much as you can abuse cloning). These suggestions are all going about fixing the problems with cloning the wrong way.

You require a clonable corpse, the ghost to be in the body, enough biomass, working cryo, and alkysine. This is already convoluted, and it's only considered a breeze because we're used to the logistics falling into place.

Admins and mods are usually very strict on rendering a body unclonable. There was a thread only recently asking everyone to stop decapitating their enemies, and I've been bwoinked for spacing a fresh kill. We don't need lasers nerfed or cloning to be nerfed; this is an administrative policy issue.

We cannot have two juxtaposed realities, where we want to both ensure our bodies are able to be cloned while also wanting to punish death more.

[Ridley]

I haven't thought up any details, but whatever the change, this is a heavy roleplay server. As long as the solution allows for RP it should be okay.

However, I think it important to realize Cloning is a thing in this day and age, but why is it on a research station? Are accidents that common? Why spend resources on something that they could do without?

[SomeoneOutTher3]

As a possible alternative to the DNA Repair minigame, the tumors idea sounds good. Cloning would cause tumors to grow in random parts of the body and interfere with that body part's function. To permanently stop the tumor from being a problem, surgery is needed. If surgery can't be done,synaptizine will stop the effects of the tumors while it is inside the victim, but at the cost of poisoning the clone. That way, clones don't require too much bullshit,but the process is not inconsequential.

Or,perhaps, both ideas can be implemented?

[jkol591]

I'd say move the location of the cloning lab. Being in the medical department, there's generally a whirlwind of activity going on around the cloning bay, and sometimes doctors finish cloning someone, pop them in cryo, and let them be. There isn't enough emphasis put on the fact that the cloned person has no idea what happened. Moving it to a more secure area (say, the bridge) would require higher access levels to be able to clone someone, and the increased isolation could allow procedure to be followed, especially since cloned people sometimes forget that they are supposed not be able to remember much from before. Just my two cents.

[TrickingTrapster]

Maybe not necessarily the bridge, but more to the back of medical, a bit out-of-the-way like virology is now. It's pretty haphazardly placed next to the medbay entrance right now which really doesn't help.

[Dreviore]

Just make cloning easily accessible by science staff so that they can be there to assist with cloning should medical be swamped.

[SpunSpoons]

Hmm.

The cloning is way too easy at the moment and seemingly anyone who dies gets cloned. However I think it should depend on the importance of the character, basically what their role is on the ship.

I think prioritising more important characters, like Head's, Doctors, Security members and so on should be more important than a Janitor, simple nurse or a Bartender.

Putting a limit on the cloning is a good idea but also having people prioritise certain roles would be also beneficial, whats the point in wasting money and power on cloning a simple assistant that possibly died to alcohol poisoning? (This has happened because I got cloned after dying to alcohol poisoning)

Another thing that i've noticed with cloning is that doctors are TELLING cloned patients they've BEEN CLONED. This isn't supposed to happen as far as I can tell and it's very frustrating. And players who have been cloned don't seem to act braindamaged or any different to what they used to act like. It's very frustrating sometimes.

Also, looking at past medical records or getting feedback from other characters whom were in the area when you collapsed and died should be prioritised too, if a doctor is just given a random dead body they know nothing about they should ask for witnesses of the death, if its learn that the person died to their own stupidity, example drinking themselves to death or taking drugs aboard the ship, they should be shipped to the morge. However if it was a security officer who died in action, he should probably be cloned.

Anywho, I think encouraging people to Prioritise cloning and limiting it to maybe 5 clones per shift is a good idea.

[Synnono]

Another thing that i've noticed with cloning is that doctors are TELLING cloned patients they've BEEN CLONED.

 

This is actually standard procedure. It was changed last year at some point.

[Wiebman]

...

Anywho, I think encouraging people to Prioritise cloning and limiting it to maybe 5 clones per shift is a good idea.

 

5 is a lot though, I've rarely seen people get cloned more than once a round.

Just an idea, but maybe we should only give people like 5 clones a week, (since they have the choice to get cloned or not as a ghost).

