AmoryBlaine

So your answer to people not wanting to be Dept Sec- which you claim is not hamfisted- is to have everyone fight over a single slot, or sit in the lobby.

Okay, and how many slots are there for each? Because right now you're triumphing a system that's already in place. "Wow, see? If you're set to High for Bartender, and Never to Surgeon- you'll only get Bartender!" That means nothing if there are 4 other people vying for the same slot. Then what do you do?

@geeves Can you elaborate on how this functions?

That is the issue. Citation needed. Does the opposite by further reinforcing department isolationism. "With this change there is an attempt to re-educate the player to focus on departmental staff and adopt the departmental mindset held by every other department. That means you're effectively going to be losing out on interaction with most of the station." And this is not the type of buff Security needs. Again, this is not a good thing. Security should not be a constant presence across the station's departments.

Why not just let people be awake in the Cryo cell. Or make it a Bio-gel cell. Just make them awake so they can see what's going on. Or something, I dunno.

Typically I- as Sec- have to do CPR while waiting for EMTs to arrive. Now, mind you this is also usually after a massive firefight and I'm slowly bleeding out as well. The person is usually on the brink of death, and giving them CPR is keeping the white from engulfing them. I'm also usually on the receiving end and can see the effects CPR give. It's appreciated, and IPCs- one would assume- would be able to optimize bystander CPR more than any human, since IPCs won't be stressing out or getting tired.

We should have tighter controls over rats. Or at the very least make it more clear to people playing the game that rats shouldn't be doing purposely malicious shit. I know a fair few people that just like to play a lil cutie and cause no trouble at all. And this is one instance where it's fairly binary- you're either a piece of shit rat bastard wanting to ruin another player's rounds tearing open boxes and eating food from the kitchen, or you're just there to goof a little bit and stick with a player as their 'pet'- usually ending in you being killed by a piece of shit rat bastard wanting to ruin another player's round because "hurr me see rat, me kill rat". It's the duality of man.

Removing an item that exists for aesthetic only from the cargo list, makes absolutely no sense. Simply outline that balaclavas are not a part of the standard uniform, and only authorized on higher code levels. Also make them all cost the same. They have no armor values IIRC, and cover where a more useful gasmask could be. They shouldn't be expensive.

I agree with Kaed. EDIT: Make it visible still for the rat or something. But I understand wanting the traps not on the floor.

