Wage Gap

[LordFowl]

Considering persistent economy does not currently exist, I don't see how it can mess up anything. If this is implemented it will be considered as we implement persistent economy. I don't foresee it as a particularly obstructive issue.

[Scheveningen]

Just now, Zelmana said:

Are we going to invalidate the valid opinion of this fucking up persistent economy? I would appreciate some valid discussion instead of people on Discord complaining that all of my opinions as an individual are invalidated because I used language that people do not like. Thus far a lot of negative feedback has been thrown out on the basis of "this is immature, ad hominem, invalid because it uses bad word, or is a GOT'CHA moment" (not an actual quote).

 

Got'cha!

No but please really would someone who disagrees with my point on this messing up persistent economy respond?

Females will earn 20% less paycheck-to-paycheck, as already stated in the PR. 

 

22 minutes ago, Resilynn said:

Yes.

But the enduring presence of issues does not mean there has not been tremendous progress.

Keep explaining sexism to me, though, I LOVE it.

This is an extremely dystopic universe. The entire humanity timeline is about various economic depressions, war, a bureaucracy of the Alliance stretched too thin that it broke off and splintered into various other nations that met other factions and species with their own problems of equality.

Tau Ceti may be a 'liberal stronghold' but it is far from being a utopia. It is an independent nation with constant amounts of pressure being levied against it by the adjacent Alliance politics and the only thing supporting it is the NanoTrasen corporation choosing it as its main headquarters.

Sexism and inequality are eternal issues that humanity will fight throughout the ages. There's no established background for any civil rights groups within human history lore to explain why people have this concept that men are socially equal to women. I highly doubt the stigma about women will suddenly go away in 400 years. "We've made so much progress in 100 years" is a result of post-World War ideology pushing for human rights but doesn't reasonably indicate that it would SMASH SEXISM 400 years later, especially considering the swathe of economic and social depressive conditions listed in the Timeline of Humanity.

The tremendous progress we've had the past 100 years doesn't mean all of humanity destroys sexist establishment in the next 400. Lots of things can happen to stop progress.

[Zelmana]

1 minute ago, Scheveningen said:

Females will earn 20% less paycheck-to-paycheck, as already stated in the PR. 

 

This is an extremely dystopic universe. The entire humanity timeline is about various economic depressions, war, a bureaucracy of the Alliance stretched too thin that it broke off and splintered into various other nations that met other factions and species with their own problems of equality.

Tau Ceti may be a 'liberal stronghold' but it is far from being a utopia. It is an independent nation with constant amounts of pressure being levied against it by the adjacent Alliance politics and the only thing supporting it is the NanoTrasen corporation choosing it as its main headquarters.

Sexism and inequality are eternal issues that humanity will fight throughout the ages. There's no established background for any civil rights groups within human history lore to explain why people have this concept that men are socially equal to women. I highly doubt the stigma about women will suddenly go away in 400 years. "We've made so much progress in 100 years" is a result of post-World War ideology pushing for human rights but doesn't reasonably indicate that it would SMASH SEXISM 400 years later, especially considering the swathe of economic and social depressive conditions listed in the Timeline of Humanity.

The tremendous progress we've had the past 100 years doesn't mean all of humanity destroys sexist establishment in the next 400. Lots of things can happen to stop progress.

An extremely profit-driven dystopic future would hire and pay 100% on merit alone. To infer that we are more than just numbers that are talent managed in a Corporate environment is ill-founded. Gender is out the window. Race would be a factor because in game race determines intellect, work, risk, and other factors. Gender doesn't make any sense. NT wouldn't give a shit about what's between someone's legs, they would care about their ROI and the risks involved in that ROI. Gender is not one of those risks.

[Scheveningen]

1 minute ago, Zelmana said:

An extremely profit-driven dystopic future would hire and pay 100% on merit alone.

Uh, are you sure?

[Zelmana]

Just now, Scheveningen said:

Uh, are you sure?

Yes because there is no economic incentive to do otherwise. If you can't do your job, or if someone else can do your job cheaper, you are replaced or do not have said job. It does not make economic sense for NT to have positions in which pay is determined via arbitrary variables; i.e. Gender.