Because most other ideas, (tumors, missing organs, missing body parts, bad clones,...) seem somewhat silly, since I'd think Nanotrasen would have already perfected cloning by now, at least to the point where people don't miss arms or legs, or organs.

[TrickingTrapster]

You could also make a bit more of an "exhaustive" process, because cloning is really easy right now. Two buttons. Maybe have the cloner start out with no biomass and you can only insert it as a clone is being made. Not enough or too much biomass results in a deformity for the clone. There, now you even have something you can chalk up to training rather than machinery. Just a thought, but might be an idea.

[Nikov]

Reposting. One of the problems of cloning to me is that anyone can do it, since the machine's interface is pretty much a microwave oven of simplicity. I suggested this puzzle a long while back to make cloning a process that a skilled worker is required for, rather than something that runs on automatic.

Easy little puzzle; DNA repair. DNA is a predictable pairing of amino acids. A-T / G-C. Give two strings of A-T-G-C random letters, omit a number of those letters as X's, and then replace the X's with the correct pairing. Sometimes you'd even get a pair that's both X, leaving it a blind guess. How many you get correct or incorrect determines how much genetic damage the clone suffers. How long the clone is dead determines how many pairings are X's for the cloning tech to try and figure out. Sally Snowflake can no longer walk up and clone people since it is clearly a more intensive process than before. "Scan" and "Print" do not require 8 years of college, this presumably does.

For double-hard mode, A-T / G-C is only in humans. Other species have a different pairing scheme.

[Wiebman]

Reposting. One of the problems of cloning to me is that anyone can do it, since the machine's interface is pretty much a microwave oven of simplicity. I suggested this puzzle a long while back to make cloning a process that a skilled worker is required for, rather than something that runs on automatic.

Easy little puzzle; DNA repair. DNA is a predictable pairing of amino acids. A-T / G-C. Give two strings of A-T-G-C random letters, omit a number of those letters as X's, and then replace the X's with the correct pairing. Sometimes you'd even get a pair that's both X, leaving it a blind guess. How many you get correct or incorrect determines how much genetic damage the clone suffers. How long the clone is dead determines how many pairings are X's for the cloning tech to try and figure out. Sally Snowflake can no longer walk up and clone people since it is clearly a more intensive process than before. "Scan" and "Print" do not require 8 years of college, this presumably does.

For double-hard mode, A-T / G-C is only in humans. Other species have a different pairing scheme.

 

I like idea fam

[Korinra]

Cloning should just go away if you ask me. I know that's not a popular opinion but as is, it's a haven for issues. Makes death not relevant, since we could always just clone the person. Makes the caskets in the chapel pointless, why have a funeral when we're going to clone them anyway? Here's a thought, take away cloning of non-staff heads. ONLY heads of staff can be cloned legally and only under the situation that their death was deemed murder or an unfortunate accident. Try this for a week, and see how people change their play. I bet the biggest impact is people do less stupid stuff that gets them killed (or as a benefit, removes stupid people from the round as contributors for people who WILL contribute).

[NoahKirchner]

I, personally, really like the idea of having missing organs and limbs whenever the subject comes out. This would, I think, make cloning a bit less "Happy sunshine everyone's alive", and a bit more serious. It'd be a struggle to keep them alive throughout the entire process (If they're cloned with only one lung, or a damaged heart or whatever), and might make the entire situation a bit more engaging than "Body in, wait, cryo, release".

But just my two cents.

[Covert0ddity]

I've always had strong feeling on death and cloning. I believe that death is utterly necessary to make a good story. With cloning, however, the recently deceased are brought back to life at little to no cost other than 'oh, I'm a clone' which is thus ignored.

However, this isn't a commentary on the need of cloning or its contribution to willy-nilly throwing away of one's character. I white liked tequila Joe's idea in that cloning machines shouldn't even be available to the station at first; it's an Outpost, not a frontier war fortress. The minigame sounds cool as well, if difficult to implement.