Geeves, the one making the PR, suggested SRBs, and changed his mind. You're acting as though him changing his mind reverts the fact that he was considering it at all. So you acting snarky about it, is just that. You acting snarky. "Heh, you didn't read the PR to check if he implemented what he suggested." Yes, because I'm pointing out how the only reasonable action is to leave your department and return to the current standard of play, because staying in your department is a detriment to your own capacity to interact with personnel. Maybe I'm writing in a manner that doesn't make sense, maybe you're misunderstanding me. Either way there is a failure to communicate the ideas from me to you. Right, instead it's to be inside the Department. And to that I say, "With this change there is an attempt to re-educate the player to focus on departmental staff and adopt the departmental mindset held by every other department. That means you're effectively going to be losing out on interaction with most of the station.", which is a detriment to the overall capacity for one to RP. The other option is to leave your department and do what you currently do- which is patrol, and talk to people when I want to, from where I want to. Yes, less people. A specific Department. Again, "With this change there is an attempt to re-educate the player to focus on departmental staff and adopt the departmental mindset held by every other department. That means you're effectively going to be losing out on interaction with most of the station." Isn't that depending on who your character is? Attempting to use me as some example of how worthless patrolling is for RP is as laughable as thinking that being expected to go wherever on the station under the guise of 'securing' and 'guarding' with no actual objective, isn't an open-ended opportunity to meet new people. When I play Sec, I afk a lot because I know most of the people already. And I don't feel like going through the motions because I have already built up rapport with the character to the point where I don't need to be talking to most people in order to gain their trust. On top of that, I am consistently drowsy throughout the day now, due to my health being poor for whatever reason, so I sometimes fall asleep for a few minutes at a time. On top of that, during the downtime I make room to sprite or write. Prior to Carmichael being solidified, and me not being a sick- physically ill- sick- cool- spriter, I spent nearly every round talking with the Service staff, or hanging out in the Medical lobby talking to people. If I found anything out of maintenance that looked techy, I'd spend awhile with the science staff talking about it, and then let them have it. No exchange of goods required. Engineering- as I already mentioned- was more than happy to let me help them with their generator set-ups back in the day, but mostly these days you don't see them. But even so, let's say my character was a shy bookish man. Does him now occupying a Department somehow increase the likelihood of him interacting with those people, if he doesn't even want to talk to them in the first place? And of players, are the people that AFK just going to start not AFKing now that they get an office to themselves? Facilitating interaction when it is to the detriment of overall inter-departmental relations is foolish- but on top of it being foolish, this does not solve what it sets out to do which is "With this change there is an attempt to re-educate the player to focus on departmental staff and adopt the departmental mindset held by every other department. That means you're effectively going to be losing out on interaction with most of the station.", because as we know, you can leave at any time you want and do what you currently do, or AFK in your own department. It adds nothing new, it facilitates nothing that you cannot strive for currently, without greatly lowering the actual worth of the interaction. I'm never going to support this. Add some offices, people may use them for RP of their own volition. Try to change the dynamic of Security by mechanically setting them as Departmental Officers? Only difference between now and then'll be where people AFK, and Sec not needing to ask to come into your Dept. People who don't interact now, won't interact then. People who do interact now, will be more streamlined since they have a pressure on them given they're assigned to a department- or they'll just do what they do currently and walk around talking to people the right way.

Resi puts it good.

First off, unrelated to this response specifically, you have previously said I did not read the PR and therefor was not worth responding to. Have you read the PR? It doesn't say anything descriptive about the intended changes other than add a bit of context to the photos pictured on it. Had you read what else I said, and understood it, you would know that I mentioned and re-mentioned the fact you can leave the department at any time. So you're effectively ignoring or unaware of every instance of that and the points related to those instances, in order to try and hammer home the idea that I don't know what I'm talking about. How do you not understand that by removing you from freeflow patrolling, and instead placing you within a department, is inherently limiting if you RP? Currently you are not expected to priortize any departments of the station without there being a threat. With this change there is an attempt to re-educate the player to focus on departmental staff and adopt the departmental mindset held by every other department. That means you're effectively going to be losing out on interaction with most of the station. Unless you go on patrols anyways, in which case nothing changes and this idea leads nowhere with the exception of giving security more access to the station. So yes. Ask to go on breaks interact with other departments. But how is that a better alternative to just going to any department you choose currently and saying hello, asking if they need help or want to talk? Why do you so badly need the officer to be a part of that department rather than doing this of his own volition? Do you see how in my post above I managed to list off examples? Why can't you? People will interact with you, regardless of what department you are in if you or them make an attempt to interact with you. Why do you need the status of "one of them" if this is about interdepartmental relations? You aren't really doing anything important for "departmental relations" if your arguement for this change is that if we give Sec IDs that say other Depts, they'll be accepted into the tribes. All that's doing is making them, parts of those departments. A very flimsy response to the apparent hostility towards Security. Why would the answer not be to just interact with others outside of an official capacity? I guess this makes it easier? So the trade for better Sec relations is giving Sec total control of the station, because it's easier than encouraging a Sec culture that interacts with others outside a official capacity. Most people here either don't actually know what the change entails or are making assumptions as to how it will effect them and open to a trial. But that doesn't change that when I said that, it was specifically in regards to the people working on this change. So you misunderstood.

