LordFowl Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/6103 This PR has two main components. 1) Females and gender-neutral individuals receive 80% the per-shift wage of male employees. 2) Marginalized species and females are less likely to be selected for certain jobs. This PR is intended to represent a form of prejudice that is implied but never touched upon in the lore, despite the heavy focus on species and national prejudices. To prebake a few arguments: 1) No, this is not a shitpost/joke/meme/dramapost/cry for attention. No, it doesn't matter what reddit thinks. 2) "We play this game to escape from reality". Tell that to the past 20 lore arcs that have painstakingly traced the trade value of the sol credit and its economic impact on the price of grain. Our game is grounded in reality, and uninvasive features such as this that make the game more "realistic" (I prefer more granular/simulated) can't be dismissed on those grounds. 3) "If it's not fun, why bother?" I don't really know why this would be considered unfun. That's something you have to prove. As far as I am concerned, this PR is fairly low-impact and uninvasive. Wages aren't hugely relevant and 80% of 0 is the same as 100% of 0. The mechanics of job selection are so arcane that people already have a plethora of variables to blame. 4) "If it's unimpactful, why bother?" Why not? Furthermore, the second chunk of the PR was created after the first chunk. I am considering canning the first chunk in favor of focusing on the second (ie instead of outright reducing wages imply that the wage gap exists because marginalized groups are less likely to be hired to high ranking positions consistently) Edited March 2, 2019 by LordFowl Link to comment
Zelmana Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 23 minutes ago, LordFowl said: Our game is grounded in reality Ah, thank god you came to this conclusion. I think this is a bad update and will do absolutely nothing but start drama, and is pushing political shit for 4noraisin. 26 minutes ago, LordFowl said: uninvasive features such as this that make the game more "realistic" (I prefer more granular/simulated) can't be dismissed on those grounds. I don't like this opinion. I don't like this opinion being held by a developer. I think that your suggested updates should be dismiss-able upon any arbitrary reason we come up with, if we come to a disagreement as a community. Link to comment
Scheveningen Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) It will be discounted either way. It's not how dismissals work. Anyway, to put it out there, I support this pr for the following reason as stated already by Skull: This is not a RP universe where equality and fairness is the central virtue. Real life today has systemic sexism problems in practically every country in the world, and no amount of laws or affirmative action attempts have healed the divide between the sexes. If it's been roughly several thousand years humanity's been on this earth, what makes anyone think that 450 more years into the future that sexism will be far less existent? Literally look at the entire Unathi lore. It massively characterizes Unathi males as extremely patriarchal and oppressive towards those of the female disposition, to the point where Unathi females literally need a caretaker by law to be able to go outside. We're already hitting the major stops of themes of sexism. It doesn't matter that a woman is the figurehead of NanoTrasen either. A TV show character puts this best: https://youtu.be/xTd3Bry-ZT4 Edited March 2, 2019 by Scheveningen Link to comment
BurgerBB Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 Even if you don't agree that the gender wage gap exists, having one in a Ultra-Capitalist Universe would be interesting and create conflict. The lore is seriously lacking any conflict that would make sense in this universe. Everyone acts so liberal and it's irritating. Link to comment
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 This does not reflect the conflicts and issues present in humanity. Link to comment
Zelmana Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, BurgerBB said: Even if you don't agree that the gender wage gap exists, having one in a Ultra-Capitalist Universe would be interesting and create conflict. The lore is seriously lacking any conflict that would make sense in this universe. Everyone acts so liberal and it's irritating. One would wonder why everyone acts so liberal to the point of irritation. Link to comment
Zelmana Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 Furthermore, does Nanotrasen give a shit? Do you think they are paying people based on gender or based by the singular thing they want as a morally-grey Corporation; results / merits? Link to comment
Scheveningen Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 >Lii'dra have abducted colonists from the Frontier worlds and openly skirmished Elyran territory, committing mass bio-terrorism >Admiral Frost by himself goes out of his way to rescue Frontier refugees disaffected by the impoverished lifestyle of living independent from government, all the while exposing the previous Sol Alliance government for not being as humanitarian as Frost >Homosexuals are persecuted and classified as sex offenders day-by-day on Adhomai, forced to work in concentration camps to 'indoctrinate the gay' out of them >Concepts of gender equality, synthetic rights and religious freedoms are non-existent in the Hegemony >NanoTrasen literally pays humans and Skrell more than the other species (including 'free' IPCs), and outright bars non-human or non-skrell Captains, and restricts other head of staff types And yet introducing a gender-based pay disparity is 'too political.' Amusing. Link to comment
