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BurgerB's Permaban Unappeal

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BYOND Key: BurgerBB

Total Ban Length: "Permanent"

Banning staff member's Key: Trishana and Drago

Reason of Ban: 

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Right so this will be an odd ban request because it is more of a staff complaint or a general bitch thread than a ban appeal given the content involved.

 

Given the people I've talked to on discord a week after this happened, I learned that this isn't actually a permaban but just "1 week long babn + megawarning" to tell me to get my shit together so I know for a fact that if I apologize and say that I'll improve I'll be unbanned and back to playing Aurora. I won't be doing exactly what people apparently planned, instead I will be arguing the system which probably might not get me anywhere but it's worth a shot to show you my perspective.

Maybe I have a different idea on how and why and when permabans should be placed, but this whole ban is just farcical and I don't know if I'll be permanently playing on Aurora considering the ban itself lead me to playing better servers and focusing more on Burgerstation 13's development. Aurora was out of my mind until one of the devs here apparently recommended a solicitor to bother me about work for another server, which annoyed me, so now that I'm reminded that Aurora exists again, here I am.

I only have 3 regrets from this ban. One, is accidentally arguing with Shev, the second is not appealing my warnings earlier. Let's start with the warnings because that's more important. During the ban request, and discussion with drago, my warnings were apparently a contributing factor to a permaban. They mentioned discord warnings and forum warnings too but I do not have full access to those so I can't appeal them. So let's discuss them since their number was specifically brought up multiple times in discussions about a permaban.

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Warning 1, 2, and Yonnimer's Chad Archibald warning are the only legitimate warnings in this case so I will be disputing all but those.

shameoneturtles warning was re-applied because I was warned for inappropriate borg behavior by another mod, which was appealed and renamed into something else that I thought was bullshit but I don't think it was worth anyone's time to appeal an appeal so I moved on. Basically my cyborg's behavior was typing in all caps every time it was upset or whatever and that annoyed 2 people because all caps was difficult to read for them. I don't think it was worth a warn, perhaps a verbal "hey stop doing this, it's annoying people" considering it's not exactly against the rules, but I never did it again as proven by the lack of bans or warnings about it. FLAWED talking in all caps is unsubstantial compared to the other weird borg personality quirks, including a literal dominatrix mother AI or some shit or trashy pAIs who do nothing but scream on the radio and making fun of people dying on the radio because they don't have laws, but I digress. The warning is more of a flaw in making a good character than it is with how I treat other players.

queenofyugoslavia's warning is the most relevant warning and the only warning about how I treat other players. The situation was the following: Menown had a stupidly long records. It spanned 4 pages on a google doc, the longest I've ever seen out of any records. It wasn't organized well. The font and layout was annoying, and it was incredibly difficult to read. I ended up giving them the wrong prescription because of it, and after they told me it was the wrong prescription, I told them in looc that their records is garbage and really needs to improved. I stated all that I mentioned above, albeit with a bit of a grudge. After our criticisms were exchanged, we both parted ways. 3 minutes later he starts complaining to me over ooc. He said some remark about how I wasn't a very good chemist or how I fucked up their prescription or something. I then posted his records in ooc to prove to people that it was annoying to look at, and menown flipped shit. I believe he had a breakdown, or a mini-breakdown which I feel bad for, but I ended up getting bwoinked for being a dick. I admit I was being a dick but was it a warnable dick? Was it me being a dick enough to use that as an example as to why I should be permabanned? Good fucking lord no. The ban was very likely only applied because they felt bad for menown. I can say this with confidence considering worse shit has been said by staff and players alike and the most that was ever done was "They were talked to." The only reason why I didn't appeal it because I knew with confidence that I wouldn't be a dick with that magnitude again so it wasn't worth my time to appeal.

Evendorf's PDA warning is a bug or a case of mistaken identity. I've brought this up several times to staff yet it's still there. I never done such a thing and I only became aware of its existence 2 weeks after it was applied.

readthisnameplz was a weird occurrence. I was messing with tcomms as AI and I asked as a joke if I could use comic sans over radio to sound like sans over undertale, he said no, so instead to test it I applied the script to a hidden channel not viewable by anyone and tested it on there. I was instantly greeted with a warning, no bwoink. It wasn't worth my time appealing considering I had 3 other complaints up and I didn't think it would matter since I wouldn't be doing that again.

