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Retain The Head of Personnel's Ancient Claims Over Janitoria


Guest Marlon Phoenix

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/4006

 

The bulk of this PR focuses on moving janitor from the service department where they don't really belong (the remainder of the service department is focused on the production of goods) to the engineering department which makes more sense (as engineering focuses on the maintenance of the station, such as cleaning, restocking vendors, repairing tables/windows and etc.)

This also gives janitors the supplies to do the above mentioned - they start with a vending machine that can in turn dispense its own vendor resuppliers which allow janitors to resupply depleted vending machines. They have been given some basic materials to repair the most commonly seen minor damages (broken windows, broken tables, broken chairs, etc).


Ports back-mounted water tanks from /tg/, which allow janitors to commit heavy duty warcrimes on filth, and also intends to reimplement and refurbish the former janitor pussy wagon as the new and improved deluxe janicart, which is composed of an engine and a janicart trolley. The trolley can have any reagent container put in it and can spread the reagents of that container, typically water for cleaning. It can also hoover up items of w_class 1 or 2, provided they're not anchored. Both of these features can be toggled, and all items hoovered up can be removed simply with a crowbar.



Finally, replaces the old janitor closet with a cryo-bay so people can be lazy and cryo on the main level.

 

This change is nice, but there is a major aspect of it that remains a bad idea. That is moving janitor from service to engineering. This should be reverted.


Engineering do focus on repairs and station maintenance, and this change will give the janitor the tools and skills to do small time repairs to vendors and other minor maintenance aspects. However a janitor answering to the Chief Engineer seems very awkward and redundant. Custodials is an important part of the service department. The Chief Engineer is not really needing to worry about how clean and tidy the station is and ensuring the janitor is mopping up food spills or wiping down windows. That is more of the HoP's lane since they are responsible for the service department. A custodial crew is a service, not an engineering team. Engineers are meant to focus on the big picture and all of their alt-titles reinforce that. The service roles are less sensitive and more based on customer service and generally having the station be a hospitable and friendly place to work. Janitors fit more in the latter than the former.


It is also wrong in implying that the janitor plays no part in the Service department's aspect of supplying goods. Refilling vendors and ensuring vendors are repaired are part of the service department. It would be the HoP that notices vendors are low on supplies and ask the janitor to refill them. I do not think any engineer or Chief Engineer would give a flying crap about empty vendors, so a big part of their new role is ignored by their superior and a head from a now-different department is the one they work with.


While janitors can work in tandem with engineers they have always fit better in the service department. The qualification requirements are extremely low. Making them replace maintenance technicians makes that role redundant and makes the Chief Engineer responsible for ensuring all the windows are being wiped down and the floors are being mopped.

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First they ruin our kitchens with nanakode, now they try to take away our very janitors? This cannot be borne! Janitoria stands with the rest of the glorious civilian department!


In all seriousness, though, [mention]LordFowl[/mention] you seem to have some misunderstandings about station hierarchy. Technically speaking, I wouldn't even really say there is a 'service' department at all. There is certainly a 'supply' department, which covers both raw materials (mining) and fabricated/exotic materiel (cargo). Hence why they all are on the 'supply' channel.


And yes, there is a service channel, it's true. But by no means are the scattered remaining 'civilian' jobs really even a department. It's nice that bay implemented a radio channel for them all to chatter on, so everyone has a private line they can communicate on besides common, but here's the thing: It's so rarely used, and I have to this day never seen any coordination between anyone except the bartender and chef, and even then that's pretty rare. This is because they aren't a cohesive unit. They all have very distinct jobs that are only tenuously related under the 'serve the rest of the crew' banner.


These are the jobs that have the service channel:

-Chef

-Bartender

-Janitor

-Chaplain


Only half of those 'produce goods', as you put it, and the others provide some sort of service, either tangible (cleaning and replacing lights) or esoteric (religious). Beyond that, they're not really in any position to be considered a department with a common goal, and the service channel is pretty much there so their boss, the HoP, can contact them without the common channel. It doesn't make them a unit.