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 Sure, fine. We will lean in on it. We will arrange protests and sit ins and strikes and bombard you with news about it. Full saturation until youre sick of it. Link to comment
BurgerBB Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Zelmana said: One would wonder why everyone acts so liberal to the point of irritation. Because there is no lore to say otherwise, and most people here either don't know how to play proper racists/sexists or are too scared to. Jackboot even chimed in and said that in lore men are equal to women in pay. Look at how many "Lesbian" Unathi there are, including Marwani's character. Out of all the Unathi I encountered, only one actually displayed sexism. All unathi players are filled with nice guys and I hate it. The only time I get occasional racism/sexism is when I play diona, and it's usually just calling me a cool tree guy. I can't believe I'm saying this put people are only capable of microaggressions and it's hilarious and sad at the same time. Edited March 2, 2019 by BurgerBB Link to comment
Zelmana Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 Just now, Scheveningen said: >Lii'dra have abducted colonists from the Frontier worlds and openly skirmished Elyran territory, committing mass bio-terrorism >Admiral Frost by himself goes out of his way to rescue Frontier refugees disaffected by the impoverished lifestyle of living independent from government, all the while exposing the previous Sol Alliance government for not being as humanitarian as Frost >Homosexuals are persecuted and classified as sex offenders day-by-day on Adhomai, forced to work in concentration camps to 'indoctrinate the gay' out of them >Concepts of gender equality, synthetic rights and religious freedoms are non-existent in the Hegemony >NanoTrasen literally pays humans and Skrell more than the other species (including 'free' IPCs), and outright bars non-human or non-skrell Captains, and restricts other head of staff types And yet introducing a gender-based pay disparity is 'too political.' Amusing. All of those things above happen for legitimate reasons politically. This one literally makes zero sense to occur. Merit and risk based pay would be the only logical option for NT. Human and Skrell are paid more because they're smarter (skrell) or a result of the humanitarian viewpoint that has legitimate reasons as explained by lore. Link to comment
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) We will renew the union impact on the aurora and make this another aspect of their demands. We can run with this for a full month. Maybe a year, too. Full support here, given the desire to see more contemporary social issues reflected on the station. Im sure there is the desire from the coder to see this type of divisive arguments and debates, for the fun of it. Edited March 2, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix Link to comment
Scheveningen Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Zelmana said: This one literally makes zero sense to occur. Why wouldn't it? Women get paid time off on maternity leave. Companies nowadays can choose to not hire a woman on the basis of being concerned of whether or not the individual will be able to make it into work if she gets pregnant (i.e., if she is married). Maternity leave is one of the largest reasons why there's such a pay disparity IRL for women compared to that of men. Edited March 2, 2019 by Scheveningen Link to comment
Resilynn Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 14 minutes ago, Scheveningen said: . Real life today has systemic sexism problems in practically every country in the world, and no amount of laws or affirmative action attempts have healed the divide between the sexes. If it's been roughly several thousand years humanity's been on this earth, what makes anyone think that 450 more years into the future that sexism will be far less existent? Are you aware of the progress women have fought for over the last 100 years, at all? Just throwing that out there. Link to comment
AmoryBlaine Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 Just now, Senpai Jackboot said: We will renew the union impact on the aurora and make this another aspect of their demands. We can run with this for a full month. Maybe a year, too. Full support here, given the desire to see more contemporary social issues reflected on the station. I can support the wage gap update, if you do that. That's a perfect basis for unionizing, ect. Link to comment
Zelmana Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 1 minute ago, BurgerBB said: -snip- Look at how many "Lesbian" Unathi there are, including Marwani's character. Out of all the Unathi I encountered, only one actually displayed sexism. All unathi players are filled with nice guys and I hate it. -snip- (Read in Ben Shapiro Voice:) I would think that the above quoted and overall liberalism present on station would be a result of self insert, not a result of "nice guy" syndrome. Link to comment
