Input Request: New Unathi Religion

[Tomiix]

Greetings players!

I am the Unathi Lore Deputy, Tomiix! Known as TomiixStarslasher in game, and most well known for playing Azala Huz'kai. (Formerly Azala Guwan)

One of my stated goals as a Unathi Developer is giving the unathi homeworld more life and definition. I have been recently working on a whole new faction that is going to have some sub-factions. While talking them out with Jackboot we reached a point in my ideas that stubbed our collective idea toe... sorry for the weird analogy. It was a note that we felt might not be something the players would be entirely happy with.

SO, while trying to be VERY VAGUE to not spoil SUPER COOL PLOT I would like to poll the playerbase, Unathi players or not about how they feel about this topic. As a disclaimer, people who play unathi's opinion will be weighed more, of course. Though all input is appreciated. If you are going to give feedback, please be familiar with the Unathi lore... if you aren't your feedback will be hard to receive. It would also help me very much if you let me know if you play Unathi and if you do... who you play as!

These things aside, let's get into the pitch.

When making new factions and nations of people, something that naturally comes up is new religions. At least one of our sub-factions is going to have a new religion. It has origins in Th'akh thought but has become different enough over time to now be it's own thing.

They believe that the soul is perfect, and that the body is quite literally just an imperfect vessel for the soul. That you need to develop your body to be worthy of the soul that contains it. They are the first group to actually believe in reincarnation, and that the spirit realm has a nirvana for those who are able to become balanced in all ways. While those on the path are reincarnated into new bodies, those who lead away from it find their spirits blessing the objects of those on the path. Or if you try to hinder those on the path, you become a bane on the world in the spirit realm.

One of their main controversial points, and the one I wanted to bring up to you, is their stance on synthetics. They will be the first Unathi faction, and only Unathi religion totally hunky-dory with Prosthetics and Synthetics.

Here is their reasoning

- They view their bodies as vessels, and that is it. They are highly spiritual, and wish to hone their bodies to live up to their spirit. If a part of their body is destroyed, they cannot let that get in their way of perfecting themselves. So they opt to have prosthesis specially designed to be a temple for that part of their soul. While they prefer to have it be natural, they view this as a satisfactory option.

- They view Synthetic beings as useful tools. One of their leaders and main practitioners would need to pass on his secret knowledge, and techniques. So he had a Shell designed to look like him, and studied his behavior, took in his knowledge, and learned his techniques, so that it could pass it on for generations to come. These beings are blessed and are believed to house the spirits of these teachers at times. These are rarely applied however, and are still rare to find. They arent treated as people, and the before mentioned shell would have markings similar to a tag designating him as a shell. However they wouldn't mind IPC's coming into their borders, and would even believe that some of them are vessels that are housing a reincarnated soul. The aforementioned shell is revered as a teacher and considered a animated shrine to their old teacher.

So this is my first question, what do you feel about this? Do you think it would be fitting for a Unathi faction to be okay with prosthesis and synths in these fringe cases, and could believe that they could be home to a soul like a weapon could?

Another idea I had for them, but was not sure if the player-base would receive it is a bit more adult in nature. In an attempt to touch and build on a doctrine Jackboot implemented recently determining how Unathi feel about souls that are gendered differently from their bodies, this faction would have a weird stance on it as well.

- (Nothing to see here, it just derailed the conversation and is too gross for the community apparently. I'm gonna focus on the prosthesis and synthetics)

Please feel free to leave thoughts about this as a comment response, please do specify what you are commenting on for clarity.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Guest

[Zundy]

We've been over the fact numerous times that Unathi do not have dicks, they have [redacted to protect the innocent] and therefore things like practicing genital modification is pointless. The gender dimorphism of the Unathi is also very large so modifications like the above also would be pointless IMO. Personally I'd really like to steer clear of projecting human gender issues onto Unathi. Pls no Unathi traps.

The religion in general, sounds rad. I personally have a Unathi main invested in this on the said of pro-synth. Making it another religion though doesn't much make sense to me. It'd make more sense for it to be a schism in the Sk'ath religion a la East Orthodox Christians and Catholics in my opinion.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Guest

[Tomiix]

I'm not REALLY going to comment on Unathi genitalia besides vague historical equivalences. Maybe I set the bad precedent by even daring to mention it.