When they're out, moving around it's hard to RP with them. For who? You, as you hide in your department not recognizing the hypocrisy, given you're wanting an officer close to you, rather than you going to meet an officer? When are they in their department? When they're sitting in the lobby, much like Medical? There's no secret stuff going on inside, they're either processing people, training cadets, or AFK standing in the corner. When Officers walk by in the hallways, you are more than capable of saying hello, and striking up conversation. Especially if you've made first contact. Unless they have somewhere to be or don't want to talk to you, they aren't going to leave. You act as though this isn't going to happen once they have an on-paper responsibility to watch their assigned department. You've even said yourself that they can and will leave the departments and essentially do what they do now- but with more access. But they aren't centralized, they're all over the place moving around, patrolling, talking to people. If anything having Security watching every department at all times is implying there is an underlying tension and provides an immediate response to all possible threats. You feel it'll be easier- yes, because it removes any actual sense of it being a task to communicate with others. You want things handed to you on a plate, rather than show the initiative to meet others. You want to lessen the actual weight of interaction by trying to force people to be near each other- but also not forcing them. Just, giving Sec access cards and a reason to be watching you work from inside the department. How about rather than rely on a forced system to introduce you to people, you just say hello to other characters you think are worthwhile saying hello to?

This is a problem. Security does not need this. So what does this change, then? On paper I'm suppose to be responsible for the department? What about in action? You outlined I can leave and do whatever else I wants. And what, I go to the department when things go to shit there? So essentially how it is now, but I don't need to ask for access? It doesn't encourage extra interaction, it detracts from it by removing the middle man of needing to ask or build relations with personnel in order to gain access to a department willingly. Given you're not being incentivized anymore than you currently are to talk to people in your given department, all it does is railroad the process of security gaining access to areas. If you currently are interested in befriending others- you do so. In this update you are interested in befriending others- you do so. Nothing changes but Sec getting a massive buff. What is the assumption being made here if a Dept Officer isn't patrolling the station as he is allowed? That he is inside the department 'interacting' with the staff there? What does that translate to? Standing in the RnD lab talking? Standing in the SM monitoring room talking on the radio? Sitting in the Medical lobby talking to the nurses? Or is it more involved? Moving crates with cargo technicians? Going EVA with Engineering to- watch them set up solars, or make repairs? Maybe cover the EMTs duties? All of this is possible currently. Everything is possible currently. On top of it being the same between changes, the only big difference is currently, it is not based in the fact that you share a department but that you genuinely want to interact with the characters so you go out of your way to seek that interaction. Back before we simplified the shield set up system, I'd help move the generators. Why? Because it helps build interdepartmental relations. What if we still had that, but I was now just spawning in the department? Okay, great. I helped. I didn't go out of my way to do so. I'm already there. I can even hear them on my radio. This lessens the actual influence the action has from the standpoint of interdepartmental relations, and is just more akin to not being an asshole, rather than doing something out of the ordinary. By attempting to force interactions you lessen their actual value otherwise. On top of this, we buff Sec through the roof, by covering every department.

This applies to both characters, Willow Harper and Samara Watson. They have a very high tendency to bombard Security with questions about situations going on and disregarding when Security reports that they are unsure themselves. They do this extremely belligerently over comms and typically cannot be shut down because Security are busy figuring out what is going on. It's extremely annoying to have to deal with. In regards to your Borg characters you have on a number of occasions locked down rooms I have been in when you suspect that the crimes I'm charging someone for are unfounded, or to protect others from Security. Mind you, this is not as AI, or as antagonist. It's just as plain borg. The borgs are also extremely belligerent, just like Harper and Watson, going out of their way to stick their noses in Security business and using whatever authority they have, to try and force their way.

This are really good ideas, sad for the rats, though!

I don't see the problem. RD is already in.

With my limited understanding and experience with them, I would say remove it, please. Every time I hear or see them, it's because whoever it happened to is now blowing up shit while flying around spamming chat or something. But, if Moon thinks they should stay, that works too since they know more.

