[2 Dismissal] Remove Loyalty implants [Binned: 29/04/2018]

[LordFowl]

Such has already been suggested before, most recently in https://forums.aurorastation.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=9814&p=90566

[Kaed]

[mention]Sharp[/mention][mention]LordFowl[/mention]

I disliked the mindshield implants when they were suggested and I still dislike them as a concept. It dispenses with the idea that the company is trying to ensure the loyalty of their important employees and it has the side benefit of helping against the monsters with mind fuckery, and instead acknowledges that there is a reason you might need to protect the minds of high ranking officials from something that you are not allowed to acknowledge the existence of without metagaming.

It is my opinion that people who complain about loyalty implants derailing their character either don't fully understand the expectations they have for being an implanted individual (and think they are supposed to be NT's mind slaves) or created a character who is not actually loyal to NT in the proper fashion and are salty when they are pushed to act in a manner their character should already have been acting by playing in an implanted role.

I'm also a firm believer in the notion that character's personalities and behaviors are not set in stone and that creating situations that cause a paradigm shift are interesting, and create a situation of realism. People don't have a preprogrammed personality set that they don't diverge from, the circumstances of their surroundings bring out new aspects of a personality that would never have surfaced before. People who whine that mind affecting antags or loyalty implant obligations 'ruin their character' are missing the point of exploring a new aspect of how their character can interact with the world around them. That's what roleplaying is, you explore how a role would react to a scenario, even if the scenario is that Nar'sie brainfucked you into submission. Roll with the punches, try a new thing. Be insane and gibbering if you must from this, if you think your character would never suddenly be cool with the cult under normal circumstances.

[JMJ_99]

@Sharp @LordFowl

I disliked the mindshield implants when they were suggested and I still dislike them as a concept. It dispenses with the idea that the company is trying to ensure the loyalty of their important employees and it has the side benefit of helping against the monsters with mind fuckery, and instead acknowledges that there is a reason you might need to protect the minds of high ranking officials from something that you are not allowed to acknowledge the existence of without metagaming.

It is my opinion that people who complain about loyalty implants derailing their character either don't fully understand the expectations they have for being an implanted individual (and think they are supposed to be NT's mind slaves) or created a character who is not actually loyal to NT in the proper fashion and are salty when they are pushed to act in a manner their character should already have been acting by playing in an implanted role.

Loyalty implants imply the exact same as what you stated, you're contradicting your self.

Edit: I mean that theres a reason to distrust employees

 

snip

I'm fine with this suggestion, mindshields provide the balance that players want without ruining your character.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Guest

[Kaed]

Loyalty implants imply the exact same as what you stated, you're contradicting your self.

 

... No, they don't.

"You need to remain loyal to NT, we are your employer, ignore that thought that says to murder the CMO because she is also an NT employee." is not in any way the same as "This thing protects you from mental attacks telling you to murder the CMO, nevermind how we even knew to install this ahead of time because vampires aren't real.". There is an entire shift in context involved.

[K0NFL1QT]

has the side benefit of helping against the monsters with mind fuckery, and instead acknowledges that there is a reason you might need to protect the minds of high ranking officials from something that you are not allowed to acknowledge the existence of without metagaming.

 

This is the key reason why Mindshields don't belong on HRP servers; you have to do mental gymnastics to explain them. Loyalty implants are fine though, and can have mindshield capability as a side effect of the implants interference in normal brain function. In fact, more roles should be Loyalty Implanted, like all of Command and every Officer.

[Arrow768]

I do not see advantages of changing loyalty implants to mind shield implants.

As explained by K0nfl1qt, you cant really explain the mindshield implants if you dont acknowledge supernatural powers.

Which would give the Captain and the HoS a free pass to valid them as they have to know that these powers exist otherwise they would not accept the implant.

[Pratepresidenten]

Not a fan of the mind shield implants, I mean, will they still block roundstart antags? They probably wouldnt. LI's are to ensure that you wont go against corporate interests. And being a changeling/vamp, feeding on/killing your employees surely is such. I dont think a mind shield implant would even care about any of that.

And the last time someone suggested LI'd personnel could antag, there was a huge fuss raised that the HoS/Cap is an extremely powerful role that would demolish anything and anyone, ESPECIALLY as an antag.

Loyalty implants are fine as is. You should ahelp shitty rev announcements, and definately ahelp if you can circumvent situational announcements such as torture X or w/e. People already dismiss CC announcements enough already. Even the reasonable ones.

Voting for dismissal.

[LordFowl]

Moving to the policy subforum, as a suggestion such as this is rooted more in politics than development.

[Azande]

I've done some searching based on something I've heard. I'm not open to outright removal of the implant without a replacement of sorts. I am considering the possibility of replacing it with something that removes the "loyalty" aspect.

https://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Implants#Mindshield_Implants

The premise of this implant is it counters mental manipulation. This would permit the concept of game balance when it comes to those vital roles and antags, but in the process removing this "railroaded" aspect people seem to have issues with.

The draft I have in mind is:

• Captain/HoS/IAA start with mind-shield implants instead.