Currently there is no canon definition of what Unathi genitalia is. Jackboot continues to, and I will double down on this, deny to define it. I refuse to simply to respect Jackboot and his refusal to do so. (Although I believe shying away from the topic simply creates it's own problems.) I have my own head canon on how it works, and surely you do too. Nonetheless the intention was to dramatically prove how far they are willing to perfect themselves to how they feel their spirit is. There is still noticeable dymorphism they can seek to change, like hip size and muzzle shape. (This is a reference to Chinese foot bindings and wrappings.)

They do not believe in a centralized god like Sk'akh worshipers do. They will be an offset of Th'akh thought and concepts. Believing in a general spirit world, and those that remain in it enlightened and in a state of total harmony are those who achieve total harmony and self-actualization in life. The religion is intended to be SUPER old, and eventually found it's own way. Their major differences to Sk'akh would likely bring them at end to each other, among other things I don't want to spoil.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Being supportive of Synthetics clashes with one of the core tenants of the species. It is very problematic because Unathi are not meant to be as radically diverse as humans. Support of synthetics is meant to be an outliner without official lore pillars to lean on. This sort of opening will definitely be exploited en masse. Many Unathi are already flocking to robotics and removing the stigma from it will remove a lot of roleplay potential in my opinion. A Unathi roboticist is an outlier and should not be a norm from a major faction.

[Kaed]

I would like to take a moment to stress that I really, really don't like this, but I am trying my best to be courteous here.

Skating over the skeevy stuff you added in about unathi gender identity, I feel that this concept countermands a lot of what makes unathi unique as a culture. Their mistrust of synthetic races for not having souls and distaste for modifying their bodies to replace battle injuries is, in my opinion, some of the most core tenants of what separates unathi/synthetic relations apart from how basically how every other races treats robotics.

What I feel like you are doing here is trying to make up a new religion to justify your ex-guwan roboticist getting deeper into their profession. It's already a little weird to have an unathi roboticist, but I feel like you want to create a scenario where it isn't strange anymore, and you can start dipping into transunathism.

I also want to bring up that the Th'akh religion is already woefully underrepresented by Jackboot's lore decisions, and adding a third secular religion that is directly likely to induce strong conflict with the other two religions will muddle things up and make it even harder for Th'akh traditionalists to get any screen time. And that's not even adding in the secular 'doomsayer' faction that Jackboot has mentioned he plans to implement at some point.

In summary, no. We don't need a religious faction to be added in that exists entirely to allow unathi players to discard half of their racial mentality and be buddies with robots and have prosthetic limbs. You can always go back to being a Guwan if you want Azala to do that.

[Tomiix]

Skating over the skeevy stuff you added in about unathi gender identity,

 

I take offense to this. There is nothing innately skeevy about this. You can find the subject uncomfortable and not want it represented in lore, that is fair. However talking about something that was done in ancient history in mature manner, could be a way to show just how serious and alien their thought process is towards their physical form, viewing themselves exclusively spiritual. If the community at large doesn't feel like they can handle that, that is fine.

 

What I feel like you are doing here is trying to make up a new religion to justify your ex-guwan roboticist getting deeper into their profession. It's already a little weird to have an unathi roboticist, but I feel like you want to create a scenario where it isn't strange anymore, and you can start dipping into transunathism.

 

I take GREATER offense to this. Nothing that I do when I make official Unathi Lore will involve Azala Huz'kai, be made to directly benefit Azala Huz'kai, or myself or my experiences on the station. Things I make might indirectly change things for her, but no. She was not going to convert from Sk'akh faith to this weird old religion after I made it just to make her robotics more accepted. Nor would that WORK out for her in the end anyway. You clearly don't interact with my character enough to insinuate that. So I will forgive the accusation.

In any case these people aren't going Transhumanist. They only use prosthetics as a means to their end, and use IPC's in fringe religious cases. Replacing their entire body with a synthetic one would defeat the purpose of uniting their body and soul in the first place.