Because the basis of this is diversifying Security across the departments, not actually giving Security total control of the station by branching out a single Officer to every department. But, of course, Security Officers will likely find it within their interest not to go against the Head of Security since their job goals are more likely to line up, rather than an Officer and a RD, or something. So in all likelihood 'dual' authority will be pushed to the side and Security will follow HoS orders all the time-Code changes or not- because dual authority is a hassle and most Heads of Staff don't interest themselves in what Officers do currently anyways, even when given the opportunity to order them around. This just loops back around to Sec having total control of the station with a breakdown of clear boundaries for operation as Officer.

Adding Dept Sec does nothing to facilitate new RP. All it does is railroad actual RPers into a single department, while not even trying to keep them there- But at the same time keeps them as an outsider since they are never guarenteed to be in that department. The shitters remain the same. They weren't interacting with you now. They aren't interacting with you when you try to make them a part of another department. And no, they aren't going to flock to investigative or warden-- as though that'd be a good thing considering those are all RP heavy roles as well. Like what. Like what that actually has consistent value. This is a massive annoyance for no particular reason outside the arbitrary decision making of a few people. Can you explain why the Security team should take direct orders from Departmental Heads rather the HoS and what the HoS is suppose to do with this change implemented.

Ca you cite some examples that are not specifically related Cargo-Mining?

Bumping. Approaching Dept Sec as an answer to some outdated concept of department tribalism, because there's a mixture of laziness to leave one's own department, or to mistrust Security visiting lobbies, is wrong. If you cannot be assed to leave your department or talk to Sec when they visit, they should not be stuffed into your department to 'interact' with you, when you're the one pushing for an angle based in tribalism. Security, currently, is nomadic in a sense that they are always moving around. Their department is not where they stay, at most they group up there when AFKing or watching cameras. Otherwise they are out moving, or taking up positions across the station. You have more than a few opportunities to RP with Security not directly linked to them going into your department to do their jobs. Where is everyone else? What is their responsibility to facilitate interaction between departments? Why is interaction only on the table when Security is integrated with a departmental sedentary playstyle? In the current system Security are expected to seek out interaction themselves. We have a lot of shitSec, and they don't do this. But of the active officers who do interact with the station what does tying them to departments add? More so, what does tying them to departments but then letting them leave the departments to do whatever anyways add? Does that not just loop back on to the current system of Officers remaining in the halls? The offices that are wanted to be added are symbolic, and you aren't expected to man them- this is always repeated when I point out that this ties Sec to departments, limiting their area coverage. "Lol, you don't need to stay there you can leave." so, again, what changes here other that Sec getting more access, and being railroaded into certain areas? The only real change here is Security gets access to every department, which I disagree with because it no longer requires Security to communicate with Department authorized personnel and have them lead them through. Given the AI stands to be removed, giving Sec the option to go where they please is careless, and if anything an unwanted addition to their arsenal.

Yesterday he rolled TCFL for the first time as "tcfl fleck", broke character after falling a Z level and generally acted as though he had no idea what he was doing. I honestly thought that it was a day one player, with no experience on the server. But it became clear it was Garn- which makes sense- since this is how he plays whenever I encounter him. Even if it's your first time going TCFL, I don't see how that justifies breaking character, not knowing the naming conventions and ghosting because you can't use the most direct route available. All the info you need is on the wiki- something a new player may not know but a Head Admin should. He also fell, and took zero damage making us think he ahealed which he did say he did. He did not, as confirmed to me by someone.

What do you mean by consoles? Because a lot are login locked, which makes sense since it logs the user and that also checks for ID.

Medical doesn't want non-patients clogging the halls, Command is a secure area, they definitely do not want you walking up to the Captain's office that easily. Engineering, man who's walking into their lobby anyways- that's a pointless change because that area's either open by engineering themselves for parties or empty. Science, again, is a secure department. They have blast shields in case they end up creating killer robots, kois, ect. As a Sec main, I don't want immediate access to these areas. I want to ask and get people to lead me around through them. As an station antag I do not want everyone to be able to walk into my department where I'm probably preparing. As an off station antag, I definitely do not want Sec able to get through nearly every department with little issue. Areas are locked for reasons.