Jump to content

Changes to cloning


Shadow

Recommended Posts

I'll get straight to the point. Cloning is too easy and apparently we are becoming a "Mass cloning facility". Something thats not supposed to happen, so we thought the best way to solve it is to make cloning harder. Staff came up with a few ideas but we want to ask the comunnity.

What would you change about cloning?


Some staffmembers had the following ideas:

  • You have to pay x000 credits every time you get cloned.
  • You are missing some limbs/organs when you get cloned.
  • Add a random disability.
  • Stuff that requires surgery after the process.
  • Limited clonings per shift.

 

Now, those are just a few and we want to know what you would change about cloning.

We want a change, now we just have to find out what we want to change.

Link to comment
  • Replies 81
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

What I was thinking- which has undoubtedly been planted in my head from other, more talented individuals than I, is this: make it a sort of minigame, where you have to actually compare the person's DNA hash before and after the cloning, and fix whatever genetic drift might have occurred, lest they get some sort of debuff that would take the highest-level genetic cure to fix? I can't remember which thread I got that idea from, but I know, as a -fact-, that it's not my own original thought.

Link to comment

Credits sound dumb and won't change anything.


Organs sound alright, but they tie into #3 and #4, both of which I like.

A random disability that may or may not make surgery required sounds like something that absolutely nobody wants, which includes the medical staff as well. It sounds like it would make cloning less common, and it doesn't sound too lore-breaking.

That's my two and two.

Link to comment

An interesting issue. I've seen this tackled a few different ways in the past.


First, old school cloning.

Back in the days of Hypatia (Yes, around the time the dinosaurs were around), cloning left you with a special kind of weakness. You had to either use a cane or be assisted in walking a certain amount of steps, or you would fall over. Maybe this concept can be reused/changed and applied here?


Neural Laces and Resleeving

In some circles, most crew members have an implant called a neural lace. The TLDR is that it contains the consciousness, or something, and all clones are created brain dead without the consciousness. Mechanically this means that when cloned, the body must be recovered, the lace removed, and then implanted into the clone. I still have the process saved somewhere. Will include in a spoiler for the tallness of my post.

 

LACE - Head

Scalpel

Hemostat

retractor

saw

retractor

scalpel - Stack

hemostat


replacing.

GAS AND INTERNALS

scalpel

hemostat

retractor

saw

retractor

LACE

fix-o-vein

retractor

bone gel (x2?)

cautery

Link to comment

We're a heavy RP server, not everything needs to be mechanical.

I'd like to see what happens post-cloning to be more fleshed out. People who have been cloned are not allowed to work in certain departments due to the volatile nature of cloning (to avoid security just cloning it's officers and sending them back out), those who are cloned actually act like it's seriously affected them, that sort of thing.

Link to comment
We're a heavy RP server, not everything needs to be mechanical.

I'd like to see what happens post-cloning to be more fleshed out. People who have been cloned are not allowed to work in certain departments due to the volatile nature of cloning (to avoid security just cloning it's officers and sending them back out), those who are cloned actually act like it's seriously affected them, that sort of thing.

 

This actually just came up in a shift I had last night. My security cadet, Brielle Demuth, died while fighting a blob. The CMO cloned her, and then told her it was regulation that he inform her that she was cloned. She proceeded to have a lot of questions that basically completely incapacitated her, up to and including the classic conundrum of "Am I me? Or am I just a copy of her? Who am I, exactly? WHAT am I?" She may or may not become an assistant for a while, and when I get around to it it'll be noted in her medical record that she's undergoing intensive therapy regarding post-cloning stress.

Link to comment

i have always disliked cloning. Used to be people expected antags to gift wrap corpses and hand deliver them to cloning. Anything less and they would send an ahelp. I was not a fan of the entitlement then. I wish people could understand that a good round or story will sometimes call for them to die and stay dead. Unfortunately, cloning is a little bit too easy. currently all that is needed is for a halfway decent doctor to stick you in the pod and press clone, then a dip in cryo and you're all set. Maybe if you're unlucky you will get a genetic defect that the chemist can fix. sure it can take a little while to get cloned, upwards of 20 minutes in extreme cases. This however allows you to get right back to doing what you where doing. There is currently nothing within the rules or CMD that states that you suddenly become a lot worse at your job.