The forum warning and bans are something else. In all cases they're about two people being dicks to each other in an argument and not a result of me going out of my way to attack someone. Most of the warnings are little things such as joking about how people who use AMR rifles have small penises or pointing out that someone isn't being genuine by listing all the fallacies they commited and asking them to stop posting. On discord I think I've received 2 warnings, but I'm not sure since I do not have access to those. I think having access to those would help my case substantially because the point I'm trying to get across is the following:

The ban was fucking stupid.

I've never been banned on the server. I've never been banned on discord. I've been banned on the forums once for 3 days, twice if you count garancus's ban. Let me just get this across. That's nothing. The ban request was literally created because I disagreed with shev about me being a problem. It wasn't me insulting him, it wasn't me being a dick, he said that I was a problem and I disagreed. He then decided that it would be a good thing to make a ban request thread saying a whole shitload of malicious shit about me. Like maybe I'm just insane or something but it seems like everyone has forgotten the history of Shev, and the fact that the evidence used in the thread was 3 staff/player complaint threads when those meant absolutely fucking nothing. My only regret in that situation is not realising that I was arguing with shev, as he changed his name and avatar. If I knew that I was arguing with shev, I would've immediately conceded and stopped the argument because this is the sort of thing he would do. I guarantee you that if he didn't make that ban request, I would still be here with no additional warnings, notes, or bans.

I also know this because from what I'm interpreting from talking to staff and other players, the ban itself was only created to scare me into improving my behavior, and I believe this. There is absolutely nothing to support the justification of this being a permanent ban. If the permaban was intended to scare me to get me to appeal and by extension improve my behavior, then that is malicious as fuck. I don't think the ban was thought through either considering the time it took for the ban to applied, the fact that 0 questions or statements were asked by trishina or drago. I do not trust trishina to have a fair and impartial judgement since they were one of the problem people who would break forum rules to make "XD organ damage" comments on suggestion threads I made, shittalking me in ooc, and on occasion, getting drunk and mentioning about how often they're drunk when moderating. Sure when I brought it up to admins, it was "handled", but I question that given the lack of communication.

So yeah I'm just really irritated how this all turned out. I feel like what I'm saying probably won't matter given the priority of how things are handled. I can see while opening another browser that my staff/player complaints, with exception to evandorf with a "we're looking into it", hasn't been resolved.

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Myself and Tish will be handling the appeal. I have no issue unbanning you, the question is that if unbanned, what will change? Nobody wants to have to go through this stuff again so the question is, what has changed or what will change to avoid issues with others that came up before

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1 hour ago, BurgerBB said:

They mentioned discord warnings and forum warnings too but I do not have full access to those so I can't appeal them.

Your forum warnings are listed on your profile and can be accessed there. (Also attached below for your convenience; with incomplete warning reasons due to the format)

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1 hour ago, DRagO said:

Myself and Tish will be handling the appeal. I have no issue unbanning you, the question is that if unbanned, what will change? Nobody wants to have to go through this stuff again so the question is, what has changed or what will change to avoid issues with others that came up before

Nothing, at the rate of which this thread is going. After about 3 days when I was banned, I came to a thought:

How come it is not okay for me to tell someone, alone and indirectly, they're a bad antag, but it is okay for people to directly refer to me and directly say that I shouldn't be a player on this server?

An extension of this thought:

Why do people think it's okay to start a peanut gallery where they, rudely might I add, say that I'm not deserving of people a community member, without compromise, with the included context of "They have shitlfinged towards me in the past."?

This is equivalent to me, committing manslaughter, and complaining that the first degree murderers over yonder have received a lesser punishment or no punishment at all. Part of the reason why I think the ban is unfair in the first place is that there are a lot of unpunished shitters, such as those in this thread, who have the same aggressive issues as me, but they don't spread it out equally. Maybe I'm insane but I find that talking shit about their ability to play a game is significantly less damaging than talking shit about their ability to be a human, and no, I'm not referring to genuine criticism.

 

Saying that I am rude to people is valid criticism. Saying it causes issues and that I should stop is valid criticism; it's a criticism that I also agree with.

Saying that I'm unfit to be a player, whilst typing up 2 paragraphs about how banning me has improved their experience, while that person also has a history of being an asshole, while justifying it by saying "well I'm a member of the community and your ban mentioned the community sooooo" is not valid criticism.

 

Context is everything.