That all being said, I like some of the ideas you have about the janitor, aside from the part about moving them to engineering. Even speaking from the vantage point you bring up that they are there for low level repairs, that doesn't really cover the rest of their job, which involves cleaning messes. Not 'shit's broken' messes, 'someone threw up on the floor' messes.


And no matter how much you try to spin it, 'janitor' just doesn't roll of the tongue as an engineering department job title. The engineering department is full of trained individuals. They are professionals the station depends on for power and maintaining atmosphere, or people trying to be said professionals.


The janitor is a man who walks around with a mop cart and spraybottle, and occasionally fixes noncomplex problems like broken lights. He belongs in the civilian 'department', with the other straggler civilian jobs.


I like the idea of giving him a new room, and of letting him refill vending machines... but if we want vending machines to be refillable, we will have to cut down on the number of vending machines on the station. Right now, there are so many of them that if one is out of something you want, you can take a 30 second walk to the next vending machine, which probably has stuff left. Having like 4 non-departmental (food/drink) vending machines or less per floor, and all of them in public access areas, would greatly encourage the janitor to actually have something to do at times with refill mechanics.


I'd rather like him to be able to get brown boxes with bags of chips or whatever in them, maybe even with a logo in shitty reddish brown ink on the carboard box, like you see everyone refilling vending machines with in real life.

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Agree, in short. Authority wise, I see the janitor position as closer to a hospitality role than a pure maintenance role. They aren't responsible for any critical systems, like Engineering or the Chief Engineer - they're just there to keep the place looking nice, and now, maybe keep the vendors stocked with k'ois bars. Having them fix windows is not even really a custodian's lane, but I like that they can do that too. I just don't see that a CE is required tell them when and where to do that.


As a janitor, I don't want to have to ask things of a CE who is trying to repair a major hull breach or cool down the supermatter core. As a CE, I don't want to have to yell at someone because there's a booger on the floor, when a phoron fire is raging in the pool area. These are silly examples, but hopefully they illustrate some of the weirdness that manifests with this particular change.


The other additions in the PR (Janicart, back-tank, vendor restocks) are fine. It's the authority shuffle (that has no effect on gameplay?) that could use reverting once the post-patch feature review period has passed.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

Making them replace maintenance technicians makes that role redundant [...].

This is simply not true as can be seen here:

https://github.com/LordFowl/Aurora.3/blob/master/code/game/jobs/job/engineering.dm#L72

 

I am not saying it has literally obliterated the role of maintenance technician. Yes, that job still exists. But maintenance technicians were meant for low level, low-intensity maintenance of the station. By shuffling the janitor over to engineering and giving them maintenance duties it makes the maintenance technician a little redundant. At every point where we get to exceptions ("Maintenance technicians can go EVA and repair solars!") we get to an example of it being better for an engineer to do it.


Maintenance technicians are engineer's low intensity job. Janitors subvert that and take away from service. The HoP should be wandering around and whining about messes to the janitor, not the CE. Engineering crew shouldn't be mopping floors. Service crew should be mopping floors.

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To be honest, I dont see a reason why the janitor cant be moved to engineering.


Most companies have a facility management department.

This department is responsible for the upkeep of their facilities.

That includes stuff like mopping down the floors, replacing lightbulbs when they break, refilling vending machines, rearranging / moving offices when needed and even plan expansions of company facilities as well as a shitload of other stuff

(And yes, our emergency generators and UPS are also the responsibility of the facility department, aswell as HVAC and plumbing).

And our facility manager has a (mechanical) engineering degree.


From time to time he borrows me from IT when something needs to be done inhouse (either because its urgent or because we dont want to spend money to have a external company come over and do it for us)

Some of the stuff that I have done for the facility management includes:

 

  • Replacing the steel wires on the garage door.
  • Gaining entry to closets where the keys have been misplaced.
  • Planning the network wiring for a new site.
  • Planning, Testing and Installing 3G/4G amplifiers.
  • Replacing the locks on doors.
  • Replacing the motor on a skylight.
  • Move sockets around / install new sockets

 

Thats all stuff, the facility manager is responsible for, in addition to "mopping down floors and replacing lightblubs"

(I also replaced lightbulbs when the person that normally does it was on vacation)

And almost all of the stuff I listed above requires some sort of engineering knowledge.


