[+1 dismissal]Curtailing IPC Authority

[Kaed]

There was a time when IPCs couldn't be any kind of head, and by IC legal standards, heads aren't even really people, they are station property.

There was apparently some kind of antag event or whatever over a year ago that changed that (way too fast, I might add, they just let IPCs be anything they wanted but captain overnight), but it's been long enough that we can reasonably change things again.  Policies change, rewards eventually expire.

Personally, I'd like them to go back to being 'no robot heads', but realistically, the only robot heads that are an actual problem in any sense are robot HoS.  The head of security is an extremely important part of any antagonist round, well equipped and possessing great command authority... and yet for a great deal of different antagonists - cultists, changelings, vampires most wizards - they are all but immune to most of their abilities.  You can't viably subvert them, they're almost impossible to kill without dying first unless you have exactly the right equipment or tools, and most robot HoS's I see do not play as particularly reasonable individuals that you can negotiate with.  I'm sure that there are reasonable ones, but it's still playing the most combat oriented head of staff in what is basically the powergame race.

I'd really super like it if we cut back on that and pulled that privilege, because I feel it is being abused and was never really good for the game in the first place.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I am not going to set a precedent of reversing the results of what are meant to be landmark moments in our server's history.

[Kaed]

It was a bad landmark moment, Jackboot, and it's causing issues.  You can easily create some new lore reason for it, especially since the 'reason' for it was largely an arbitrary OOC contest.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Kaed

[kyres1]

4 minutes ago, Kaed said:

it's causing issues.

details please

[Sytic]

Potentially this is more of a problem with IPC's being "the powergame race" as you described it, and less of a problem with the HoS' themselves or the people playing them.

How would you suggest cutting out the problem at its root, removing the "powergame" from the IPCs as a whole?

[Kaed]

I explained the reasons in my original post why it is causing problems.  IPC HoS's can 1v1 a changeling who has arm blades, for instance, because they are utterly immune to pain, and even if the ling kills them somehow, they can't impersonate them or gain their DNA, negating a large part of the entire purpose of the antagonist.  There's more to making decisions about who should be allowed where than IC political stuff, gameplay progression matters.

Also, talking of lore stuff - it's still utterly inexplicable to me why someone who is not a person in canon, and is treated as property can order around people in departments who, legally speaking, are more qualified than them to lead on account of being people. You jumped the gun straight from 'nonperson who is only useful for serving people' to 'can order people around now lol because they helped out in some event'.  You can break your robot head of staff and not be charged with murder now, and you just kind of gloss over that, stubbornly citing that it was the result of a contest, like it's some sacred compact effective into eternity no matter how little sense it makes.

Where is the conflict here?  You have given these robots authority without giving anything backing it.  They don't even need to get an approval from a real head of staff like certain vaurca do, it was just crammed down the throats of everyone who doesn't play IPC and we're expected to just accept it in canon despite the inherent issues. And now it's just a stagnant decision, old news, that you're refusing to consider changing because it's some kind of 'hallmark' of the server?  You know what would actually cause conflict?  Giving robots a reason to protest their rights being taken away.  There is really nothing oppressing robots right now other than some tagging thing that I don't think I've seen anyone care about for months.

They had their fun in the sun, time for something to happen that makes things get shittier for them.  That's how stuff is supposed to work in arc-based storytelling, people don't just get to live happily ever after forever because some of them did a good once.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Kaed

[Kaed]

5 minutes ago, Sytic said:

Potentially this is more of a problem with IPC's being "the powergame race" as you described it, and less of a problem with the HoS' themselves or the people playing them.

How would you suggest cutting out the problem at its root, removing the "powergame" from the IPCs as a whole?

It's difficult to do this without fundamentally changing how IPCs work.  They don't have a reason why they should feel pain.  I don't think they need to be changed.  I think regulations need to be changed so they are not so easy to abuse.  They're already the strongest race in combat, they don't need to also be given as much authority and toys as they want in combat situations.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Kaed

[DronzTheWolf]

1 hour ago, Kaed said:

You can break your robot head of staff and not be charged with murder now, and you just kind of gloss over that, stubbornly citing that it was the result of a contest, like it's some sacred compact effective into eternity no matter how little sense it makes.

They made a regulation just for this, actually. 

[Kaed]

-- me being salty, have since calmed down --

Edited December 16, 2018 by Kaed

[Kaed]

I just spoke with an IPC player in game, named Hammer Down (another HoS robot), via LOOC.

This is in fact what IPCs seem to believe are  their rights in game.  This doesn't match up with what you are saying, @DronzTheWolf.  Which is the correct answer here?

If they are wrong about this, why has it not been adequately communicated to them?