[Zelmana]

That memey response "If women get paid less to do the same job" would be 100% applicable in a dystopian future that cares about nothing other than the bottomline / roi.

[Scheveningen]

3 minutes ago, Zelmana said:

Yes because there is no economic incentive to do otherwise.

I would think there's a lot of economic incentive to withhold a percentage of someone's pay. Such as taxes. Taking money out of a paycheck for any damages they incurred on the job. A lack of seniority. So on.

 

3 minutes ago, Zelmana said:

It does not make economic sense for NT to have positions in which pay is determined via arbitrary variables; i.e. Gender.

If you with-hold 50 cents from someone's paycheck every week, by the end of the month the company will have saved $2.00 in not paying that person (assuming a month has 4 weeks perfectly). Multiply this by 12, you save $24 a year for one person who works at the company by not paying them 50 cents more a week.

Corporations get away with this shit all the time.

Edited March 2, 2019 by Scheveningen

[Resilynn]

12 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

The tremendous progress we've had the past 100 years doesn't mean all of humanity destroys sexist establishment in the next 400. Lots of things can happen to stop progress.

Point to the exact moment in the lore that would have established this.

[Scheveningen]

Just now, Resilynn said:

Point to the exact moment in the lore that would have established this.

Point to the exact moment in lore that humanity instantly destroys gender discrimination.

[Resilynn]

1 minute ago, Scheveningen said:

Point to the exact moment in lore that humanity instantly destroys gender discrimination.

We've already established that the current trend is towards gender equality.  What disrupts that trend?

Edited March 2, 2019 by Resilynn

[Scheveningen]

35 minutes ago, Resilynn said:

We've already established that the current trend is towards gender equality.  What disrupts that trend?

That is not true, and this is a pressing issue in the states right now because gender equality has stalled in the US recently. https://news.stanford.edu/2018/03/16/gender-equality-stalls-u-s-stanford-report-finds/

[KingOfThePing]

United States =/= the literal rest of the (civilized) World

[BurgerBB]

1 hour ago, Resilynn said:

We've already established that the current trend is towards gender equality.  What disrupts that trend?

Politics is never a linear trend. It goes up and down depending on the current people in charge. In the United States, it's been a jagged line, in places like Russia and China, it's downhill in human rights. Last time I checked, Sol Common mostly consists of Mandarin.

It's well established in mechanics and in lore that corporations pretty much have the same power as government entities due to lobbying and other memes. In law, it is illegal to put someone to the death however it's completely legal to make them a robotic slave to serve a corporation. It's legal for a corporation to imprison people if they break a government's laws. It's legal for corporations to pay species less credits than their human counterparts. It's legal to use mind control to prevent your employees from going against your company.

But for some fucking reason there is uproar over a gender pay gap because it's too political.

 

 

 

[Scheveningen]

Sure let's talk about the whole world too.

Did you know that while the average woman will earn 78 cents to the average man's dollar in the United States, globally this extends to women only earning on average 50 cents to the man's dollar.

Assuming we make progress at all, at the current rate, closing the pay gap will take another 170 years. http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2016/

Abortion rights are terrible globally. 8-18% of maternal deaths are due to unsafe abortion: https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-worldwide
And roughly 22,500 to 44,000 women died in 2014 due to abortion-related deaths. There are still six countries in the world that do not permit abortion under any circumstances.

There is no nation in the world that has a gender parity score of 100%. http://projects.two-n.com/world-gender/

Globally, 214 million women still can't get hold of modern contraception. https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2017/greater-investments-needed-meet-womens-sexual-and-reproductive-health-needs
Satisfying the current unmet need for contraception this year could prevent 67 million unintended pregnancies per year.

Women also don't have work-life balance. At all. http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/work-life-balance/

If women and men were to share unpaid tasks equally, women would gain 5 hours of free time per week.

