[2 Binned] Revert multi game modes.

[Scheveningen]

Merging multiple antagonist types into singular game modes was definitely a mistake in its making. Combining gamemodes such as Conflux, Crossfire and Paranoia together do nothing more than actively create horrible situations for the station that they cannot deal with without shifting to a specific meta-mindset that involves ruthlessly murdering and annihilating the antagonists from those factions.

The security department is not adequately equipped roundstart to face off a mercenary team and a heist team with random chances for different assortments of highly lethal weaponry such as broadswords that decapitate in barely a few swings. These game modes would be fine by themselves as they ought to be, but they otherwise do not create interesting roleplay beyond pointless instantaneous murder and effectively pushing /tg/ gamemodes onto a heavy roleplay server.

This does not push the example we wish to be making when we advertise ourselves as a server that emphasizes dialogue and deeper interaction between characters and antagonists.

It is the problem of the game mode when two forces are granted the free means and ability to overpower the general station populace without much fighting back due to our rigid ruleset on fear roleplay and ensuring characters stay balanced. Unlike on /tg/, doctors aren't expected to shove over mercenaries, grab their gun and ruthlessly gun down the hapless idiot that let someone get close to them.

So unless we plan to revise the rules based on who can conflict with whom and relax restrictions greatly, the multiple game mode types need to be removed. Autotraitor already fulfills the purpose in keeping conflict constant by adding new folks into the traitor roster over time. As for the other game modes, the antagonists simply need to not die and work together if they are a team-based unit. Otherwise if they're lone wolves they obviously just need to definitely not die if they want to continue RPing as a spacey wizzer or a sneaky ninja.

[Bygonehero]

I thought the point of the new modes was to keep the game interesting. The same thing over and over gets boring.

[Chada1]

100% against removing them. The majority of the server votes for these rounds, and I mostly do it because they involve the entire Station more instead of two Departments, the Crew tends to have to work together during them instead of just Security and Heads dealing with it, since they tend to have more Antagonists to drive the narrative.

They aren't in the Secret selection, they have to be voted. I see the point on being more chaotic, but that is the Point of them and with the majority of the server base voting them, I don't agree that it's a problem.

As for the 'Security' issue, you know that every single round, you're able to call a 4-size heavily armed, equipped and trained Squad capable of assisting Security...? They are fully able to defeat these Antagonists nearly by themselves, and any previously killed Crew can join as them. Antagonists have always had to struggle against the ERT and Station normally, I see no reason the Station having to struggle against the Antagonists is so bad. If the Antagonists are too much for Security, the Heads should call the ERT. Nothing ever stopped them before, I don't know what's stopping them now. Compare an ERT to a Heist team and tell me that's fair. Merc vs ERT is more even but ERT still comes out ontop. How many of these rounds were the ERT actually called?

I would be all for the idea of editing them into Secret with a very low draw rate from the status-quo, as an alternative.

[Guest Menown]

During a Conflux round earlier today, I as a member of security and a part of the cult tried to paint the Wizard of the round as a Blasphemer, and given cultists a target other than the crew or security.

This went as well as expected, with security stopping us as best they could which in turn ended up with them getting hacked to death by fifteen manifested ghosts.

The only multi-antag round I dislike is paranoia, which honestly is just tatorling at its most.

[Skull132]

Point one, regarding reeeeverts in general. Most features are given a grace period of 1 month post implementation before a revert is even reviewed. This is to stop any and all kneejerk reactions. Now, considering that the gamemodes aren't even "live", by definition of them not being in master and playable 24/7, I will not make a decision on whether or not we'll keep or revert them until much, much later.

Point two is what Chada posted. I don't think I need to echo this. Also consider that every new feature is subject to the standard reaction of, "Ooo, this is new! Let's go play this constantly!" It usually dies down after a month.

Points three to five are also what Chada pointed out, his reply is actually pretty great.

Point six is one which the head memes asked me to review, the potential of adding another sec officer or so into the roster. I include this here because it may help with regards to some of the issues a little.

TL;DR: Reeeevert will not be viewed in earnest until 1 month post release. As is custom.

[NoahKirchner]

In all honesty, it gets sort of boring to vote secret every round and never even know about antags if it's anything but merc or heist.

Half the vampire, ling, rev and traitor rounds, all you hear in OOC afterwards it about how it was basically "extended". Sure, these gamemodes are hectic, but it's essentially like the opposite extended mode. You vote extended where you want to chair RP all round, you vote conflux or crossfire when you want an action packed story that's a struggle to survive through instead of a docile one.

[Scheveningen]

In all honesty, it gets sort of boring to vote secret every round and never even know about antags if it's anything but merc or heist.

 

The purpose of the secret game mode is to prevent conscious or subconscious metagame about what to expect from the gamemode in taking place.

If it is a secret no one knows, people will be surprised as soon as they encounter the antagonist, certainly moreso than if it was voted specific game modes in particular.