Most arguments that have been brought up so far are based on feelings and not facts.

I have yet to see a solid reason why the janitor can not be part of engineering (facility management).


Edit:

I usually dont like to quote wikipedia, but it fits in here pretty well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facility_management#Role_of_the_facilities_manager

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

Because there is a difference between what engineers do and what janitors do.


If we keep the custodial responsibilities to engineering, then that department as a whole gains that responsibility. I can stop any engineer and order them to mop the floors because it's in their department responsibilities. Engineers not cleaning the grime becomes neglect of duty. I am now able and willing to have engineers arrested if I see dirty floors and they refuse to mop it up. If the station has a long round and the floors are all dirty and there's a mess everywhere the Chief Engineer can be arrested and held for neglect of duty charges because it's HIS department's responsibility to keep the place clean. And that makes NO sense. It is FAR more reasonable to conscript the service sector crew to do something so menial than it is to grab the specialized engineers. Janitors are an unspecialized, bottom-barrel duty. It is FAR more reasonable to get on the HoP's case about a messy station because the CE has more important things to worry about.


Medical heals people. They are specialized to do it in specific ways, but the bare minimum is that every medical crew can apply gauze to you. Anyone refusing to even apply gauze is a bad medical player.


Engineering maintains the station. The new bare minimum is mopping the floors. Anyone that does not mop floors is now a bad engineering player.


We shouldn't care what wikipedia says about custodials because this is not a 21st century wal-mart in Phoenix, Arizona. There are a billion different companies that do it a billion different ways. Where I work IRL we have to fix our own equipment if it is a minor problem. I've changed lightbulbs. Changing a lightbulb is not a specialized engineering duty. Refilling a vendor machine isn't a specialized duty. It is only specialized in the sense that specific vendors send their own people to do it, and even these people are randos. Flicking some switches in a breaker box is not a specialized duty. These are literally the barest possible minimum skills.... I do not know why you would ever argue that changing a lightbulb is evidence of someone having an endless grasp of electronics.... Everything a janitor does now is still something random 18 year olds do when hired in grocery stores. A highschool drop out can do everything our janitors do. That was supposed to be by design.


Please don't just dismiss my entire argument by saying the facts are hurting my feefees. You don't have divine, unquestionable facts, you have anecdotal information to support a bizarre breach of internal consistency. I'm not stuttering through tear-streaked mascara about how this is triggering me and I am literally shaking and my hands tremble as I type this, but arguments on the consistency, ethos, and 'lanes' affected by this change.


Even if you branch out to flood this thread with more examples you'll just get weird european regulations and I can throw back exceptions via american companies where our companies usually expect random teenagers pulled off the street to do this stuff.

Edited by Marlon Phoenix
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I don't understand understand why you're fighting so hard about this one specific point that a lot of people are disagreeing with you on. You clearly have a lot of good ideas about buffing the janitor. That's great, they could use a bit of love. Your work isn't invalidated in its entirety by one portion of it meeting resistance. Just give grounds on the thing about engineering janitors and focus on the other stuff that people like.


I know it's a struggle when you feel strongly about something and people don't agree with it. Buy you are doing this for a community, not for your personal gratification (I would think, anyway?), So maybe you should consider being a little bit more open-minded about what the community is saying to you, rather than preparing to die defending your ideological hill.

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If we keep the custodial responsibilities to engineering, then that department as a whole gains that responsibility. I can stop any engineer and order them to mop the floors because it's in their department responsibilities. Engineers not cleaning the grime becomes neglect of duty. I am now able and willing to have engineers arrested if I see dirty floors and they refuse to mop it up. If the station has a long round and the floors are all dirty and there's a mess everywhere the Chief Engineer can be arrested and held for neglect of duty charges because it's HIS department's responsibility to keep the place clean.

 

This argument is absolutely over the top.

