Rushodan

Explaining their loyalty implant believably? Same as a visitor hos or captain. It is only active when they are working in command. That is it. It is not required during other times. There is no issue with asking experienced staff to handle specific tasks. There are people in security I would ask for specifically if it was critical to the round who are not even whitelisted for hos. I can name a few, but there isn't any real need. I have never seen an officer with tazer gloves, granted I don't play all the time but I don't think it is an issue. At the end of the day we can bring up plenty of specific examples in every department as to why it wouldn't work in real life, but its better to handle it in a case by case basis rather than putting a blanket ban on something which is a mainly non-issue. This will be my last post on this thread as I don't want to clutter it. -1

It can, does happen in every department - however your reasoning is flawed for the following points: No, they are not stopping a new player from taking that slot. If this rule goes in and the person wants to ready up for a specific slot they will just make a new character for the express role they were locked out of. There is nothing wrong with this. I am unsure how it makes security looks like power-gaming valid-hunters. Perhaps that point could be elaborated on. They may take a lower position for a shift if it is specialized and well perhaps they enjoy doing it? NT won't argue with having someone extremely skilled on the shift taking a lower position for less pay, especially if they have been in that position for years. There are very experienced players who take cadet slots because they enjoy rping as a cadet. Finally a lot of players command characters are the ones they put the most effort into, have the most detailed backstory with and just all in all just enjoy playing the most. Playing as HoS can be exhausting, its hard work a lot of the time trying to deal with a disobedient or inexperienced team and so sometimes people want to step down into easier roles for a break. No harm in this. I run by the two slot rule personally - you get to be your command character and one other role. This could be a CMO and a surgeon, a HoS and a Detective or a CE and an atmos tech. Anything else creeps into the believable character rule. Perhaps this needs to become the standard if people agree it is an issue. @furrycactus also raised some excellent points - I love using my hos to interact with other hos' on shift.

I like the suggestion above, specifically shotgun tazer ammo being ap. It would actually give it a use and leave room for non-lethal escalation.

Okay, had a think about this and I actually thought of a way that it could be interesting, at least from the points raised. Will leave @Marlon Phoenix to give their thoughts on this feedback. Leave security as it is, I personally believe it is in a good spot right now and honestly I really don't want any change, be it nerfs or buffs. I feel if sec was made weaker antags would steamroll them, but if made stronger antags wouldn't have much of a change. This screams good balance. With scouts and a brief discussion brought up with @Nantei they could be useful if they were balanced based around fighting simple mobs and being less effective in terms of fighting crew. Stun weapons such as tasers would not be issued to them and they wouldn't be issued cuffs or anything to restrain either. Due to their expectations to fight off carp and things in zero atmosphere conditions, why not have them issued with specialized KAs. Almost useless on station, not good/useful at all for mining but kicks mean ass in space for carp and cave dweller dispatch. They could be given scout voidsuits, which are pretty much repainted security voidsuits with jetpacks to get around the different z-levels easily. If regulations are broken in space, they could co-ordinate with security to help show them where the perpetrator is and what they were doing but under no means are to attempt the arrest themselves. Why? Because I would place them under the control of the RD/Captain. They are a part of the research department, not security and therefore are not expected to perform security operations. The RD now has two people who they can take away from the station for expeditions, if no expedition does happen they are able to assist research on digs and other operations on the asteroid with dangerous wildlife without adding to the strength of the security force. For expeditions, security could of course issue out a rifle or two to the scouts to deal with the stronger forces faced on the away missions. Why is this a good thing? Scouts now have a purpose without expeditions, if there are no scouts it doesn't harm the overall balance of antags/security and it doesn't affect security's ability to operate un-gimped. For rev rounds, there is now a force which the RD can use to fight a tyrannical security, it would just require a bit of work from the RnD side of things to get them more capable weapons. Finally, if the scouts are traitors in an autotraitor round then security still have voidsuits and the means to chase them down. A lot of people that have traitor ticked on are in the security department, people who play security tend to enjoy conflict. I can't even imagine a round where if the officers are reduced to two, for example and they both get traitor...well who exactly can stop them just ganking the HoS and having access to all sorts of weapons? To wrap this up, changing the suggestion to be like this has the following positives: No extra command member - it isn't required in my opinion. No major balance adjustments. Extra incentive to play RD - the least common head of staff atm. Ease of kicking off an expedition. All the RD would need to do is perhaps get a paramedic on board and get a weapon or two from the armory. Encourage departments to work a little more closely together. No major mapping work - the scouts only really need two lockers in a small prep room, perhaps in some unused corner of research.