I feel like if half of Unathi racial identity is synth bashing and prosthesis hating, then Unathi as a race are very two-dimensional, and is failing at feeling like an organic and approachable species for those with various character ideas. In reality a species of people wouldn't have x y and z social traits that are always consistent and unyielding. Unless otherwise stated these alien races, including Unathi come from a time period where there were multiple counties, and likely cultures. While they will be alien in nature, and share a overarching theme. They would still have differences and not all agree on the same things all the time.

I scoff at the idea that the entire species has to be defined by a stance on robotics, or any one political or spiritual issue. Skrell get an exception because their species literally went through a genocide from unrestricted dependence on AI.

When you play a human, you get a wide variety of cultural influences, accents, ideals and identity. I am trying to give Unathi a fraction of that.

[Tomiix]

I have to make an additional comment.

The goal with what I am bringing to the table was to make Unathi LESS two dimensional and incorporate more life onto the planet of Moghes, and shift the focus back onto the world and it's social politics/interpersonal issues and drama. Of which it has plenty of potential for. Currently it feels like you can ONLY play Unathi one way. Wherein by comparison, Tajaran characters have a wide birth and don't have such limitations.

[Coalf]

We've been over the fact numerous times that Unathi do not have dicks, they have [redacted to protect the innocent] and therefore things like practicing genital modification is pointless. The gender dimorphism of the Unathi is also very large so modifications like the above also would be pointless IMO. Personally I'd really like to steer clear of projecting human gender issues onto Unathi. Pls no Unathi traps.

Gender dimorphism isn't restricted to tittes+benis/bagina, actually saying that it's only restricted to sexual organs is precisely what you would call enforcing human gender issues onto them.

The difference between Unathi females/males would most likely be muzzle Size/Width/Length, Tail Size/width, Hip Size/Width, Horn Size.

And to quote directly from the lore,

"Because the soul is separate from the vessel that is the physical body, it is accepted that a soul could have been given a body of the different sex when developing in an egg. This means that a particularly strong-willed female with aspirations to enter a traditionally masculine field could be said to have the soul of a man trapped in a woman's body in a mindset that is both surprisingly progressive to outsiders but also extremely patronizing. This does not change the low status that women have in the society, and Priests have historically only pointed out that this phenomenon exists."

Gender issues are a thing already so I don't see why it's a problem now?

 

Being supportive of Synthetics clashes with one of the core tenants of the species. It is very problematic because Unathi are not meant to be as radically diverse as humans. Support of synthetics is meant to be an outliner without official lore pillars to lean on. This sort of opening will definitely be exploited en masse. Many Unathi are already flocking to robotics and removing the stigma from it will remove a lot of roleplay potential in my opinion. A Unathi roboticist is an outlier and should not be a norm from a major faction.

 

Actually wouldn't this cause a lot of internal and external friction in Unathi? While yes the playerbase is much smaller and the amount of people is very limited, doesn't this kinda make the alien species one-dimensional?

While I agree this might be a bit of a far-stretch from the basis of what their culture represents I wouldn't condemn it as a completely bad thing.

By the by I agreed completely with Jackboots on this until I thought about it a bit more and the only excuse of "Don't do it" was people who don't play unathi being confused as to why this unathi is friendly to robots while that one isn't, but that would lead to those people asking questions about unathi and maybe actually reading the lore and being interested in it.

I'm not leaning on a yes or a not yet, I'll be sitting on the fence because I'm interested to see how this will evolve.

And I don't get the outrage Kaed?

If Tomiix wanted to put in lore for his character he wouldn't be making a public feedback thread where everyone can access it and give their opinion on, he could have simply discussed it in private with Jackboots and implemented it on their lonesome as is done with majority of new lore.

I am interested in continued discussion even as a non-unathi player.

[Tomiix]

If people largely have an issue with the synthetic thing, it isn't a hill that I plan to die on, I am writing lore to please the playerbase, and to get more people to play and enjoy Unathi.

I feel Kaed's concern about Th'akh, and plan on highlighting Th'akh more, since I have noted and agree that Sk'akh steals most of the spotlight.

I am hoping to hear more about people's input on a faction that is slightly more accepting of Synthetics and prothesis than normal. I have decided to drop the gender thing for now since that will muddle the conversation and unfocus it.

[Zundy]

[mention]Coalf[/mention] I didn't just mean gentials, I meant the whole hog but that's by the by since we're dropping that white hot can of neutron worms.