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Just to be clear I think it is an issue that I call people out constantly. I've stated this several times in the ban request thread. I, however, strongly believe that the ban itself is a bigger issue than me making a 3 paragraph thread giving a shitty, general apology about me wronging people that does not serve to calm the people who were actually hurt by my actions, but only to satisfy the pitchfork welders as seen in this thread.

 

Give me an incident where I wronged you and I will explain to you why I did the things I did, and if the things I did were wrong, I will apologize. If you don't want to do it in this thread, drop me a PM on discord.

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As per the rules of this specific section of the forum, you may not post in the appeals unless you are directly involved in the actions that led to the ban. Please abstain from continuing the argument. All previous posts that do not adhere by this rule are going to be soft-deleted, meaning staff will still be able to read them. Any future posts from people not related to the appeal will result in punishment being issued. To those parties that are be involved and wish to participate, please see to the other rules.

Thank you.

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Posted (edited)

Lemme clear some things up.

1. The nature of me making the ban request was not motivated out of a single, insignificant argument by itself.

I wrote up the ban request as a last straw measure due to your complete inability (or lack of want) to change your tactics when discussing problems, and your general disposition towards people. You are/were one of the loudest voices in this community, and that actually carries a massive responsibility because people tend to notice the loudest voices. Those people tend to be the biggest motivators for change, but when your tone seems unfocused or with the intent to be particularly toxic, people will have difficulty liking you. When you are not liked, it becomes difficult to get your points across, because when you are disliked for your behavior you become scrutinized at every opportunity for anything you have to say versus what you have said and done. On the positive end of it, the loudest voices that speak rightly and appropriately can cause such positive changes to the community and its internal mindsets on issues.
I do not care to recall exactly when your attitude problems began to truly ramp up in severity, but I believe it to be a mistake of the administration to not give you more adequate, escalated discipline to reign you into the understanding that there are boundaries that should at least be avoided in crossing. I will not list 5 paragraphs full of examples of your attitude as evidence because such examples of your attitude can be found through your forum posts, server logs and discord messages from when you were not banned. Likewise, this isn't a subject to dispute the evidence, but rather to appeal the ban. Ban appeals are usually made under the principle of, "I did wrong, but can I be granted leniency, please?"

Staff complaints are the polar opposite side of the spectrum. You normally issue those if you think the staff member did a bad or the evidence is disputed.

2. The ultimate reason for the ban request being written on my end was because I viewed your attitude, disposition and method of dealing with problems as inherently toxic and awful for the community environment to just allow to continue.

I've already pointed out that I think it's a failure on the administration for not taking additional measures to punish any of your past behavior much harder than they actually did. Yes, I'm sure the permaban seemed like it came too soon because you never earned a substantial tempban prior to that. Given your past behavior and also your knack for escalating situations with your tactlessness, I'm not necessarily as shocked.
Like I said before, I had no intention of negotiating or making amends with you before because I did not believe there was any reconciling with you to be had. There was next to no chance that any discussion with you would end in, "I could stand to not be an ass" because plenty of people have had that discussion with you before and you simply disagreed with them and did not change. That and I was pretty pissed with you! Won't lie, that definitely factored into writing up that ban request. In retrospect I don't regret any of it because I don't think a change of words I could've used would have changed my thoughts on it. I still take issue with your behavior.
There were times where I actually thought you could stand out as an upstanding example to this community, but the amount of times you threw all that away by behaving bitter and pissed off at people just made me equally bitter and pissed off with you.

3. I'm well aware of my past behavior and my past (and even current) negative influences on this community.

And if I see behavior that seems dangerously close to my worst behavior on this server and I call it out, it should probably mean something, regardless of the hypocrisy involved. I have experience and recognition with being a shitty person, plenty of it. 
I'm attempting to improve for the better, one day at a time. The important question is, what are you planning on doing to improve for the better? Not asking that as an internet-dick-measuring contest, asking that genuinely, what do you plan on improving yourself upon if this gets appealed?
It is an actually important question. I don't really care about what you think the state of this community is, only thing I care about is what example you plan on setting. I will not deny there are plenty of issues with this community, there are some things that can stand to be far better than it is currently. But before we can confront those issues, we have to be better than the issues we tackle, or else we will fail in dealing with them.

4. Anything I hadn't directly responded to is something I don't think is relevant in addressing, and is likely better suited discussing through another means.