• Armory starts with mind shield implants instead.

• Loyalty implants are kept as a RnD thing and maybe other stuff. I don't know where they all exist at the top of my head.

 

Obviously this isn't an actual proposal just yet, I do want further opinions on this matter. I'm interested on hearing your thoughts, especially those that have contributed so far.

@Azande @JMJ_99 @kyres1 @Arrow768 @Zundy

 

I would like these. People are saying 'why would NanoTrasen have a device specific on the intent of combating mind control?", which is at first fair - BUT NOT ANYMORE.

In our lore and on our chemistry wiki, there are now truth serums and chemicals that make you anti-NanoTrasen, and an implant that effectively combats these would be good to have in certain employees. Additionally, Miranda Trasen herself is a changeling, and she might know about vampires because of this - maybe the creation of mindshield implants came from the top echelon of the company?

I'd also say that the mindshield implant would discourage the implantee from being coerced or bribed to act directly against the company, but allow more leeway in terms of regs and such.

[Snakebittenn]

I'm trying to think through why a small chip can withstand Space Satan.

It's not working.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

 

I would like these. People are saying 'why would NanoTrasen have a device specific on the intent of combating mind control?", which is at first fair - BUT NOT ANYMORE.

In our lore and on our chemistry wiki, there are now truth serums and chemicals that make you anti-NanoTrasen, and an implant that effectively combats these would be good to have in certain employees. Additionally, Miranda Trasen herself is a changeling, and she might know about vampires

 

Allegedly a changeling.

[Kaed]

I would like these. People are saying 'why would NanoTrasen have a device specific on the intent of combating mind control?", which is at first fair - BUT NOT ANYMORE.

In our lore and on our chemistry wiki, there are now truth serums and chemicals that make you anti-NanoTrasen, and an implant that effectively combats these would be good to have in certain employees. Additionally, Miranda Trasen herself is a changeling, and she might know about vampires because of this - maybe the creation of mindshield implants came from the top echelon of the company?

I'd also say that the mindshield implant would discourage the implantee from being coerced or bribed to act directly against the company, but allow more leeway in terms of regs and such.

 

So, I haven't heard anything about 'truth serums' and 'anti nanotrasen chemicals', and if they were in fact added - especially the latter one - then I would personally resist the idea that a random chemical you create makes you for or against a conceptual notion such as a company, that is... that is not how brain chemistry works. There is no... 'Nanotrasen allegiance gland'... in people's brains that you can chemically stimulate with a compound. At least a loyalty implant can be justified as a complex electronic device that interacts with your neurological signals.

And the other half of your argument is pretty much bunk too, because it relies on metaknowledge of something that might as well be a jokey meme at this point. No one knows Miranda Trasen is a ling, and even if she was, being a CEO doesn't mean you can just make mysterious decisions about your company to implant your people with a chip that you can't explain to anyone because it involves reasons tied to you being a space monster. These are just further mental gymnastics trying to justify a mindshield and in the end, they're still reliant on the specific confirmed existence of an antagonist type.

It is literally easier to on people's brains and the stability of the narrative keep loyalty implants the way they are instead of creating these mountains of confusing subversions and executive lies (who created the tech? Not-Miranda pull it out of her butt? How is she explaining distributing it?) for no other reason than it gets rid of loyalty implants because you don't care for them conceptually.

[Azande]

So, I haven't heard anything about 'truth serums' and 'anti nanotrasen chemicals', and if they were in fact added

No one knows Miranda Trasen is a ling,

 

 

Read the wiki before posting. Truth serum, an Anti-NT chemical and Pro-NT chemical were all added and are known recipes to chemists. This means they exist within our universe regardless of your personal objections.

OOCly, we know in a canon event that she revived herself from death - OOCly, we know she's a ling. This means when crafting lore, we can add this into her reasoning for doing certain things.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

So, I haven't heard anything about 'truth serums' and 'anti nanotrasen chemicals', and if they were in fact added

No one knows Miranda Trasen is a ling,

 

 

Read the wiki before posting. Truth serum, an Anti-NT chemical and Pro-NT chemical were all added and are known recipes to chemists. This means they exist within our universe regardless of your personal objections.

OOCly, we know in a canon event that she revived herself from death - OOCly, we know she's a ling. This means when crafting lore, we can add this into her reasoning for doing certain things.

 

A character named and looking like Miranda Trasen did that, yes. Was it really? Probably. Probably not. That is not entirely relevant. We are no playing miranda trasen or an imposter. We have to look at this from a station point of view and work up.

[Azande]

So, I haven't heard anything about 'truth serums' and 'anti nanotrasen chemicals', and if they were in fact added

No one knows Miranda Trasen is a ling,

 

 

Read the wiki before posting. Truth serum, an Anti-NT chemical and Pro-NT chemical were all added and are known recipes to chemists. This means they exist within our universe regardless of your personal objections.

OOCly, we know in a canon event that she revived herself from death - OOCly, we know she's a ling. This means when crafting lore, we can add this into her reasoning for doing certain things.