Using that same argument I can currently detain the chaplain and the HoP (as well as anyone else in service and cargo, because the HoP is also the head of cargo) for neglect of duty if the floors are dirty.

Doesnt make sense either and it doesnt happen right now.

 

I do not know why you would ever argue that changing a lightbulb is evidence of someone having an endless grasp of electronics.

I never argued that changing a lightbulb requires a "endless grasp of electronics".

I was merely explaining to you the many different tasks that facility management covers, which include tasks that require almost no education such as mopping floors and changing lightblubs and other tasks that require some engineering understanding, but they are all part of the same department.

 

Don't just dismiss my entire argument by saying the facts are hurting my feefees.

Again, I have never said or dismissed your argument, because "it hurt my feelings".


I dismissed it, because you failed to provide reasons that explain why the janitor can not be part of engineering.


You have made various claims:

Custodials is an important part of the service department.

A custodial crew is a service, not an engineering team.

And did not proof them in any way / back them up with proper reasons that are not recursions on itself.


You have even contradicted yourself:

Engineers are meant to focus on the big picture and all of their alt-titles reinforce that.

But maintenance technicians were meant for low level, low-intensity maintenance of the station. By shuffling the janitor over to engineering and giving them maintenance duties it makes the maintenance technician a little redundant.

First you say they focus on the big picture, then you claim that the maint techs are low-intensity jobs and are made somewhat redundant by the janitor.

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I don't understand understand why you're fighting so hard about this one specific point that a lot of people are disagreeing with you on. You clearly have a lot of good ideas about buffing the janitor. That's great, they could use a bit of love. Your work isn't invalidated in its entirety by one portion of it meeting resistance. Just give grounds on the thing about engineering janitors and focus on the other stuff that people like.


I know it's a struggle when you feel strongly about something and people don't agree with it. Buy you are doing this for a community, not for your personal gratification (I would think, anyway?), So maybe you should consider being a little bit more open-minded about what the community is saying to you, rather than preparing to die defending your ideological hill.

 

Kaed, if you look on github, you will notice that I did not write a single line of code for the update.

I was just one of the people who reviewed the technical aspects of it.


It is not my project.


I am arguing for janitorial being part of engineering, because i as a player, want it to be part of engineering and believe that it fits better into engineering than into janitorial.


Its two days after the update. And all I can see so far is the usual post update-revert topic that someone created because he didnt like what he saw after playing a few rounds.

Wait a month or two and then we´ll see if there are actual issues.


So far noone was able to bring up actual issues caused by the change.

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When jackboot came to direct me to this thread, I was under the impression that this was a proposed change. I do not actually hop on the server that frequently. Maybe three or four times a week at most.


So I admit that I was not aware this was already an implemented change, and I probably would have reacted differently if I was aware of that.


However, I really do want to express my irritation that the dev team apparently has evolved from updating the mechanics of the game, too also restructuring the IC departments based on personal preference, apparently without consulting the head of the lore team in any fashion.


This is not a mechanical change. Is a purely aesthetic and in character concept that you are changing, like allowing executions again. If the dev team pushed something like that through, somehow, I woke up one day and signed into the server to find out that you had made that change abruptly, without letting anyone know it was coming, I would be pretty miffed just like I am right now.


It should not be the responsibility of the dev team to make decisions on how the station functions, or the responsibilities of the crew members.

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There probably should have been a feedback topic before the merge.

However it has been merged before this happened.


Since the update is not causing any mechanical or gameplay issues, I do not see a reason for a immediate revert before our standard waiting period has passed.


It should also be noted that most people on github were supportive of the change, which might have been a factor why the missing feedback topic has been overseen.

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Arrow, if a department in an organized group or company oversteps their authority, especially if their entire reason behind it was 'oh, our bad everyone in here was okay with it, so we forgot to ask anyone else if it was okay', you don't just point to the client base and say, they don't care, I don't see the problem. The player base at large is not necessarily an indicator of whether an action that a department took should be okay.


Either the issue in question needs to be resolved, or more clear staff team boundaries and responsibilities need to be stratified prevent future issues. Ideally, both.