The worst example of this is security. In high action rounds this can turn medbay into a revolving door of clone troopers. They die, get cloned and then are right back at it chasing down the antags. I do not think that is fair and its why i have always held the policy of "i dont care what you do to a corpse to prevent cloning". That policy of course assumes you arent ganking or breaking any other rules when you kill someone. In which case you're in trouble anyway.

 

We're a heavy RP server, not everything needs to be mechanical.

I'd like to see what happens post-cloning to be more fleshed out. People who have been cloned are not allowed to work in certain departments due to the volatile nature of cloning (to avoid security just cloning it's officers and sending them back out), those who are cloned actually act like it's seriously affected them, that sort of thing.

 

This is i think the easiest way to go about this and the best way to go about this.

Link to comment
We're a heavy RP server, not everything needs to be mechanical.

I'd like to see what happens post-cloning to be more fleshed out. People who have been cloned are not allowed to work in certain departments due to the volatile nature of cloning (to avoid security just cloning it's officers and sending them back out), those who are cloned actually act like it's seriously affected them, that sort of thing.

 

I can already tell that people will not stick to it. Especially in high action rounds. They will shrug it off and go back to work.

Link to comment

Okay, so this might be either a really stupid or a very good idea. How about, when cloning, instead of a fully functional body, you get a body in stasis with only the heart and the brain inside. Since they are in stasis, they won't receive damage yet from lack of organs, which also drop out of the pod and have to be surgery'd in. This would give doctors a limited window to "process" the new clone, and they will die if they fail, putting more pressure on the doctors and preventing the merry-go-round of cloning sec. As soon as the stasis wears off, and the clone doesn't have their lungs put in, for example, they will suffocate quite fast. That sort of thing. Just an idea I just got.

Link to comment
We're a heavy RP server, not everything needs to be mechanical.

I'd like to see what happens post-cloning to be more fleshed out. People who have been cloned are not allowed to work in certain departments due to the volatile nature of cloning (to avoid security just cloning it's officers and sending them back out), those who are cloned actually act like it's seriously affected them, that sort of thing.

 

I can already tell that people will not stick to it. Especially in high action rounds. They will shrug it off and go back to work.

 

They cannot shrug it off if you strip them of their ID.


As for a good deal of the suggestions here, its highly dependant on having a qualified and/or an efficient surgeon on call.


If I were to suggest something, it would be to lock cloning behind a specialized, limited(1) slot role that made the cloning process available to ONLY this individual, CMO or the AI/borgs.

They would have the knowhow to work the cloner and aid in the recovery of the fresh bodies. Maybe implement a new, specialized drug to sync their consciousness with their new body. (The lack of this drug will cause their speech to become garbled and make them frequently drop things they're holding and trip?)

Link to comment

Cloning doesn't need to be changed.


Cloning is cheap and easy because death in Space Station 13 is easy. One 20 brute damage bullet can and will kill you. If you want to make cloning arbitrarily difficult, then you'd need to change the entire game system from how easy it is to die to how damaging certain things are - because in this game, death has always been cheap and unfulfilling. It is how it was designed. It was not designed with HRP in mind. It was designed with low RP shenanigans in mind, where getting farted on can kill you. This game is designed for that, despite changes to it. Core mechanics remain the same.


Gimping cloning would necessitate rebalancing to not be an utter garbage experience. SS13, from its outset, was not created to serve the purpose HRP servers try to make it fill. Leave the core mechanics alone, or change everything.


Cloning is fine just as it is. Blame bad RP on the players, not the mechanics.

Link to comment

I'd like to refer everyone to this: https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7618&p=74021

It's fantastic. I'm not saying it should be enforced, but I'd love to see more people using it.