 

A character named and looking like Miranda Trasen did that, yes. Was it really? Probably. Probably not. That is not entirely relevant. We are no playing miranda trasen or an imposter. We have to look at this from a station point of view and work up.

 

From a station point of view - I'd rather have neither, but Abo is essentially vetoing the 'remove mind controlling implant' as an idea, and is only offering an alternative to keeping the loyalty implant, which I do not approve of - so I'll argue for it how I want.

[Kaed]

From a station point of view - I'd rather have neither, but Abo is essentially vetoing the 'remove mind controlling implant' as an idea, and is only offering an alternative to keeping the loyalty implant, which I do not approve of - so I'll argue for it how I want.

 

As people have repeatedly been telling you this thread, it's not a mind controlling implant. I've said it. Sharp has said it.

Stop treating the LI like it's a character derailing menace and take our advice on reacting appropriately to bad antag announcements instead of arguing for it to be removed.

[JMJ_99]

From a station point of view - I'd rather have neither, but Abo is essentially vetoing the 'remove mind controlling implant' as an idea, and is only offering an alternative to keeping the loyalty implant, which I do not approve of - so I'll argue for it how I want.

 

As people have repeatedly been telling you this thread, it's not a mind controlling implant. I've said it. Sharp has said it.

Stop treating the LI like it's a character derailing menace and take our advice on reacting appropriately to bad antag announcements instead of arguing for it to be removed.

 

And there a people clearly telling you why they dislike the implant.

As much as I'd rather they just go and stay go I'm willing to have a compromise with abos suggestion. You do not need to bullshit up an excuse for Mindshields existance anymore than you do with LIs. Higher ups very clearly understand that the syndicate and vox exist, both employ some form of brainwashing or psionics and truth serum is now a thing. You do not need to tell station command the specific reason they are receiving them, just that they make them more resistant to 'external influence.'

[Kaed]

And there a people clearly telling you why they dislike the implant.

As much as I'd rather they just go and stay go I'm willing to have a compromise with abos suggestion. You do not need to bullshit up an excuse for Mindshields existance anymore than you do with LIs. Higher ups very clearly understand that the syndicate and vox exist, both employ some form of brainwashing or psionics and truth serum is now a thing. You do not need to tell station command the specific reason they are receiving them, just that they make them more resistant to 'external influence.'

 

And yet neither of those groups utilized supernatural means of coercion, which makes the reliable loyalty implant work just as well if not better against them than a 'mindshield' implant, for the simple reason that mindshield implants don't necessarily prevent you from choosing to betray the company of your own free will. A loyalty implant does, and is therefore more conceptually secure.

The primary basis of these arguments are based on a fallacious understanding of the relationship between antagonists pretending to be NT and people with an implant, because people still maintain the assumption that they have to comply with people they think are NT, even if they are clearly not and the things they are being asked to do are senselessly immoral or incredibly illegal. They are not a mindslave implant that forces you to mindlessly comply with NT's totally legitimate announcement that employee executions are now mandatory every 10 minutes. If anything, they would reinforce your idea that NT would never order that, because you love them, and know they would never perform such a horrible action 'for a social experiment, lel'. You're expected to exercise logic and judgement, and you have many resources at hand to help you ranging from admins to the knowledge that emotional strain can overcome the implant.

I understand you don't like it, but loyalty implants frankly just make more sense narrative than mindshield implants and there is no need to remove it and replace it with a weaker narrative device.

Additionally, as a side note. Truth serums, along with a number of other chemicals with bizarre effects that were cited in this thread, were very recently added alongside traumas, and the whole system there is currently up for debate on whether it should be even kept or not. Using very recent, contentious changes to the game as basis for why further changes should be made is not a very sensible path to take.

[MO_oNyMan]

I've done some searching based on something I've heard. I'm not open to outright removal of the implant without a replacement of sorts. I am considering the possibility of replacing it with something that removes the "loyalty" aspect.

https://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Implants#Mindshield_Implants

The premise of this implant is it counters mental manipulation. This would permit the concept of game balance when it comes to those vital roles and antags, but in the process removing this "railroaded" aspect people seem to have issues with.

The draft I have in mind is:

• Captain/HoS/IAA start with mind-shield implants instead.

• Armory starts with mind shield implants instead.

• Loyalty implants are kept as a RnD thing and maybe other stuff. I don't know where they all exist at the top of my head.

 

Obviously this isn't an actual proposal just yet, I do want further opinions on this matter. I'm interested on hearing your thoughts, especially those that have contributed so far.

@Azande @JMJ_99 @kyres1 @Arrow768 @Zundy

 

The concept fixes the current issues most people have with LIs. However when it comes to LIs that are kept in RnD i would suggest nerfing them. Like putting their effect on a timer or making them instate a single command in the mind of the implanted person or make it really obvious the person is "zombified" upon examining. Something like that. And obviously make them illegal (like the truth serum). Turning a person's views 180 degrees off of an implant is a bit of a drastic think imo

[Faris]

I gave the thread longer than I'm required to and reviewed all the discussion and points raised here. I'm going to stick with my dismissal and bin this thread.