Additionally, I don't really understand by what means 'this IPC is free' is conveyed to players in game.  It seems to be an entirely player-based RP condition, unable to be determined in game without asking them, according to this conversation

Again, if this is incorrect, why do we have people who are both head of staff and IPC whitelisted saying this?  If the charges are different between 'free' and 'not free' IPCs, there should be some way to tell.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Kaed

[Sytic]

Free IPCs have it on regulations- if they do not, they are AUTOMATICALLY owned by NT as a default. If they claim "But I'm free!" and their regs support it, it's Automacide, as they're a free entity in control of their own actions and would be treated as such (with some specism). Otherwise, it's automatically a lesser charge than automacide, as their regs do not support it and thus they are owned by NT.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Sytic

[Kaed]

On their regulations...?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I talked to the OP. I do agree we need to do 2 things:

1) Have an easy visual cue as to whether an ipc is free or not. Potentially bringing back tags to mark their status as OWNED or FREE. This will make it immediately apparent the status of IPCs and making it clearer for both sides who falls under what regs. This is a firm goal of mine.

2) Discuss a loop to go through such as the vaurca have. This one is no promises as to what form it takes or if it does, but we will see what to do without being too reactionary.

@CakeIsOssim

Edited December 16, 2018 by Marlon Phoenix

[Sytic]

Their documentation, their whatever. Records, I think. I'm tired as balls right now, Kaed.

Identification via tag whether free or not seems smart to me, methinks.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Sytic

[Garnascus]

Being a race other than human is basically meaningless nowadays. There used to be job restrictions to reinforce social tensions. IPC are no different. It is so weird to me we allow toasters to be "free" while working for NT. 

[Kaed]

20 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

Being a race other than human is basically meaningless nowadays. There used to be job restrictions to reinforce social tensions. IPC are no different. It is so weird to me we allow toasters to be "free" while working for NT. 

This is basically the problem I have with the way things have developed.  There's no conflict to being an IPC, they're just reskinned humans that are harder to kill.

Because you've given them all these civil rights treats, IPC players now feel they deserve them, and @Senpai Jackboot is essentially afraid to take anything away because he doesn't want to upset players.  In his own words, paraphrased, "If I were an IPC head and suddenly couldn't be one anymore, Id hate it and stop playing."

It should always have been a temporary gain that later got swept under the rug when it no longer became political expedient, perhaps due to some scandal or attack by robot insurgents turning the public opinion away from them.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Kaed

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

That's not what I said.

[Kaed]

That's why I paraphrased instead of including the entire conversation.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Just now, Senpai Jackboot said:

I talked to the OP. I do agree we need to do 2 things:

1) Have an easy visual cue as to whether an ipc is free or not. Potentially bringing back tags to mark their status as OWNED or FREE. This will make it immediately apparent the status of IPCs and making it clearer for both sides who falls under what regs. This is a firm goal of mine.

2) Discuss a loop to go through such as the vaurca have. This one is no promises as to what form it takes or if it does, but we will see what to do without being too reactionary.

@CakeIsOssim

This is what I said.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Marlon Phoenix

[Kaed]

Oh, you meant earlier in the thread.  Yes, I'm happy about that.  But I'm still able to complain a little to garn about my feelings on things coming to this point!

[Garnascus]

This is what happens when we allow the station to become a liberal stronghold.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Liberals get the meteor pen too!

[BurgerBB]

I feel that this is part of a larger issue where whitelisted minority species are treated as equal as humans. I BARELY see any real racism in game other than over-the-top unga bunga ATLAS racism.

I kind of half-expecting unathi, tajara, and IPCs to be able to get Captain whitelists soon tbh.

[Scheveningen]

3 hours ago, BurgerBB said:

I feel that this is part of a larger issue where whitelisted minority species are treated as equal as humans. I BARELY see any real racism in game other than over-the-top unga bunga ATLAS racism.

You can't really strike a proper medium between those because it's difficult to justify roleplay being a speciesist/anti-robot character. It's the equivalent of being a racist and a Luddite all at once. So most characters are indifferent about it. 

Unsurprisingly, most people do not actually hold any feelings about racism or other races in general for IRL's sake. Idk why we expect people to diverge away from indifference that ends up benefiting progressive attitudes.

[Itanimulli]

This is somewhat infuriating. Why do we let Unathi be HoS? They can't be trusted with their own planet. Why do we let Tajaran's be HoS? They often times have very backwards political views that don't align with modern times.

I don't even see IPC HoS that often. I could understand if it was a complaint over and IPC captain, but this is security.

I also don't think there should be a visual identifier for free/not free. You should have to go to lengths to figure that our for yourself. I'm somewhat surprised that your first justification was changeling, when it seems the entire community is adverse to the roundtype in the first place. If you're exclusively going after the HoS, you need a better strategy. They're loyalty implanted anyhow. You're just setting yourself up for failure.

This is just one more step in the 'IPC bad plz nerf' trend that has thankfully been dying off.

Besides, Centurion is cool as fuck and I really don't see a reason to take that from them.