This goes against the spirit of fluid and organic roleplay when everyone on the server can easily type Check-Round-Info and immediately judge whether or not they should join the round.

The combined game modes exacerbate this problem, as very few people want to join halfway into a round of a Malf+traitor+ling round.

If the combined game modes are to be kept, they had best be rolled into secret weighted below the other game modes due to their frequency in causing rounds to close out before two hours due to the wanton destruction that takes place. They would be better off actually being removed altogether especially since nobody voted to have this, whether it's for experimental purposes or not this kind of change should've been reviewed with the community first.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I disagree with this suggestion. The multiple game modes provide a swath of new possibilities and interactions between antagonists and the crew, and antagonists vs antagonists.

There is nothing wrong with the station 'losing'. You are not obligated to winning against antagonists, or having the round end with a station victory. Antagonists rolling over security is a valid occurrence if it serves a greater narrative. I myself have deeply enjoyed the double game modes because the entire crew is involved in some way or another.

You are wrong to say that 'nobody wanted this'. The game modes are being consistently voted for. Before newmap, secret was the dominant game mode available by a landslide. During new map we have these dual game modes, or secret.

Keeping dual game modes is also wonderful in combating against metagaming. If there are cultists as well as a wizard then metagamers will have a much harder time in taking to their standard formula for that round type.

[Scheveningen]

There is nothing wrong with the station 'losing'. You are not obligated to winning against antagonists, or having the round end with a station victory. Antagonists rolling over security is a valid occurrence if it serves a greater narrative. I myself have deeply enjoyed the double game modes because the entire crew is involved in some way or another.

 

There's something wrong with a game mode when it inevitably causes the round to end with an emergency shuttle rather abruptly before two hours even hits the mark rather than permitting the entire server to at least pitch a vote on whether they want to reboot the server. Crossfire is effectively only a few steps away from calamity in terms of expected station destruction.

Consider: Mercenaries get three near-max-yield explosives roundstart as well as access to a plethora of equally deadly weapons whose sole purpose is to take people out of the round. Ditto with heisters, except they can be Vox with ammo-regenerating spike cannons or have access to broadswords that decapitate in barely a few swings, high-power guns such as mind flayers that kill people instantly in a few shots through armor due to interactions with brain damage, a guaranteed stealth suit that never breaks stealth in combat, a guaranteed sniper rifle to spawn in the skipjack, and other such tools that only exist

Wanting to mix the two most potentially action-intensive game modes into one results in the obvious: pointless death and wanton destruction. Even cult and vampire on their own have better opportunities for victims of antagonism.

Pure action does not guarantee roleplay. And it rarely ever delivers on that mark, the only exceptions being when either the entire mercenary team happens to have a solid gimmick and decent players in those roles on interacting with the entirety of the station without sweeping it with fully automatic weapons. Not exactly worth gambling on since the antagonist drafting system doesn't pick the best people for the role. Especially with the new map being tested, you have a greater guarantee of half your team falling into holes because none of them knew how to play with the hazards of the new map.

 

You are wrong to say that 'nobody wanted this'. The game modes are being consistently voted for. Before newmap, secret was the dominant game mode available by a landslide. During new map we have these dual game modes, or secret.

 

Reread my post. There was no vote on this to be implemented in the first place. This is a big change to be making in terms of game mode lineup and the feedback stage was bypassed in order to add flex game modes. Correct me if I'm wrong, skull, but it is probably better practice to be seeking feedback on bigger stuff like this from the community to see if they actually want it before deciding to merge it. Bugfixes, QOL changes and other small !fun! additions doesn't mandate its own forum post, but adding crisscross game modes is not exactly an insignificant change to be making.

People will vote for crossfire because it's a significantly higher chance of getting put on either antagonist team contrasting with mercenary. 5 people get put on each team, out of the 25 required. That's 10 out of 25. 40% solid chance. Compare with mercenary by itself, which varies depending on existing server pop, at least 3 at most 5. That is up to a 33% chance during a mercenary round if we're assuming the people who ready up are the exact amount needed. Regardless, there's still a 7% margin which is much more significant in terms of weighing chance. That's pretty amazing.

 

Keeping dual game modes is also wonderful in combating against metagaming. If there are cultists as well as a wizard then metagamers will have a much harder time in taking to their standard formula for that round type.

 

It doesn't, though, because if it was wizard and cult combined in conflux you already know there will be a wizard and a cult in that round. It is not a random roll thing and people will more proactively take borderline actions to account for both. A round is not fun when you don't have to make substantiated guesses on what the round type is and who the bad guy is. With wizards, it's more blatantly obvious, and with cultists, not so much until they decide to act characteristically suspicious in the form of a cultist.

Secret antagonists still have the element of surprise ranging from as soon as they spoil it 10 minutes in to an extremely long time where they keep on their toes and avoid making critical mistakes. This is more of a boon to the antagonist than it is to the crew, but normal players generally are more able to ease into doing their jobs rather than focusing on chasing an antagonist up until that starts to be a relevant course of action.