Even if you stand by waiting a month for this to be changed or edited, you (this you being the higher in staff team who makes the major decisions) need to make sure this kind of problem doesn't occur in the future.


I realize that this is sort of deviating from the original topic of this thread, and I'm sorry. If you want me to make an entire new thread about revising staff policy for the dev team I can do it. But since I've already gotten my point out here, and the original topic of this thread is largely bunk, I feel like some closing statements are in order.

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I'm chiming in here on Jackboot's side. It doesn't seem reasonable that Nanotrasen would have engineering, a group of people on an airless asteroid tasked with keeping a supermatter engine running and keeping said station generally intact in both a physical and atmospheric manner... mopping floors and wiping windows. When I think "Space Engineers" (because we are in space, this is NOT your common company), I don't think space janitors. Space janitors are a service that cleans floors and occasionally whip out a pineapple wallet and pop depression pills. It should be the janitor you call when your lights burst because you do not have access to lightbulbs. And you're thinking "Engineering has access to lightbulbs". Yes. But do you call up a bank teller every time you want access to your money (because THEY have access to your money) or do you just go to the ATM? Oh, ATM is down? Guess I'd better ask a teller then.


What I see has happened is as follows: the playerbase isn't on GitHub. Hell, the playerbase isn't even on the forums, guys, look around. The only people that care to vote--I mean, post--are people that care strongly one way or another. It's the same reason why the US has such trash turnout rates for its younger voters. Not being informed leads to apathy. It makes it difficult to really gauge where everyone stands. But for now, count another vote in favor of janitorial being a service, not an engineering service.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

I argued on both the small and large scale of the issue because both ends of the spectrum have problems, [mention]Arrow768[/mention] .


Engineering maintains the structural integrity of the station.


Service/civilian maintains the quality of life of the station.


The janitor is the latter, not the former.


The maintenance technician is not a mundane role, I phrased myself wrong. MT's allow someone to play an engineer while not having to know how to set up the engine. I have always had problems with the engine so I play maintenance technician and atmospheric technician because those roles rule out needing engine knowledge. Maintenance technicians are still required to be able to set up solars, repair walls, seal breaches, fix airlocks, etc.


The janitor's 'maintenance' duties are incredibly mundane and within the lane of the service sector. Nothing he does is for the station's integrity, but the comfort and quality of life of its occupants.


To try again to make you emphasize with my argument, imagine that Lohikar one day made a PR that replaced the security briefing room with hydroponics and made the botanists part of the security department, and it passed through the github without much notice from even the head admins or anyone else. So it goes live and suddenly we have botanists in sec growing potatos and being in the security lane. That is the same thing going on here - the transfer is nonsensical within the established duties and general culture of the departments in question, and the change is 'bizarre' enough that it should have been tossed around a little bit more. I am not arguing for policy changes about the Git or demanding I have to vet every update as loremaster.


I made extreme examples to highlight how strange it is for Chief Engineers to be responsible for ensuring the floors are mopped on top of handling station integrity.


The only thing I am arguing for is that the janitor is returned to the service department with the HoP as their supervisor.

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Hi, resident janitor main. I've been a janitor for almost a year and a half irl, and I've been playing janitor faithfully since May/June of last year. There are some misconceptions of Janitors and Custodians.


Janitors handle the basic hospitable service as Jackboot has mentioned, while Custodians typically have custody over their workplace, handling things from minor repairs, cleaning, to sometimes even helping appraise the facility. The two are typically interchangeable, however.


Hence, here's my suggestion on how to appease both sides of this argument, bearing in mind that my opinion on this is based on my own play of playing nothing but janitor, as the fact I have only one character to play, Muhawir Nawfal.


Two slots for each job, two separate jobs under two departments. Custodial Technician for Engineering, Janitor/Cleaner for Service.


Custodial Technician

- Engineering posted, oversaw by the Chief Engineer and a part of the Engineering Staff.