I haven't seen this to be the case, but for actual data on that I guess some testing will need to be done against unarmored and armored targets at different ranges. Being shot with any kind of weapon sucks, that is kind of the point.

I don't really understand? At range a burst of laser rifle is going to be far more effective, in fact the carbine even might be with its rapid fire potential. Buckshot has limited range due to spread, is much slower to fire and requires reloading far before both other lethal security options listed. Not to mention if you are an antag with a laser of your own any window is just going to get the shotgun officer destroyed.

Instead of slugs, why not buckshot? It seems to be fairly well balanced and less effective against armored targets while still offering a lethal option for the more fleshy unarmored antags. Its not the turbo doom that slugs are, but it at least gives security an option. In fact it will probably lead to less people using slugs because if you have a box of buck and there is an emergency situation no officer is going to turn down an average shell to wait for slugs to be printed one by one.

Right, I'll respond but I can't quote due to my phone being garbage. There is no current issue with security equipment. If anything I'd ask for a buff because recharging laser rifles is a pain but their abilities to function as station security is in a good spot right now. It literally happened the other day with my captain. We had a vote on a head of security not playing well with command, proceeded to have a command meeting and then they stepped down when asked. If a HoS ignores the captain it's ahelp worthy. The hos a lot of times needs the help of other departments like supply, medical, engineering and even sci. Playing nice is in their best interests. Having extra eyes on the asteroid will be a pain for any antags that arrive on a shuttle. Imagine a heister team that arrives, is spotted by a scout, station goes onto alert before they even step foot inside. It wouldn't be fun for departments outside of sec. Having people with lethals will result in antags being mag dumped the second they do anything - security don't have access to lethals without the armory for this reason. If you want proof that this will happen, look at the detective and his revolver. Many an antag has been fucked up due to that thing. With the baton, just read the thread. What are you supposed to do against someone that has sunglasses and that is actively evading you? What about a gas mask? It was talked about at length in the removal thread but ultimately it is a required bit of kit. I like the suggestion, but as an event round. Not as a change to current security - which is in a good spot imo. The hop having command over security is a big turn off for me as well... a hos is required due to the newer players you get that sometimes enforce regs when they shouldn't be enforced.

Right, I'll preface this with a note that this seems like a really cool idea and clearly a bunch of thought went into it, perhaps even some passion. I can like it from a creative aspect. But parts of it are either totally wrong or wouldn't play out how you think they would. First of all yes - this is literally creating a military / paramilitary force that will make things horrible to deal with as antag. I feel as if it will add to valid hunting, especially with the name given. "But admin.. I'm called a scout. Shouldn't I be hunting for antags...?" Secondly, security has enough slots and variety as it is - the last thing we need is more of a security 'presence' on station. Lastly the head of Security doesn't hold the most power, the captain does. Even then you won't get far without working with your other heads of staff. A good HoS caters to what the other heads need help with and focuses on just keeping the station safe. A power tripping HoS can get voted out, suspended and normally ends up being very disliked. All in all, while some people think that security requires some sort of change it is fine where it is. They aren't too strong, or too weak. They are pretty good where they are and people both enjoy playing as and interacting with the department - at least from what I have been seeing recently. Sure - you get the odd new person that acts like an idiot and can negatively effect a round - but they improve over time and should be ahelped anyway. As a side note, as the recent suggestion to remove the baton found out in SS13 it's actually a required piece of equipment. Moving it to the armoury is a bad idea - it was/is being nerfed already to have less charge and less knockout potential. A huge game breaking -1 from me

I don't really want to whitelist the AI either, would totally agree with being slightly more aggressive with the AI jobbans for AIs that only exist to scan the exterior and valid hunt. Contrary to popular belief security aren't allowed to do this either, so which should station synthetics? That being said, I feel as if a lot of valid points for the AI being...well almost needed have been raised here which I will not repeat for the purpose of keeping this post concise. Furthermore, as someone who plays antag a lot I actually like the challenge of having to stay off cameras if I want to do anything obviously illegal/against station regulations. Like, if I hear the AI making announcements I don't go "Oh look another valid hunting machine that will stop my rp", instead I try to plan around it - take a toolbelt in case I need to open a door that has been locked down etc.

