Clearer policies on DNC situations

[Kaed]

I've noticed that, despite supposedly it being medical and heads decisions to declare someone not to be cloned, pretty much any random officer who finds a dead maybe-criminal may just tell medical not to clone them without consulting anyone.  Is there some standard policy that anyone who is suspected of having committed a crime deserves to be dead?  By what metric is a corpse obligated to remain a corpse on the arbitrary decision of the person who found it or a nearby officer who makes the decision whether they were a criminal?

Sure, I can see someone who was committing violent crimes, attacking and murdering people, and ended up dead, being declared DNC, but why are people who broke open the wrong wall and suffocated or fell down a hole in the vicinity of a secure area also being lumped into this category?  I don't recall seeing any actual guidelines on when someone is to be denied cloning other than 'suicide'.  Have I missed something, or is there some unofficial half-ooc policy that anyone who is a suspected antag can just eat shit if they happened to do a whoopsie and die when committing a non-violent crime?

Edited January 17, 2019 by Kaed

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

A security officer telling medical to not clone someone can be ignored. They have no authority. "They were a terrorist" has zero relevance on the matter. They can ask, but there is no obligation to listen.

[ben10083]

I will need to look into this more, but if I recall somewhere in the wiki it says that people who are dead but pose a threat to the station, or committed suicide, are not permitted to be cloned.

 

Perhaps have it so only the Captain, CMO, and HoS can order a DNC, but if they die and none are present, medical and sec (sec only if they were a security threat) can decide on a temporary DNC until an applicable command staff arrives.

[Doxxmedearly]

As Jackboot said, officers can tell medical not to clone someone until they're blue in the face, but they have zero authority to tell medical what to do. The only possible say security should have is informing medical if a death was a suicide, which could halt it until medical confirms it. 

48 minutes ago, ben10083 said:

I will need to look into this more, but if I recall somewhere in the wiki it says that people who are dead but pose a threat to the station, or committed suicide, are not permitted to be cloned.

 

Perhaps have it so only the Captain, CMO, and HoS can order a DNC, but if they die and none are present, medical and sec (sec only if they were a security threat) can decide on a temporary DNC until an applicable command staff arrives.

I don't feel that the HoS should have that right at all. If someone is a threat, the can be monitored by an officer during the cloning process and then taken into custody/questioning after the proper treatment. There should be paperwork that a CMO/Captain can fill out to document and explain why they're placing a DNC on a body. If it's questionable, they can fax it to central for a ruling. 

Edited January 17, 2019 by Doxxmedearly

[Kaed]

The actual problem her is the process of declining cloning is entirely informal.  It works like this in practice:
 

Officer: Yeah I'm pretty sure they were breaking into the vault and didn't know there was a drop.
Doctor: So DNC?
Officer: Yeah, DNC.

And that's it.  The character is not cloned, there is no investigation.  Hell, the officer in question could actually be an antagonist straight up lying, too.  People are just not aware that there is any process for determining it other than 'that guy said so', because there are no clear guidelines and they just take what someone says at face value, even if they're utterly unqualified to make that decision.  As a doctor, they SHOULD know when and when not they clone someone, but they don't.  

I can tell you if an doctor told a sec officer that the chemist had put acid in the cryo tubes and it was a terrorism charge which was HoT, and the officer had just therefore had just thrown this person into solitary without a headset without a single question, there would be ahelps for days.  Security is expected to know when and how to do their job, but medical appears to be staffed at least partly by who just shrug and do what they're told without question even when it might be illegal, with the same results, someone is taken out of the round.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Kaed

[Doxxmedearly]

Quote

I can tell you if an doctor told a sec officer that the chemist had put acid in the cryo tubes and it was a terrorism charge which was HoT, and the officer had just therefore had just thrown this person into solitary without a headset without a single question, there would be ahelps for days.  Security is expected to know when and how to do their job, but medical appears to be staffed at least partly by who just shrug and do what they're told without question even when it might be illegal, with the same results, someone is taken out of the round.

Then these situations should be ahelped as well. They should know their jobs as much as security is expected to know their own. At the very least, one should know that ISD has no command over what medical does.

I think a wiki clarification regarding making people DNC couldn't hurt, especially to help those who are newer players or newish to medical. There's nothing on there regarding it except for suicide from what I could see looking at the doctor job guide and medical guide. Something along the lines of "Breaking Regulations is not grounds for a DNC, and no department outside of medical cannot demand that a body not be cloned. A CMO or Captain can establish a DNC order with sufficient cause. The person must still be cloned if able, and handed to ISD custody after they are stable." Though worded, you know, better. Not a regulation or directive, but a clarification under cloning guides.

[Kaed]

5 minutes ago, Doxxmedearly said:

Then these situations should be ahelped as well. They should know their jobs as much as security is expected to know their own. At the very least, one should know that ISD has no command over what medical does.

I think a wiki clarification regarding making people DNC couldn't hurt, especially to help those who are newer players or newish to medical. There's nothing on there regarding it except for suicide from what I could see looking at the doctor job guide and medical guide. Something along the lines of "Breaking Regulations is not grounds for a DNC, and no department outside of medical cannot demand that a body not be cloned. A CMO or Captain can establish a DNC order with sufficient cause. The person must still be cloned if able, and handed to ISD custody after they are stable." Though worded, you know, better. Not a regulation or directive, but a clarification under cloning guides.