Ideally if you wanted to crush most chances of passive metagaming we'd only permit voting for secret or extended (assuming we exclude extended from ever being in the secret rotation), and we'd roll every game-mode including cross-fire (bleh) into the rotation, slightly under the other game modes simply because it'd be fair.

[Skull132]

Correct me if I'm wrong, skull, but it is probably better practice to be seeking feedback on bigger stuff like this from the community to see if they actually want it before deciding to merge it.

 

And I will correct you.

I'd have probably test merged all of the gamemodes for a month anyways. Purely because it is impossible to gauge their full impact in theory. Considering the ease with which these gamemodes can be tweaked, there's little need to get it right the first time around. Which is why theoretical feedback was not really requested.

By the same token, I thoroughly expect changes to be made after the first month is up.

[Ornias]

Gonna throw in my two cents here.

Having powerful antagonists is equal parts a boon and a risk. It's a boon because it means the antagonists can tell a compelling story and be genuine threats to the station, without needing to be worried about their story being cut off by an officer emptying a laser carbine into them when they're typing. If the community was perfect, and everyone on-server was an excellent roleplayer, I'd be in full support of giving antagonists some pretty unfair firepower against the station, with the understanding that they'd use it to create some very enjoyable scenarios and set themselves realistic weaknesses. Unfortunately, and I see where Delta is coming from, not every player is experienced enough to do that, and a pretty sizable chunk don't want to (including players migrating from other servers where antagonists are more win-focused), so antagonists are still limited in power. Tough enough to take on the crew, but if the crew organizes themselves the antagonist will almost always lose, and will always be at a huge disadvantage.

Gamemodes like traitor, rev, and cult tend to be more chaotic gamemodes because the teams aren't always "on the same page" and are often underpowered when they face the crew head-on. Revolutionaries may all be fighting as antagonists, but it's rare that they're all rallied behind the same common cause, and without any additional power they need to push hard in order to stand a chance against the station. Traitors very rarely bother with the codewords or trying to work together, and need to fight hard if they want to stand a chance against an organized security team, no matter what kind of neat toys they get. And cults, even though arguably very powerful, basically need to be stealthy and ganky to be able to advance. You can disagree with me on that, but cults are given tools like the stun talisman and convert rune for a reason.

Now, I think Crossfire has both the highest and lowest potential out of practically any roundtype (with the exception of, say, Paranoia). Mercs are powerful. Heisters are powerful. Working together, they can take down a station pretty consistently (unless the station REALLY gets their shit together). But, if disorganized, then it can very, very quickly take on the worst aspects of most gamemodes - overpowered murderbone simulation.

I think there should be more encouragement for the two of them to communicate and build a solid reason for them both being there at the same time. Even just red text on spawn, "REMEMBER TO PLAN WITH THE HEISTERS/MERCS". At it's best, we're going to see two teams of antagonists who can make the game interesting for an even wider selection of people on station because of their superior firepower and numbers. But I'm going to bet that Delta was unlucky enough to experience the bad end of the type - two groups who were uncoordinated and out for blood, who weren't exactly going out of their way to make a story so much as to kill the crew.

I'm glad that Crossfire exists. It doesn't need to be removed - but it needs to be carefully watched over in order to ensure that the teams are doing what antagonists are supposed to do here: make the round fun. After all, a storytelling experience is where Aurora shines. Otherwise we'd all be playing on servers more dedicated to the combat.

[Synnono]

I'm in support of keeping these modes. Most of them provide more opportunities for nuanced antagonist play where the antag players aren't only out to screw the station or crew. While it requires buy-in from the antags (and more antags in general), you can create some interesting scenarios with a bit of AOOC planning and a scrap of imagination and improv.

If everyone goes full murderbone and isn't interested in making a story, then yes, it's bad, but so is any antag mode. We also have to learn how to play these new roundtypes as players and antags - it's been about five days' worth of testing time on a map we don't know and haven't finished, and the feature is not even live yet. Give it some time to generate some good rounds along with the bad before we talk tweaks.

[Arrow768]

Over the weekend I am saw quite a few very interesting merc + heist rounds.

Then back on Monday we had the usual merc round:

• Bomb Tcoms
  
• Teleport to the bridge and steal the disk
  
• Bomb Security
  
• Red + ERT
  
• Kill everyone they run into while trying to avoid ERT
  

 

So I definitely prefer the new mixed modes if there is proper oversight so that the power given is not abused but rather used to do something interesting with it.

[LordFowl]

Voting for dismissal. As everyone above has pointed out, multi game modes have proven a refreshing mix, along with Skull's commentary on reverts.

[Skull132]

Ye, as per revert policy, adding the second dismissal vote.

If the gamemodes are an issue after a month from their full release, please make a new thread.

+1 vote for dismissal, archiving as well as we reached 2.