But, back to the topic at hand, I believe it would be better for everyone (except security who just want their valids) if cloned individuals are locked out of dangerous roles. Someone who is cloned has had their entire life snatched away and given back. People are not going to be safe to go back to vital roles - perhaps even locking them out of all non-civilian roles for the remainder of the shift (unless they pass a psychological exam, perhaps, to give psychiatrists something to fucking do, and so that an officer that got ganked doesn't have his round ruined).

 

I can already tell that people will not stick to it. Especially in high action rounds. They will shrug it off and go back to work.

I understand why you'd say this, but it's more an enforced by Heads of Staff deal. A security officer literally not being allowed back to work would be different than them just being advised to RP their cloning.

Link to comment

There's half the problem though. We want to enforce a change that lasts through every single round, regardless of jobs occupied. If it's a head of staff deal, what would happen in a round with no heads? We're mostly thinking of a way to prevent medical from turning into a cloning factory when sec engages the mercs for example.

Link to comment
There's half the problem though. We want to enforce a change that lasts through every single round, regardless of jobs occupied. If it's a head of staff deal, what would happen in a round with no heads? We're mostly thinking of a way to prevent medical from turning into a cloning factory when sec engages the mercs for example.

You could say the same thing about an incompetent officer breaking the law that needs to be demoted. There's an SOP, and it's followed, Head of Staff or none. If someone breaks it, security will be able to either peacefully or, depending the circumstances, non-peacefully, deal with it. You can't have a sec cloning factory if sec is barred off from the cloned.


The main reason why I'm so averse to having a mechanical limitation is because it so heavily stifles creativity in roleplay. If it's a PTSD style mechanic, it will either force a character to act in a way they don't feel is what their character should be like, or they'd be acting like that anyway. There's no net positive outcome for the person cloned.

If it's a "oh, they're cloned without X organs" or similar, the issue presents itself that the person cloned is going to be spending a LONG time staring at the oh-so-familiar tunnel vision screen while they have surgery performed on them. They don't get to roleplay, and just have to sit waiting for the surgery to finish before they stand up and charge back out.


We're a heavy RP game. So much can be fixed not by OOC intervention, but by building on the aspects that make our game so appealing. Add an IC regulation preventing them from going back to work, and that's that. People that try to break it will get arrested, and although it's not a perfect system it's a million times better than controlling how people play their own characters.

Link to comment

Ornias, there are solutions that don't force people to play their chars differently. Making cloning harder mechanically (paying for cloning, adding a random disability that can be cured, limited clonings per shift, etc) doesn't force people to play their chars differently. It isn't 'controlling'.

We are talking about a small change in an existing mechanic, not changing everything from ground up.

Link to comment
Ornias, there are solutions that don't force people to play their chars differently. Making cloning harder mechanically (paying for cloning, adding a random disability that can be cured, limited clonings per shift, etc) doesn't force people to play their chars differently. It isn't 'controlling'.

We are talking about a small change in an existing mechanic, not changing everything from ground up.

I'm referring to the examples given by other people, not the ones you mentioned. What you mentioned isn't controlling at all, don't get me wrong, because it focuses on the world around the characters rather than the characters themselves.

The ones that you mentioned, while I can understand where your thought process is coming from, doesn't really stop the problem that you want it to. Paying for cloning will do very little because of how little value money has OOCly, a disability will likely be able to be cured very quickly, medication will likely be prepared by chemists long before anyone even dies, and the limited clonings per shift is unlikely to fix the problem because it's very rare to take more than one or two waves of security to take down an antag.

IC solutions to OOC issues boys. That's the dream.

Link to comment

The money thing would be fixed very quickly with persistent economy as if we'd ever get that. Ahem, sorry.

Money has very little meaning unless cloning is so expensive barely anyone can afford it. That is a good point.


Disabilities can't be fixed unless we add genetics back and they treat it. Unless those are special disabilities.