I made this thread because something similar happened to me, and I DID ahelp, and was just told 'it's an ic issue, the officer and doctor had reason to think you committed a crime'. As long as something is clarified in some official capacity I can point to, I'd be happy.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Kaed

[Doxxmedearly]

Strange ruling, as I didn't think crimes prevented cloning. Maybe I'm mistaken.

[Kaed]

5 minutes ago, Doxxmedearly said:

Strange ruling, as I didn't think crimes prevented cloning. Maybe I'm mistaken.

Counterpoint: There are a lot of cases where admins or mods have opinions that don't actually match up with any stated rules or rather some kind of unwritten rule they are following (i.e. 'don't clone criminals'), so rulings can be really inconsistent when there are vague guidelines.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Kaed

[Resilynn]

Let’s solve this by removing cloning. 

Until we come to our senses and get rid of it, though, DNCs should be a command level decision. HoS included.  Hell, even the HoP if there is no CMO.

 

[Kaed]

28 minutes ago, Resilynn said:

Let’s solve this by removing cloning. 

Until we come to our senses and get rid of it, though, DNCs should be a command level decision. HoS included.  Hell, even the HoP if there is no CMO.

 

That's never going to happen, there would be too much salt.  Also, 'death is cheap' is apparently a fundamental part of the game and can't be changed.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Kaed

[Pratepresidenten]

Ive always thought it was pretty straight forward how this worked.

The CMO has ultimate authority on station when it comes to medical matters, generally above the captain unless the captain feel an absolute need to overrule a decision for whatever reason.

If there is no CMO present, the decision will fall to the captain, and if one is not present, it falls to any of the other heads, prioritizing the HoS if the person was to be charged with a number of murderous and destructive crimes.

Should there be no command, the decision falls on the medical staff with the capability of cloning, if they can at all. Smallfry doctors generally dont want to clone because cloning is some fucked up shit and they dont wanna be held liable should the clone go ballistic.

If you arent any of the roles above, you can shut your mouth in the matter as you literally have no say in the matter of DNCs

[AmoryBlaine]

I don't see why Medical constantly steps on Forensics toes, and vice versa. That needs to be addressed. Security should have like 15 minutes of access to any body after it is found before having to hand it over to Medical, or something. That ensures that the FT can't keep it, nor can Medical immediately tamper with any evidence or resurrect a murderer.

[ben10083]

@AmoryBlaine I understand what you mean, but this doesn't really address the issue presented in this thread, and I recommend making a separate policy suggestion for it if you feel it needs to be addressed.

[AmoryBlaine]

Just now, ben10083 said:

@AmoryBlaine I understand what you mean, but this doesn't really address the issue presented in this thread, and I recommend making a separate policy suggestion for it if you feel it needs to be addressed.

Fair, my mind wandered and I forgot what else I was gonna say LOL

[ShameOnTurtles]

I want to clarify the situation that this was based off. A visitor was breaking into the vault using EVA gear, they broke a reinforced wall and then fell down a hole and died. The paramedic who found them brought them back to medical and described the situation, put it together, and said they should probably be DNC. An officer tracking the vault break in agreed. Medical proceeded to not clone them. They were not following an officer's orders, and I strongly doubt they do this in practice considering the general attitude towards security authority. I could be wrong, but I don't believe a policy revision is necessary.

As a couple people have said, anyone is free to say basically anything, so long as they are not OOCly negligent in their job duties, it is not fair or reasonable for admins to restrict characters to only saying stuff they have the authority to say, for lack of a better phrase. If medical doesn't want to clone someone, as long as they are following OOC rules to do their job to a reasonable degree, it is perfectly valid for them to not clone someone. If a CMO comes into the picture, that perhaps changes, but that's getting a bit too deep into a hypothetical.

 

DNC authority is held by the Captain and CMO. This should be made more clear, considering that it isn't on the wiki for the guide to medicine, station directives, or either the medical doctor/CMO page.

[Doxxmedearly]

Ah, now that clarifies it. Though I don't think reminding other departments that the decision lies with medical is restricting any characters rights to say what they want. They can say what they want and maybe that influences medical's opinion. Maybe not. And while they can make demands, they carry no real weight. This isn't a restriction, it's a reminder.

I do firmly agree that medical should not HAVE to clone anyone if they don't want to and it's reasonable.

The wiki clarification on DNC would be a nice addition, I think.

[Mofo1995]

I have to echo Shame and Doxx that the current status of the actual rules are fine, but they should be added to the proper pages so that the knowledge is more commonly available and easily referenced. I've been in the situation myself before where random officers just DNC me on no authority except the desire to perma remove antags or ambitiously claim accidental deaths were suicides, so I really feel this info needs to get out there. I will ask the wiki maintainer team to do this for us according to Shame's post. We'll go with guide to medicine, MD, and CMO pages. I don't really feel a full station directive is necessary. 

[Alberyk]

Already had a talk with the wiki team and this is being added to the cmo and md pages, and it is present in the cloning guide on the wiki already.