TO: Malik Hejaz, Xenoarchaeologist, NSS Aurora FROM: CCIAAMS, NTCC Odin SUBJECT: RE: Incident Report -------------------- BODY: This is an automated message to inform you that an investigation has now been opened regarding your incident report, and assigned to agent Sasha Reyes (shodan43893). You may be contacted by the CCIAA for an interview, or you may contact them directly if you have any questions. -------------------- DTG: 28-14:46-TAU CETI STANDARD-08-2461 SIGN: CCIAAMS

He turned my character straight. What the fuck. Not happy with this behavior honestly from a previous headmin too.

This is going to be my final input because I don't want to clutter the thread, but I was the CSI. And yes...the reason I stood in the way is because the armed cadet and officer were going to light up an unarmed and nonthreatening guest to the medical bay. I wasn't going to stand by and let some guy get shot to pieces. My hope was that the officers would not open fire....instead they mag dumped me. I kind of wish some action was taken for that, but I can't complain as I did not press the matter.

Hello, I was Sophie Hawkins in both rounds. As per usual. For the first round I can't really comment due to my role not really permitting front line combat, so instead I just recharged a few guns for people. Yes I did see the infamous quote and yes I did witness the aftermath of pure carnage...however I don't really have anything more to add on that one. What I can talk about is the second round, where I was a vamp. Security tried to detain me after I was spotted drinking blood from a blood pack like a juice box and after a bunch of screeching and evading I was eventually tossed into solitary for the station's safety...I guess. Now, here's one nice thing I have to say about Juan/Outboard....when an officer tried to take my PDA and headset due to a full strip, the HoS acknowledged my claim that I am allowed to keep my communication devices and made sure to get them back to me. However.... What I proceeded to witness from the rest of the round was a whole heap of neglect towards prisoners. I ended up hulking out because I was abandoned in solitary, even as I pleaded for help which lead to security gunning me down. I witnessed Fernando sit in processing for 20 minutes, and then serving a 30 minute sentence on top of that when Juan had ordered that the doctor should serve the bare minimum for his charges. I witnessed a man who was practically dying in processing but was not allowed to receive medical care. Medical staff were begging for their CMO back as they couldn't cope, a plea which was for the most part ignored. NOW - while this all looks bad and was pretty ass to deal with, not all of it was the HoS' fault. They did have a pretty unhelpful sec team, no warden and seemed to be getting overwhelmed due to how crazy the round was. Does that excuse what happened? No, but I feel as if it partially explains it. After that I was dead until a captain was brought in to help resolve things, a command meeting was called and both parties were allowed to explain themselves. Juan took their suspension well, honestly, without really contesting it or fighting back.

TO: John Brandy, Sol Consular Officer, NSS Aurora FROM: Sasha Reyes, CCIA, NTCC Odin SUBJECT: RE: Incident Report -------------------- BODY: An Investigation has been conducted regarding the incident, and appropriate action(s) has been taken. The matter is now considered resolved. -------------------- DTG: 25-15:48-TAU CETI STANDARD-08-2461 SIGN: S. Reyes

TO: John Brandy, Sol Consular Officer, NSS Aurora FROM: CCIAAMS, NTCC Odin SUBJECT: RE: Incident Report -------------------- BODY: This is an automated message to inform you that an investigation has now been opened regarding your incident report, and assigned to agent Sasha Reyes (shodan43893). You may be contacted by the CCIAA for an interview, or you may contact them directly if you have any questions. -------------------- DTG: 15-14:46-TAU CETI STANDARD-08-2461 SIGN: CCIAAMS

Tbh you can look at this both ways. Either give everyone basic access to all departments, or give it to nobody. A lot of the times people use the janitor as an excuse to give their department more access, such as security being able to respond faster, emts being able to respond faster, engineers able to respond faster etc. And, honestly, it really isn't required. As an antag the slight delay that someone has getting into a place because access is pretty strict has actually saved my gimmicks a few times, instead of being one tapped by an EMT or sec. I think it is fine as is. Leave the janitor able to rp with the different departments, don't give it to EMTs.