- Requires knowledge in heavy machinery, basic construction/electricalmaybe, and complex devices, due to the equipment it has. Probably deserves something of a pay raise, maybe the same tier as security officers due to the responsibilities of the position.

- Performs basic low-level maintenance such as minor window repairs, broken tables, floor tile repairs, basic light replacements for all departments.

- Performs cleaning on the main hallways and departments, barring supply and the service areas, as it's part of the team that maintains the station, as stated by support for them being part of the maintenance crew.

- Handles operation and maintenance of the crusher itself. Heavy machinery is best left in the hands of the engineering crew.

- Responds to Level Three biohazard incidents, such as massive bloodspills, bacterial residue, and other possible biohazards that fit under these descriptions.

- Retains possession of the Trolley and Engine that look gaudy and terrible, but are mechanically OP as fuck due to the fact you're basically controlling a borg. That shit's terrible looking but tight, yo.

- Retains possession of the basic cleaning supplies, as well as the back mounted sprayer.

- Retains stockpile of wood, metal, plastic, ect.

- Retains possession of the vendor restocking thing.

- Retains elevated janitorial access, the current access of basic departmental.

 

Janitor/Cleaner

- Oversaw by the Head of Personnel, is a part of the Service department due to their nature.

- Requires no major training, can be trained on duties in a matter of days, if not hours.

- Retains assistant-level wages.

- Performs cleaning and upkeep of bathrooms, Service/Supply areas, the majority of which being under the purview of the Head of Personnel.

- Responds to Level Three biohazard clean-up only if authorized by medical staff, due to the sensitivity of the mattery and possible health risks. (IRL I have to quarantine the shit if it happens, for something as small as a blood spill. Nasty stuff.)

- Assists with trash clean-up and cleanliness maintenance of the public thoroughfare, and responds to calls IF NEEDED, either by requirement of lack of Custodial Technicians, or something major.

- Access is lowered to their own closet, requiring entry permission by service and supply personnel or if granted by proper authority.

 

These suggested changes allow those that want to remain as engineering janitors remains, giving them the upgraded equipment and allowing them to handle small level tasks in the absence of a lowly janitor, or ignore them completely like other job positions allow due to it being outside their purview.


It'll allow the HoP to retain possession of a smaller, less skilled janitorial force that can be freely dispensed to its own department, which honestly makes more sense from a gameplay and roleplay stand-point.


These changes would require new job slots to be coded, some access changes, mapping, ect. So it's probably more work than some would care to do, but it's whatever, I suppose.


EDIT: Let me emphasize that my stance on this is out of appreciation for the work done on the code to buff janitors, but my desire to remain part of the service department. The changes done to the position have greatly lowered my desire to play the role, meaning I feel allowing some to take use of the new items and code, while allowing those that would rather play the old style ability to do so is the most sensible and compromising possibility for this discussion.

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Hey there. Loow here.


I'll try and keep this relatively short.


-Janitoria is rightful Head of Personnel clay. The Janitor should answer to the HoP.


-I like the idea of having both janitors and custodians as [mention]Menown[/mention] has mentioned. That sounds closer to what people want of this ... "Custodial Engineer" anyway.

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Guest Marlon Phoenix

That would be great. We could finally give a concrete definition of maintenance technician, letting them do all that stuff and still repair walls etc. As long as the service sector gets janitors.

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It should not be the responsibility of the dev team to make decisions on how the station functions, or the responsibilities of the crew members.

This may come as irrelevant and bit derailing to the subject but as you brought this up. It feels as you're calling out the developer team with coding experiences and knowledge in this that most none of us do not have. Who did you have in mind holds these responsibilities is it then? I can say it is definitely not lore team, Central Command Internal Affairs Agents, nor the people of Aurora. Who controls to what ends?