Scheveningen Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Resilynn said: Are you aware of the progress women have fought for over the last 100 years, at all? Just throwing that out there. And yet every professional I know on the subject of women's rights says it is still not enough. Pink tax, gender pay disparity, sexual harassment, sexual objectification by the media, inter-sectional issues of race and sex, under-representation in government, under-representation in the executive suite, under-representation in the news media, under-representation in the tech sector. Women are far more likely to shoulder household burden as a working mother than a working father would. Of the 800,000 people trafficked across international borders every year, 80% of those are women. Female soldiers face sexual harassment and threats of sexual assault every day. Women in general face greater risk of domestic violence and sexual assault, young women face inequality in high school sports. Retired women are twice as likely to face poverty than retired men. Women of all ages are also more likely than men to live below the poverty line. There's no such thing as coincidence. If something is the way it is, something happened to make it that way. Sources:https://www.marieclaire.com/culture/a13816/things-that-cost-more-for-women/http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/04/09/gender-pay-gap-facts/https://www.elle.com/culture/career-politics/news/a29539/black-women-equal-pay-day/http://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/leadership-and-political-participation/facts-and-figureshttps://www.businessinsider.com/why-women-arent-getting-more-c-suite-jobs-2014-9#ixzz3jqzI7m2khttps://www.cnet.com/g00/news/women-in-tech-the-numbers-dont-add-up/?i10c.ua=1&i10c.encReferrer=&i10c.dv=19http://business.time.com/2012/06/28/more-women-are-in-the-workforce-so-why-are-we-still-doing-so-many-chores/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3651545/https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/07/us/reports-of-military-sexual-assault-rise-sharply.html?_r=0https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/06/girls-high-school-sports-inequality/396782/https://money.cnn.com/2014/05/13/retirement/retirement-women/http://www.un.org/womenwatch/directory/women_and_poverty_3001.htm Edited March 2, 2019 by Scheveningen Link to comment
LordFowl Posted March 2, 2019 Author Share Posted March 2, 2019 The feedback thread is for feedback regarding the PR. If you think the PR author's motivations are purposefully malicious, I encourage you to express that idea in the appropriate channels, aka a staff/player complaint. A feedback thread assumes that a PR is being made with benign motivations. Link to comment
Zelmana Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 This sets us up for a retarded slippery slope if the NBT pulls through with persistent economy. unga bunga bad PR no like this or NBT Link to comment
zyymurgy Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 My only real true point of contention here is that I've been strongly, frequently told that things from the modern timeline aren't welcome in the fictional futureverse timeline. If there's still a gender based wage gap among mankind in 400 years, I'll be one pissed off noncorporeal long-dead entity. Rather than have it be on the nose and gender based among everyone, why not try and be more nuanced about which cultures would realistically restrict pay to which members? Unathi would certainly uphold a gender based wage gap, but I get the feeling that humans wouldn't, and probably Tajara would base it more on the whole "stoopid Zhans" thing, etc. So it feels a little bit out of the blue to apply it to all species across the board. Is it intended to be, in lore, a new NT policy for all species? Who put it in place and why? Is it being retconned in to have always been like that? Is this a Tau Ceti thing where the whole of the space is like this? Or is it more of an unspoken thing among NT employees that people are only really going to discover when they start discussing their wages among one another, which never happens, because money is functionally meaningless? Are we gonna get better ways of managing money and having a persistent economy? Because there's no true incentive for departments to sell things and build up their accounts even in the Civ wing. Supply starts with a large account and it's kind of a hassle to get people to pay for their orders, and if mining does their job you have an astronomical amount like 45 minutes into a round. And the chef starts with essentially everything they need to feed the whole crew, buying more ingredients is a pittance and a hassle, and the EFTPOS is a son of a bitch to mess with if you don't have someone to properly set it up for you. So like, I feel anything to do with the money and economics side of the code needs more love first before we start doing stuff like this. However, with a critical eye to how it would be possible to play with this, and with regard to the job selection part of it... I could see it. A Skrell and Human focused research station could realistically favor certain types of person for certain jobs and get away with it. They could easily aggressively negotiate on salaries to pressure certain types to accept low wages during the hiring process. But the previous arguments still stand that gender perception among these cultures needs to be more clearly