This isn't because I don't care about, for instance, the presentation of certain administrators who openly admit to being drunk while moderating/administrating, assuming that is at all true. It's a separate subject from what I think is actually important regarding this thread, and one could actually say that bringing up such an irrelevant thing is simply seeking to cast blame upon others in order to excuse their own behavior. Something to think about, anyway.

But more or less, TL;DR, I won't personally support this appeal until you promise that your behavior will improve in three ways:
1. Attitude/general disposition towards others (case-by-case, naturally, won't ask you treat somebody with respect if they told you to off yourself, for example)
2. The words you choose to address issues you see either through an in-game or out-of-game format
3. Fair and reasonable treatment of other community members when discussing any array of discussions

If you can't or won't show that you have any interest in improving any of those three, then clearly this appeal is a waste of time and should be denied.

Edited by Scheveningen
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The most important thing from the above post in this image is that the ban request was admitted made in a emotional state, as this is the only new information given to the table.

Yes, I'm disregarding the majority of your post because I'm tired of hearing the same psychoanalysis about me over and over again. It's degrading. It's annoying. It's childish. It's usually filled with misinformation or falsehoods, but when it isn't, It states some information that's already known but expands it into several paragraphs and adds fluff that no one cares about. People before you, before their posts were deleted, did the same thing and it is just as annoying as it is now as it is then.

Like I don't know how to actually express this with being a dick, but I'm pretty fucking sick of kids treating me like a child or some object to be analyzed or whatever and giving me a 12 step plan that no one asked for. I thought I've made it very clear in the past that I'm not interested in listening to people who do this sort of thing. I mean for christ sakes, the ban request was made in the first place because I said "No, I disagree." when 3 people dogpiled me about how I'm a terrible person.

And the irony isn't lost on me. I'm giving advice on how people need to improve as an antag and people are getting annoyed. People are giving me advice on how to improve as a person and I'm getting annoyed. However, just ask yourself which one of those is the most detrimental to one's sanity.

 

So here is a good deal: I will tell people to fuck straight off if they attempt to psychoanalyze me or give their ten cents that no one asked for or needed as to why I'm hated by people. I expect people to do the exact same if I give antag advice that they do not ask for.

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4 hours ago, BurgerBB said:

So here is a good deal: I will tell people to fuck straight off if they attempt to psychoanalyze me or give their ten cents that no one asked for or needed as to why I'm hated by people. I expect people to do the exact same if I give antag advice that they do not ask for.

 

"So here is a good deal: if you're toxic, I'll breed more toxicity. I expect people to do the exact same if I'm toxic towards them."

Good luck getting this appealed, then.

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5 hours ago, Scheveningen said:

 

"So here is a good deal: if you're toxic, I'll breed more toxicity. I expect people to do the exact same if I'm toxic towards them."

Good luck getting this appealed, then.

I think you're intentionally misrepresenting the core of what I have to say and I don't appreciate that especially when you seemingly ignored most of what I had to say just to post an epic zinger that misquotes me.

What I said is honest. I have every right to tell someone to fuck off if they attempt to act like an armchair psychologist. In turn, I'm going to say that someone has a right to tell me to fuck off if the advice I am giving is unconstructive. Telling someone to fuck off is incredibly mild to some of the shit that people, including in this thread, have gotten away with. The current attitude of administration is that regardless of what anyone says, as long as they don't use mean words, they can say it. Someone can tell me that people celebrated my departure from Aurora and face 0 repercussions for their actions while I myself get warnings for making a joke about AMR users having small penises. One of those had a harsher message, and spoiler alert, it didn't involve a joke. Unless staff admit that someone who constantly writes paragraphs upon paragraphs of psychoanalysis that no one wanted nor asked for is not a problem, and by extension, they won't deal with it, then I'm just going to tell people to fuck off and block them.

I don't play aurora to be belittled by people who think they are superior to me. Neither do others. If I get permabanned for doing that while people like you still exist on the server because you limit you shittalking to one person at a time at any given moment, then that is hypocrisy. So I'm telling you as a human being to another human being that you need to stop. I legitimately don't care what you have to say about me. I don't want to hear it. I don't think anyone else wants to hear it. No one gives a fuck. You don't know me, I know me. I don't know others, the others know themselves. This is the philosophy I learned over the past few weeks and I think that this is an excellent philosophy that will both stop me giving unsolicited criticisms about people's antag play, and other peoples unsolicited criticisms that they learned about in a 2 minute ted talk animation video about me.