TO: Erwin Slagmiester, Paramedic, NSS Aurora FROM: Sasha Reyes, CCIA, NTCC Odin SUBJECT: RE: Incident Report -------------------- BODY: An Investigation has been conducted regarding the incident, and appropriate action(s) has been taken. The matter is now considered resolved. -------------------- DTG: 18-18:08-TAU CETI STANDARD-07-2461 SIGN: S. Reyes

Here's the thing. And I can make this confidently after watching Lolziam for a good while now. Do they know all the little rules that command learn over months / years of playing? No. Not really. Do they understand when they make a mistake and correct it for next time? Yes, absolutely. Which I think is more important than the first point I raised. I was with CCIA joking about how often the captain was going for EBS and begging for an ERT when it wasn't needed. The next day I see the captain sending proper faxes, not requesting the ERT unless it was actually required and trying to simply serving as a force to help move the round along. Lolziam is a good person, they take criticism well and honestly I feel with experience they will make a great command member. Sure they will make mistakes over time, we all do. However what makes Lolziam shine is that when they make mistakes, they don't lie or try to weasel out of them. They own them and use the situation to perform better for the next situation they get thrown into. That is why I am giving this trial a turbo +1.

TO: Erwin Slagmiester, Paramedic, NSS Aurora FROM: CCIAAMS, NTCC Odin SUBJECT: RE: Incident Report -------------------- BODY: This is an automated message to inform you that an investigation has now been opened regarding your incident report, and assigned to agent Sasha Reyes, (shodan43893). You may be contacted by the CCIAA for an interview, or you may contact them directly if you have any questions. -------------------- DTG: 14-12:41-TAU CETI STANDARD-07-2461 SIGN: CCIAAMS

TO: Oscar Easter, Security Officer, NSS Aurora FROM: Sasha Reyes, CCIA, NTCC Odin SUBJECT: RE: Incident Report -------------------- BODY: An Investigation has been conducted regarding the incident, and appropriate action(s) has been taken. The matter is now considered resolved. -------------------- DTG: 13-15:48-TAU CETI STANDARD-07-2461 SIGN: S. Reyes

TO: Oscar Easter, Security Officer, NSS Aurora FROM: CCIAAMS, NTCC Odin SUBJECT: RE: RE: Incident Report -------------------- BODY: This is an automated message to inform you that the agent assigned to the investigation has been updated to Sasha Reyes (shodan43893). -------------------- DTG: 08-20:28-TAU CETI STANDARD-07-2461 SIGN: CCIAAMS

I admit I am not innocent either, however I did not include the bottom part as it /felt/ directed at me. If I misunderstood then that's on me.

Perhaps we all need a chat about conduct, maybe Arrow shouldn't have made the brainfart comment, but unpopular opinion if you get offended by such a basic remark than thicker skin is required. I don't want the chat to be a safe space where I have to tread on eggshells in case x gets offended. On another note, para isn't innocent either here. I've had para insult me countless times over the years I have known them and the way it happens is typically like this: >Para makes a suggestion >I disagree with the suggestion and give a reason >We go back and forth on what we both think without a lot of progress >Para ends up insulting me and I ask him not to do so before the discussion kinda dies off. Why don't I save logs and make a Staff complaint about Para? Because I don't really care. I might get ticked off but at the end of the day we are reasonable people that can move past these arguments, at least from my side. Heres an example of what I am talking about below, in case anyone wants proof of what was said: Basically implying I am an idiot because apparently I believe that antags shouldn't be able to win.

I never said it was a win button, I said it was a way to close off a round. ERT ideally is normally called when the station security has been decimated and another step of escalation is required to avoid things stagnating into the antag being able to do whatever they like. It's off-station assistance that the antags get plenty of warning about, especially when ERT prep takes ages because Tpr. A wants to get their kit just right. They also come in at the same place every time, the antag is able to plan around this if they think carefully. Using tactics is what the ERT do, being given crappy access and bad weaponry is not suggesting that tactics have to be used, its just making another barrier for...little reason. TCFL can still come with the 33% suggestion I offered, having statistically one out of three responses. In lore it doesn't make much sense either - I can go into detail if why but I am trying to keep this post short.