This is hardly an exhaustive list either. Women's rights across the world are not as good as people say it is. It's really bad right now. Deny the data and facts all you like. Trends sweep up and down, and the current era points to a stall right now. Empowerment of women isn't doing enough for them because they still are not getting the same advantages men on average would benefit from.

You can literally draw comparisons from this to what the in-game species currently experience in lore. You think there won't be women below the poverty line in 2461? Is it suddenly sexist to recognize that women are facing the worst kind of oppressiveness in terms of reality and implement it as still an existing problem within the game universe? Is it too 'immersion-breaking' to try and incorporate that an entire group of people can suffer from a load of disparate tragedies thanks to societal conditions allowing them to disaffect people, women most of all?

I say we implement this, because it is very surprising how some of you outright gloss over the existing problems in real life thinking you can escape the facts of reality forever. It is time to get woke.

Edited March 2, 2019 by Scheveningen

[Scheveningen]

13 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

Politics is never a linear trend. It goes up and down depending on the current people in charge. In the United States, it's been a jagged line, in places like Russia and China, it's downhill in human rights. Last time I checked, Sol Common mostly consists of Mandarin.

It's well established in mechanics and in lore that corporations pretty much have the same power as government entities due to lobbying and other memes. In law, it is illegal to put someone to the death however it's completely legal to make them a robotic slave to serve a corporation. It's legal for a corporation to imprison people if they break a government's laws. It's legal for corporations to pay species less credits than their human counterparts. It's legal to use mind control to prevent your employees from going against your company.

But for some fucking reason there is uproar over a gender pay gap because it's too political.

 

 

 

Literally everything burger said couldn't have been said by me better. Gosh, talking about social issues is just crazy.

[KingOfThePing]

24 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

stuff, that's not wrong, but

 

Quote

Did you know that while the average woman will earn 78 cents to the average man's dollar in the United States, globally this extends to women only earning on average 50 cents to the man's dollar.

Yes, I did know that, no one claimed otherwise. Also, please provide a source for your claim with the 50 cents per dollar, please. Nevermind, I am blind. At least I think so, that graphic isn't really intuitive. Yet some those countries are also those where a woman isn't even allowed to leave the house alone, so I am unsure if you really want to make them count, since the problems there regarding this topic are grounded entirely differently as, let's say, in the US.

Quote

Assuming we make progress at all, at the current rate, closing the pay gap will take another 170 years. http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2016/

So just in time to be closed in 2461.

Quote

Abortion rights are terrible globally. 8-18% of maternal deaths are due to unsafe abortion: https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-worldwide
And roughly 22,500 to 44,000 women died in 2014 due to abortion-related deaths. There are still six countries in the world that do not permit abortion under any circumstances.

Unsure how this is related to men/woman pay.

Quote

There is no nation in the world that has a gender parity score of 100%. http://projects.two-n.com/world-gender/

Obviously, no one claimed otherwise. I also, deliberately put the word civilized in brackets, since I am fully aware that there are countries, for example in the Middle East, where women are still treated like dirt. I do not see this as civilized behaviour, hence why I excluded these countries in my mind.

Quote

Globally, 214 million women still can't get hold of modern contraception. https://www.guttmacher.org/news-release/2017/greater-investments-needed-meet-womens-sexual-and-reproductive-health-needs
Satisfying the current unmet need for contraception this year could prevent 67 million unintended pregnancies per year.

Again, unsure why this is related to a PR that implents a wage gap. This is not about Gender Equality in itself (at least it shouldn't be, since this PR doesn't implement (absent) woman rights) but the gender pay gap alone.

Quote

Women also don't have work-life balance. At all. http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/work-life-balance/

Many people, no matter the gender don't have one, what is shown here does not disclose any criteria how this "index" is calculated.

I, of course cannot speak for all countries, rather for my own, so I will quote this from the article you linked:

"In Germany, full-time workers devote 65% of their day on average, or 15.6 hours, to personal care (eating, sleeping, etc.) and leisure (socialising with friends and family, hobbies, games, computer and television use, etc.)..."

I tell you, I fucking wish. I really like to know where they draw these numbers from but I can assure you that is not the case.