I reiterate that instead of making a new religion, why not add various "denominations" for the current ones instead for people to use? Not just this pro-synth Th'akh one but others for both Sk'akh and Th'akh?

[Coalf]

@Zundy just pointing out the whole "Sexual Dymorphysm" already IS in the lore, hell it's included in BOTH of the major religions.

[Zundy]

[mention]Coalf[/mention]

Yeah, as a "people accept that a male Unathi might have a female soul" not "cut those horns off, plump up those hips" proto-transgender shtick. That *is* humanising them in my opinion. But like I said it's not relevent to this anymore.

[Coalf]

[mention]Zundy[/mention] let me try again with this mention thing.

But in their context it makes sense, if the soul is perfect but the body is at fault how is it exactly an issue?

I agree perhaps it focuses too much on gender, maybe it should focus more on general apperance and the tendency of them to "adjust" themselves by removing or adding certain features that may seem dumb or nonsensical to someone else.

This CAN be done to make the species seem more alien and less human, we just need to shift the focus point a bit.

[Zundy]

You're literally talking about gender reassignment surgery fam. Just because they're chopping off or changing bits that humans wouldn't or don't care about in regards to our genders, that doesn't mean it's "alien". It's an absolutely human thing. It'd be unique if the Unathi didn't give a heck about their physical gender identity and didn't feel gender dysphoria in my opinion, all of which are very human and not alien in the slightest traits.

[Coalf]

MY BOY

This is as much fo a feedback application as it is suggestion.

Just because it is about that right now doesn't meant IT HAS TO BE.

I'm saying that something SIMILAR to it could be added to make them seem more different and less focused on that one point.

[Zundy]

Well I agree with that you dummy. Something to be looked into at another time perhaps.

[Bygonehero]

My take away from unathi is that they always viewed the soul as a perfect thing, as you said, and the body as its vessel.

Using this thinking, I would think that cybernetic lifeforms would be an absolute abomination, it is akin to necromancy. Fettering the soul into eternal servitude, denying it the release of the next existence. Cyborg shells would be seen as vessels to trap the soul, and synthetics would be seen as an attempt to mimic the soul. For surely, if a soul can be made by mere mortals, it devalues the idea of it being a perfect thing. How can imperfect creatures create a soul after all?

As for the gender identity thing, I don't want SJWs in my spacemans, we can keep that ambiguous, thanks.

[Tomiix]

Coalf and Zundy making me want to cry.

[mention]Bygonehero[/mention]

The unathi already believe that spirits can poses common objects for small amounts of time. If they made shells like a shrine, and they had the capacity to hold souls that would seem to fit their lore.

The spirit isn't bound to the shell forever, just like how the spirits wouldnt be bound to a sword forever.

They idea behind prosthetics is that they 'extend' their souls into prosthetics like ancestor spirits can enter objects.

Again both would be limitedy used. I am not saying this faction is going to be literally decked out in cybernetics and have industrials running around.

[Scheveningen]

When making new factions and nations of people, something that naturally comes up is new religions. At least one of our sub-factions is going to have a new religion. It has origins in Th'akh thought but has become different enough over time to now be it's own thing.

 

Interesting.

 

They believe that the soul is perfect, and that the body is quite literally just an imperfect vessel for the soul. That you need to develop your body to be worthy of the soul that contains it.

 

I hope someone told them that they peak in their Unathi equivalent of their late 20s.

 

They are the first group to actually believe in reincarnation, and that the spirit realm has a nirvana for those who are able to become balanced in all ways.

 

This seems eerily similar to what that Siddhārtha Gautama guy posited.

 

While those on the path are reincarnated into new bodies, those who lead away from it find their spirits blessing the objects of those on the path. Or if you try to hinder those on the path, you become a bane on the world in the spirit realm.

 

'Local chicken bone touched by wayward spirit, village collapsed simultaneously upon realization.' Furthermore, if you get in their way, they will run you over in the afterlife. Suddenly I'm not quite liking where this may go.

 

One of their main controversial points, and the one I wanted to bring up to you, is their stance on synthetics. They will be the first Unathi faction, and only Unathi religion totally hunky-dory with Prosthetics and Synthetics.