Make it hard in whichever way is best or completely eliminate it; cloning is something that needs to go. It fosters a bad atmosphere and isn't very immersive, there's no way around that. As for those saying death shouldn't punish characters... Why not? Death is something to be avoided, real life and every other game included. Why should our game be different? Why do we need the constant coddling like we can't be asked to sit out a round and watch as a ghost for dying (fulfilling or not)?

Just something to ponder on.

Edit: on some more thoughts, people will complain surely: "but my character didn't have to die there, she's a Uber warrior Gene therapy super woman!!!" Obviously, this excuse doesn't hold up when presented to the staff, but the base remains.

"My character should not die for x reasons and the antag was wrong for y z h reasons." Perhaps we should look at this from a more cynical standpoint? These people are complaining for dying in a video game, a high rp one at that

I'd offer this advice to them: take care of your characters. Treat them like every round you could permadie, that the round won't end and you can retcon the mercenary shooting your face for charging him or the alien stabbing you in the stomach for trying to hit it with your fists.

Beg for mercy. Avoid combat. Offer money or friends in exchange. Do what it takes to *survive* like every other animal, if not for good roleplay than to avoid having to watch the whole round as a ghost or be subjected to half an hour of tunnel vision and munted gameplay it overdone clone rp.

[Bygonehero]

I'll get straight to the point. Cloning is too easy and apparently we are becoming a "Mass cloning facility". Something thats not supposed to happen, so we thought the best way to solve it is to make cloning harder. Staff came up with a few ideas but we want to ask the comunnity.

What would you change about cloning?

Some staffmembers had the following ideas:

• You have to pay x000 credits every time you get cloned.
• You are missing some limbs/organs when you get cloned.
  
• Add a random disability.
  
• Stuff that requires surgery after the process.
  
• Limited clonings per shift.

 

Now, those are just a few and we want to know what you would change about cloning.

We want a change, now we just have to find out what we want to change.

 

Let's break this down.

A very real problem would be the random mutation that would eventually run rampant with repeated clonings. Consider in the lifespan of an organism that it mutates perhaps twice of any significant note. A clone would be a copy of that organism with their old mutations undergoing growth in a matter of seconds and thus mutating even further. If you started with 2 mutations, you now mutated 2 more times, meaning your clone now has 4 mutations. This can be continued ad nauseum and it's why cloning people wouldn't ever really be a thing in any science fiction.

((Keep in mind cellular growth in the games speed would reach extremely high temperatures due to the fast cellular action, probably destroying the cells in the process... but suspension of disbelief ))

Star Wars solved the above problem with their clone troopers by having all clones come from one source, meaning each clone is just one iteration of the main organism and thus would not have many mutations to speak of.

I think clones should come out with mutations that cause them to be impaired in some way or be beneficial. I think the problem with cloning is that(barring the soul) no one considers the moral implications that the person who died is still dead and this is just someone who thinks they are that person.

I think the game should highlight this fact in how much the clone ISNT the person who died by giving them mutations or a speech impediment.

Everything I have mentioned can also be cured by a competent geneticist which gives the new geneticist role on newmap more to do than sit in their lab all day.

[moltenkore]

How about the Cloning Request System? (NanoTrasen TM)

This system would consist of a few parts.

Icly:

>Doctor sends request through their NanoTrasen Cloning request console to Central Command's Cloning repository database.

>Doctor receives receives genetic confirmation code.

>Doctor types code into cloning machine and bam, clone pops out as before.

So how does this differ from the current system? The OOC mechanics.

Oocly:

>Each clonable body has a randomly generated genetic cloning confirmation string (just a var).

>Each round a cloning quota is set possibly dependant on amount of people on the manifest. A captain could request a cloning quota extension to Central command (admin responsed) that will dock all crews wages in some form.

>The global clone quota can be adjusted by admins.

>A person can set on their character sheet whether they can be cloned or not. (If the person has clone insurance)

>After the quota has been reached all further requests are denied and a message sent to the station that the station's cloning quota has been reached.

It would take some coding but I think it wouls be a lot more flexible than the current system in terms of round impact etc.

(Excuse bad formatting, I typed this on a phone)