And the limited cloning thing won't work either unless the amount of allowed clonings is very low.


Those are good points indeed.

But those were just brainstorming ideas, far from perfect, its why we are asking the community for their suggestions.

While I do appreciate the IC solution, personally I'd rather have a change in mechanics so nobody is exempt of it.

Link to comment

I liked the idea back on page one of a LACE, or some sort of memory system people need implemented to know... yanno, who they are. Else, they're just a memoryless, vatborn husk. This is a good way to give it some more process and consequence without totally fucking over everything ever.


If we make this too hard and totally gimp it, we're just going to be shooting ourselves in the foot. I heavily agree with Sue here to be honest.



And to Trick: a lot of what you proposed just isn't realistically possible. People wouldn't be born without organs or limbs unless you REALLY fucked up the cloning process.


Maybe add that as a consequence if you try to clone people too quickly or rush job everything. But having a clone without half its organs be normal is just asking for irreversible, debilitating, "get the flamethrower" genetic horrors from a realistic standpoint

Link to comment

Personally I'd make the synthmeat cost way higher.


The consciousness lace I remember seeing probably isn't a good idea seeing as it's rather close to transhumanism, something AFAIK is not planned to be touched.


Other solutions would be requiring physical therapy (I think I saw this one. It makes sense - a flash-grown body that never walked will be need to learn even if the recipient was a hiker, because we don't consciously walk.


Another solution (which I admit may not be a solution at all) is to treat it at-cost to NT - which basically implies that it would GENERALLY be under insurance, but paperwork has to be filed to make it happen (by the CMO) and like any abuse of the system, CMOS that don't fill it, fill it wrong or fill it fraudulently too often are demoted.


Yet another "solution" is to bring back the genetics role as "Physiocloning Specialist" and ID lock it to them (the name of the title doesn't matter as much as making a specialist of the cloning - much like how science is generally locked away from xenobio)


My final solution is this: along with, or instead of the synthmeat cost increase, make the machine require massive amounts of power. More than is sustainable for more than one or two people per half hour or hour let's say. That way, it works two-way: if the docs do it too much for no reason, they get yelled at by command and engineering for causing brown-outs. But if the situation is REALLY dire, the station can coordinate - cut power off from entire areas or set up a second engine to provide all the power needed to clone people. And for added risk, if the cloning lab loses power or has a brown-out because of abusing the cloner without preparation, the cloning fails - either killing the clone or spawning it with missing limbs, organs and with massive disabilities possibly.


Oh, and if brain transplant still works, there's an option that will also make science happy possibly. Make the cloner a protohuman making machine that creates an identical body to the victim using a blood sample (encouraging people to visit the medbay to store a sample), and require a brain transplant (and maybe some rejuvenation in a cryo pod after defibrillation) to actually have "cloned" them. Bonus points for dodging the whole "am I me" issue, but minus points for requiring a living brain.

Link to comment
We're a heavy RP server, not everything needs to be mechanical.

This. I feel like making cloning harder would pretty much just hurt the lowpop rounds where some of the only players online are less likely to have a competent surgeon or medical cyborg on hand to address any extra medical problems. What are we gaining by complicating this mechanic? If players aren't correctly/adequately roleplaying the condition of being cloned, they're basically not roleplaying believably and it's supposed to be bwoinkable. All we write in our rules is that it 'should be a traumatic experience.' If expectations were a bit stronger in the rules, or the effects more explicitly described to the player in the text they get when respawning in the clone pod (because everybody reads the rules amirite) maybe that's all I would want to change. More clicking is not usually more interesting for anyone.


That said, if we HAD to complicate it just because, I'd be in favor of the credit charge (more interesting when the persistent economy never happens is implemented - bankruptcy = permadeath?) or another change that is more roleplay focused than randomly not having a liver. We should be putting it on players to make it a significant thing for a character, not the game mechanics. Attempts to reconcile silly gameplay with a serious concept will end in dissatisfaction.

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...