 

Why do I always get these bad feelings two seconds before they actually become a real issue. That aside, this already doesn't bode well for the mold initially set as part of the Unathi narrative junctions. Machines are completely soulless. They are nothing, it is worse than a Sinta losing a part of themselves and becoming naught but a hollow dead husk drained of what life they had left in them. Machines that can think but cannot express themselves through the metaphorical heart are destined only for an amoral and almost deadened existence, that is the Unathi dogma that is pushed and overall believed. And maybe they're right.

 

- They view their bodies as vessels, and that is it. They are highly spiritual, and wish to hone their bodies to live up to their spirit. If a part of their body is destroyed, they cannot let that get in their way of perfecting themselves. So they opt to have prosthesis specially designed to be a temple for that part of their soul. While they prefer to have it be natural, they view this as a satisfactory option.

 

A soulless being is to be feared. It possesses nothing that can be celebrated. The more you succumb to the idea that the flesh has become weak, the less you allow the flesh to influence you to simply "just be." At what cost does it come to a Sinta not only to lose a part of their body but have it be replaced by some craven machine limb? It is unthinkable, a corruption of the body.

 

- They view Synthetic beings as useful tools. One of their leaders and main practitioners would need to pass on his secret knowledge, and techniques. So he had a Shell designed to look like him, and studied his behavior, took in his knowledge, and learned his techniques, so that it could pass it on for generations to come. These beings are blessed and are believed to house the spirits of these teachers at times. These are rarely applied however, and are still rare to find. They arent treated as people, and the before mentioned shell would have markings similar to a tag designating him as a shell. However they wouldn't mind IPC's coming into their borders, and would even believe that some of them are vessels that are housing a reincarnated soul. The aforementioned shell is revered as a teacher and considered a animated shrine to their old teacher.

 

Nothing is scarier to a Sinta than being approached by someone they believe they know, only for that fellow Sinta to be an impostor. A soul-less machine husk that walks, talks and pretends like it is a Sinta, and damn well makes a good impression of it. Worse, the idea that a shell just replaced one of their closest clan brothers or sisters, and that it could happen not only again but on a wider scale. If the Unathi ever used the term "heresy" often, this would be one of the times they would use it.

 

So this is my first question, what do you feel about this? Do you think it would be fitting for a Unathi faction to be okay with prosthesis and synths in these fringe cases, and could believe that they could be home to a soul like a weapon could?

 

Sinta are irrevocably stubborn, this is their nature. Their stubbornness has proven both to be a strength and a fault but has served them better as a strength. It seems very unlikely any Sinta would be so accepting of synthetics considering how they are a bastardization of life. It could be compared to a dark sorcery but most Sinta know better, yet still cannot help but fear and hate the synthetic. Perhaps largely out of not understanding, and also out of an unhealthy dose of bigotry, but the Sinta have believed for awhile that synthetics present a very clear threat to biological life (mostly just Unathi) and are extremely cautious if not hostile towards synthetics.

 

Another idea I had for them, but was not sure if the player-base would receive it is a bit more adult in nature. In an attempt to touch and build on a doctrine Jackboot implemented recently determining how Unathi feel about souls that are gendered differently from their bodies, this faction would have a weird stance on it as well.

 

I'm fairly certain the Marziites and other Hegemony officials would have these fellows brought to the desert to have their heads dunked straight into the sand dunes for engaging in wrongthink. There is a very marginal amount of ethics divergence in Unathi society.

The intention of some of -- rather, most if not all -- of these changes seem to be inching towards an ethos that the Unathi themselves would not adopt to the point of it becoming a minority yet still significant religion. The Sinta are heavy-rooted in tradition, and traditional values are what create unity and strength among their people. They look down on extreme progressive changes, especially if it undercuts cultural values.

I will not go over the second attempt I've seen of trying to make sexual expression inflated above other character priorities. You already know my opinion on this.

[Kaed]

I have to make an additional comment.

The goal with what I am bringing to the table was to make Unathi LESS two dimensional and incorporate more life onto the planet of Moghes, and shift the focus back onto the world and it's social politics/interpersonal issues and drama. Of which it has plenty of potential for. Currently it feels like you can ONLY play Unathi one way. Wherein by comparison, Tajaran characters have a wide birth and don't have such limitations.