I will be chiming development team's side. I can see what the developers had envisioned to hope the janitor change the part of the game that many others cannot see why. It is normal for us to fear big changes in our lives. Because of this fear, should we just simply throw out the work that they've done for us? No. They're not Electronic Arts, Konami, or Capcom. They're humans with special feelings. We should at least contemplate and see into how we can work with Janitor as part of the engineering department. Is it too much of a big deal for you to whine about a Janitor that no one pays attention to and no one other than [mention]Menown[/mention] bothers playing. I say that we're not sissies and we can cope the change for a month, and those whom can't are merely impatient and ungrateful people. Eventually, we can see into what the developer team has in stock for us. As for the other hand, Janitors can be considered as not engineers in some work forces. I can tell by reading this thread twice that everyone's view of the janitor/custodian is all they do is mop the floor, fix the lighting, assist people with sanitation, and self antag. It's only a matter of which business a janitor is working in. Where I specifically am, we have a job title of a Janitor who does both work that Menown mentioned in their proposal change.

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I don't see why anyone cares. As Head of Personnel, I've never had to tell a janitor to clean a mess - it's their job to clean messes, telling someone to just do their most basic job is done. Anyone can call out the location of a mess, it absolutely is irrelevant which Head of Staff they fall under because in the end, neither Head will have much to direct them on and the only responsibility shift will be signing for them if they request a transfer or promotion.


This also adds the possibility of janitor characters working up the chain to become a maintenance technician, something I think is cool.

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This may come as irrelevant and bit derailing to the subject but as you brought this up. It feels as you're calling out the developer team with coding experiences and knowledge in this that most none of us do not have. Who did you have in mind holds these responsibilities is it then? I can say it is definitely not lore team, Central Command Internal Affairs Agents, nor the people of Aurora. Who controls to what ends?


I will be chiming development team's side. I can see what the developers had envisioned to hope the janitor change the part of the game that many others cannot see why. It is normal for us to fear big changes in our lives. Because of this fear, should we just simply throw out the work that they've done for us? No. They're not Electronic Arts, Konami, or Capcom. They're humans with special feelings. We should at least contemplate and see into how we can work with Janitor as part of the engineering department. Is it too much of a big deal for you to whine about a Janitor that no one pays attention to and no one other than @Menown bothers playing. I say that we're not sissies and we can cope the change for a month, and those whom can't are merely impatient and ungrateful people. Eventually, we can see into what the developer team has in stock for us. As for the other hand, Janitors can be considered as not engineers in some work forces. I can tell by reading this thread twice that everyone's view of the janitor/custodian is all they do is mop the floor, fix the lighting, assist people with sanitation, and self antag. It's only a matter of which business a janitor is working in. Where I specifically am, we have a job title of a Janitor who does both work that Menown mentioned in their proposal change.

 

As much as I definitely appreciate your tone in calling everyone who is resisting the janitor department change whiny and ungrateful, I feel like you're sort of missing the point of my argument in your rush to defend the dev team from my cruel words. I like the buffs to the janitor, and I like that we now have a main floor cryo chamber finally. The rejection of a single portion of an update does not mean we hate everything the developer team does, nor that we think Lohikar Fowl is some sort of garbage person for changing janitor to engineering.


It is also clearly not 'only menown' that cares about this, or this thread would not exist in as contentious a state as it does right now.


What my point was in the argument there is that it should not be the sole decision of the dev team to decide to restructure the IC responsibilities of people on the station, regardless of what their 'vision' was for the station. Mapping changes, sure. New gear and loadout options, fine.


But when we started adding more authoritative power to the captain, it was not the dev team who made that decision, it was the CCIA people, who make regulatory change decisions. I'm pretty sure unathi did not become unable to drink alcohol/have cactus juice now based on an internal decision by the dev team, and that Jackboot was heavily involved in it. My point is that it is not a mechanical change, and it should have at least been run by the people outside the internal dev team, It's only a knee jerk reaction that you are receiving right now because it game right the heck out of nowhere, with no context or warning to anyone other than the dev team. If it had been made available for public discussion, there would already be some sort of consensus about whether or not it should be done. There would actually be a valid reason then to defend it under the sacred aegis of the holy 1 month grace period.


I don't even necessarily 'demand' you throw aside your '1 month wait' period (though I point out Skull has already said it does not apply in this case, and would like it), so much as try and stratify some kind of clear delineation of responsibilities and authority.

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