defined -- are Humans and Skrell sexist as fuck, and if so, why is everyone so polite, etc. Xenophobia seems like a much stronger motivation than sexism in a futuristic setting, to this dumbass. I've been hassled for my species as a feminine Unathi player more than my perceived gender. Most of the sexism I encounter is benign "milady" type stuff when I do see any kind of real reaction to being a grill. The liberal atmosphere of the station may not reflect the policies of the company, which could be an interesting point of contention. A policy like this could be an excuse for traitorous action and revolutionary thinking among characters who fundamentally disagree with that kind of thing... and characters who openly support it, too. So like... an official policy based on gender perception doesn't make a lot of sense, but an unspoken hiring practice where certain types of person are just offerred less money and encouraged to take lower amounts, and not considered for certain types of job as much, just in general? Makes perfect sense for a self-serving, kind of evil corporation. Link to comment
Conspiir Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 Hello, I'd like to bring up four points here if I may. 1. In the past 100 years, women in America have managed to gain a hell of a lot of rights. Too many for me to want to research when I should be writing my essay, so I'll leave it there. There are more women serving in government than ever before. If in 400 years, women cannot manage to get equal pay, I will eat my own shit. I will actually, physically, in whatever afterlife may or may not exist, as a corpse, eat my own shit. Keep a record of this. When we meet in party-on hell zombieland, you can show this to me and I will keep my word. 2. Humans don't exactly have this issue right now. ATLAS is all "Humans first", but... it sounds like this is becoming "Humans first, but not women they aren't human lmao". Humans are becoming more accepting. That's what happens with time, people. It's a natural progression. When humanity meets aliens, you can bet they'll all think "Damn, we better shape up. We're all in this together." To further push this, the first aliens they met were Skrell, which... 3. Skrell have no gender distinction. Nothing. All Skrell are equal and you are "better" by being better. You can be an egg layer or you can be a sperm donor and it doesn't matter. So why is a wage gap being applied to a species that has no distinction? And why would they accept something like that? Zyymurgy's got the better idea here. Apply it to species that it makes sense to, because... 4. You make a distinction for "neuter", on top of any existing species, loyalty, etc. alterations. Thiiiiis… doesn't make sense. Species that are neuter are all neuter. Reducing pay for neuters is just doubling-down on the species wage gap. You get a reduction for being a Vaurca, and then you get a further reduction for being neuter. ???????? You get TWO reductions for being what you are. ??????????? If you want to lower the amount Vaurca and Dionae get even further, do it by their species. Okay, points I wanted to make have been dumped in for now, and I appreciate anyone taking the time to consider them. Link to comment
Resilynn Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 32 minutes ago, Scheveningen said: And yet every professional I know on the subject of women's rights says it is still not enough. Pink tax, gender pay disparity, sexual harassment, sexual objectification by the media, inter-sectional issues of race and sex, under-representation in government, under-representation in the executive suite, under-representation in the news media, under-representation in the tech sector. Women are far more likely to shoulder household burden as a working mother than a working father would. Of the 800,000 people trafficked across international borders every year, 80% of those are women. Female soldiers face sexual harassment and threats of sexual assault every day. Women in general face greater risk of domestic violence and sexual assault, young women face inequality in high school sports. Retired women are twice as likely to face poverty than retired men. Women of all ages are also more likely than men to live below the poverty line. Yes. But the enduring presence of issues does not mean there has not been tremendous progress. Keep explaining sexism to me, though, I LOVE it. Link to comment
KingOfThePing Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 I will refrain from saying what I think about this, except that this is unnessecary. But no one will care, no matter how many people will argue against this PR and it will be implented anyway, so whatever. Link to comment
Zelmana Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 Are we going to invalidate the valid opinion of this fucking up persistent economy? I would appreciate some valid discussion instead of people on Discord complaining that all of my opinions as an individual are invalidated because I used language that people do not like. Thus far a lot of negative feedback has been thrown out on the basis of "this is immature, ad hominem, invalid because it uses bad word, or is a GOT'CHA moment" (not an actual quote). Got'cha! No but please really would someone who disagrees with my point on this messing up persistent economy respond? Link to comment
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