 

I don't think you're looking at the matter in the right light, honestly. While it is certainly possible for a small set of unathi to believe a thing contrary to the overarching racial ideologies, it does not make them two dimensional if there is no significant group that supports it.

Let me give you an example that provides you more context, though. Humans, largely as a whole, consider cannibalism to be a taboo practice. No major power in the world would ever condone it, and while there are certainly countries and small groups that practice it, either religiously or out of desperation, the parts of the world that consider themselves 'civilized' look upon them with pity or disdain for being backwater savages or pathetic wretches. If you brought a human character onto the station that religiously believed cannibalism was an acceptable practice, and requested bodies from the morgue to prepare food with, do you think that anyone would agree to that? I really, really doubt it.

But that doesn't make human characters one-dimensional. It's just that there are some things that are so universally accepted as taboo by a species that it would be silly for you to try and make a character centered around it. Unathi do not think like humans do. You should not try and project human ways of thinking onto unathi, if you wish them to remain essentially unathi. There is a world of other things you can play with as far as unathi character personalities without focusing on this one aspect that you think makes them flat characters. Try looking at a larger picture rather than railing against what is set in stone.

[Loow]

Hey there. Loow here.

[mention]Tomiix[/mention], your post is long and reminds me of Reddit. Sad.

Seriously though, too long of an intro. One of us has to be the one who posts EZPZ posts. I see no bolded TL;DR either. Now that I've picked apart something meaningless with advice I myself would ignore, we can move on.

"New Unathi Religion" is disgusting as a phrase. We already have Dominia, which involves a bastardized religion which Unathi influenced despite only being around for like 20 years. Dominia is gross. Let's move on.

If you're gonna make a "new religion" it should either be an ANCIENT religion or a BASTARDIZATION brought upon by "recent" events.

Also, holy heck, the stance you care about the most is "synths are cool."

Sad.

We've already had "aaaa are synths cool aaaa" as multiple plotlines, arcs, and an ongoing theme. We spent over a year hammering the question of synthetics so hard that now it feels bland and passe. Two entire playable races are almost completely about that very question in the eyes of many. Frankly, this seems more like stripping a bit of culture away from one of the races rather than adding much to it. Why don't we just all play humans?

I don't like your idea. I think it is lame. I think Jackboot could like it because it is "literally any new content" and because it affords him space to let Unathi become major players in another market. I suggest going a different route. If your main kicker for a new religion is "oh yeah and they like robots" then miss me with that. Don't even bother.

"So this is my first question, what do you feel about this? Do you think it would be fitting for a Unathi faction to be okay with prosthesis and synths in these fringe cases, and could believe that they could be home to a soul like a weapon could?"

This idea couldn't be further out of my strike-zone. It's so far off-base that people in the stands are reaching to try and grab it and take it home.

Frankly, I'm disappointed.

"I strongly feel that this is an insult to life itself." - Hayao Miyazaki

 

The "aaa synths tho" question is so glaring that it distracts from any other good ideas you might have had. It seems the same can be said of the "gender question" you removed, which seems to have distracted quite a bit as well.

In as few words as possible: "Bad job."

[SleepyWolf]

Hi, unathi player here. I play Oher Srhuzu, a female with a male soul - I never thought of changing her in any way beyond her personality, because I feel that's all you need to roleplay that properly. If we want women to try to act more manly in Unathi culture, make them work out more and have them do sick pull-ups every day instead of changing something else.

I don't exactly like the ideas you've posted here, I feel like Unathi are already rather deep in places, and instead of adding another religion, making them Th'akh would probably feel better. Th'akh isn't really very centralized in its shit, shamans all over the galaxy probably all have their different views on everything and pass that down to the children they oversee. I feel we can already make enough 'Synthetics are OK' in terms of Th'akh, but I still don't like the idea of that. basically what Loow said.

also, as the player of Iron Mask Sonorous Zouzoror, I feel my character would literally be unable to stand literally anything so heretical on station.

tl;dr: i don't want this religion, and i don't want a valid religion on the wiki that will make more Unathi want to love synths. they can already do this with their own small-scale cult stuff. maybe instead of making a new religion flesh out Th'akh a bit, maybe by having history of previous religious wars.