Quote

If women and men were to share unpaid tasks equally, women would gain 5 hours of free time per week.

Explanation and, more important, source please

 

 

Also, I really recommend closing this thread. I really don't want to argue with any of you about such heavy topics. It almost always leads nowhere and is entirely unnessecary, just like the PR that this thread is related to.

Edited March 2, 2019 by KingOfThePing

[Scheveningen]

6 minutes ago, KingOfThePing said:

Also, I really recommend closing this thread. I really don't want to argue with any of you about such heavy topics.

I was going to expand even further, but you ended on this low note, making it pointless to reply with anything else but the following;

Then don't post. Only you are responsible for what you're comfortable to discuss about. Don't say something like "I recommend closing this thread because this is something I personally am not comfortable talking about it", because the rest of us still want to have this discussion. With or without you, it doesn't matter. You can choose not to participate.

 

Edited March 2, 2019 by Scheveningen

[KingOfThePing]

This is a feedback thread to an implementation of a mechanic that is entirely unneeded and unnessecary, so I did post my opinion about it. But you are, of course, completely right. I will refrain from engaging the discussion here that is not related to this unneeded PR, since discussions about a topic like politics always lead to conflict.

[Scheveningen]

The intent of what I was posting was to drive the point home that it would be incredibly unlikely that 400 years could pass and it'd solve sexism entirely. Not only is it boring from a narrative point of view (because there's very few conflicts in terms of being a human if you take all that conflict away from them and throw it elsewhere), but it doesn't seem rather fathomable that discrimination would be instantly phased out in 400 or so years, yet other races are systemically plagued with the same systemic issues. It just does not make consistent sense.

Intersectionality is something of an interesting thing I'd love to see tackled ICly and despite all the inevitable drama we'd see from female characters about this, we'd also see a lot of intersectional bonding over this dilemma. Which would lead to a lot of really interesting interactions.

Discrimination is surely a sour subject to discuss IRL and sometimes people play video games to escape it... but I feel like if you're playing a roleplay server of all places to escape, rather than get immersed, then you may be in for a rough ride when the immersive elements get a little too real, as they often do.

Edited March 2, 2019 by Scheveningen

[KingOfThePing]

I think you misunderstood me, I did not intend to critzise your intent to why you brought your arguments forward, neither did I wanted to spark a need to justify or explain yourself why you posted what you posted.

[Conspiir]

It feels like the want here is conflict and the grasp is at something many people don't want the conflict to be about.

 

Maybe we should find another type of conflict for humans instead of this one?

[Resilynn]

Holy shit. No company today adopts an official policy of paying women 20% less.  Women tend to earn less because they don’t get raises, don’t get promotions, and end up driven to fields that generally pay less. 

 This PR just seems unreasonable. It’s not grounded in this reality, and seems out of place in its own world. 

[Scheveningen]

7 minutes ago, Resilynn said:

No company today adopts an official policy of paying women 20% less.

 

7 minutes ago, Resilynn said:

Women tend to earn less because they don’t get raises, don’t get promotions, and end up driven to fields that generally pay less. 

The absolute lack of awareness as to why this is a problem.

[MoondancerPony]

6 hours ago, Senpai Jackboot said:

This does not reflect the conflicts and issues present in humanity. 

I agree with this. There is absolutely no reason for this PR. If it were in the suggestions subforum and not the projects subforum, I would vote for dismissal, echoing what Amory said.

This doesn't reflect current themes in the lore, except maybe unions, tangentially. Even the CEO of NanoTrasen is a woman, Miranda Trasen. I have absolutely no idea where this PR came from or why it's lasted for as long as it has.

[Coalf]

I don't know why there is a debate Jackboot said he doesn't want to do it and wage gaps are fully in the field of lore, not development.
If he said there ain't one, there ain't one and that's that.

Also holy hell this would horribly cripple Vaurca with the "Neuter" tag because they would be BARELY able to purchase ANYTHING from the K'ois vendors and plenty of vaurca rely on those in deadhour rounds to even survive. This would be a horrible commit.
- 1

Edited March 2, 2019 by Coalf