This isn't limited to just criticism against me. Take a look into the other staff/player/ban request threads. 75% of content starts with "Well I was somewhat involved..." and then writes 8 paragraphs of psychoanalysis on the situation; triple than what the people ACTUALLY involved have to say. So part of the reason why I roll my eyes at the fact that this is a permaban is that significantly worse things have been said by worse people.

Me telling someone that they're antag play is bad 1000 times is still less significant than someone telling me to kill myself.

Me telling someone that they should stop chair rping 1000 times is still less significant than being called autistic or retarded.

Me telling someone that they should simply "Fuck off." 1000 times is still less significant than someone informing me in an improper context that my departure was celebrated by many users.

 

Do not lecture me about toxicity creating toxicity when you yourself, in your ban request, went over the line several times. If your post was just a rant on discord then you probably would've been banned for a day.

 

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Im going to give this abit of time since Tish is busy, but my question is to redirect this into a more constructive note.

If unbanned, what will change and what can be done to show past poor behavior patterns wont repeat? And if unbanned and they do repeat ,what do you feel should result

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Does not seem like you're accepting of the ban. Should be a staff complaint.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, BurgerBB said:

I think you're intentionally misrepresenting the core of what I have to say and I don't appreciate that especially when you seemingly ignored most of what I had to say just to post an epic zinger that misquotes me.

Most of what you say has nothing to do with why you should be unbanned from this server, due to your conduct and your very toxic viewpoints on how this community should be run. It wasn't just an epic zinger either, because there's plenty of evidence that stacks up to create this image of you repeating this pattern where you get wound up over what should be nothing to you, and your usual response to 'issues' you see only makes addressing the issue even more uncomfortable and difficult for everyone else that has to respond to you.

10 hours ago, BurgerBB said:

I don't play aurora to be belittled by people who think they are superior to me.

I entirely agree. It is fortunate that you finally understand where the issue is now and one part of why you were permanently banned. However, you don't seem to understand the concept of consistency and actual improvement. Or, rather, you don't care. 

Edited by Scheveningen

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6 hours ago, Scheveningen said:

Most of what you say has nothing to do with why you should be unbanned from this server, due to your conduct and your very toxic viewpoints on how this community should be run. It wasn't just an epic zinger either, because there's plenty of evidence that stacks up to create this image of you repeating this pattern where you get wound up over what should be nothing to you, and your usual response to 'issues' you see only makes addressing the issue even more uncomfortable and difficult for everyone else that has to respond to you.

I entirely agree. It is fortunate that you finally understand where the issue is now and one part of why you were permanently banned. However, you don't seem to understand the concept of consistency and actual improvement. Or, rather, you don't care. 

I think I'm done reading your posts. I legitimately don't give a fuck about what you think I think, as I already know what I think.

Again, as I said for the millionth time, I do not give a shit about your 1.33 GPA psychoanalysis about me. Seriously fuck off with this shit. It's not constructive. It's not accurate. It isn't useful. It's more toxic than anything I said in this thread. Stop using the fact that you were the one who created the ban request thread as an excuse to pretend to act like staff.

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11 hours ago, DRagO said:

Im going to give this abit of time since Tish is busy, but my question is to redirect this into a more constructive note.

If unbanned, what will change and what can be done to show past poor behavior patterns wont repeat? And if unbanned and they do repeat ,what do you feel should result

I mean I can't prove that I won't do something again unless I don't do something again. I said that I'm done giving people unwanted criticism because I think at this point I don't care to see anyone improve, and also the fact that it's clear that it gets people upset so I won't do it, but I don't think I really have to prove anything because the ban in the first place wasn't appropriate and I think that should be addressed instead.

Like again, I'm pretty fucking sure that people are afraid to post examples because all the examples they have are incredibly minor. The issue with me is that I have a 1000 different minor issues that lead up to one big issue. On their own, those minor issues are absolutely fucking nothing compared to some of the other players and staff who have 200 moderate issues or 4 major issues.

Let's start from the basis. What is the issue with my conduct? Is it that I'm just rude? Is it just that I give too much criticism? I feel it's both but if you say it's both then I'm going to be holding others to the same standards that you're currently applying to me.

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Its how you conduct yourself. I can be upset with how people are playing as antag, but I shouldn't be a ass to them about it or keep berating them. Criticism should be constructive and not empty arguments. The behavior that needs to change is watching the overall attitude, not belittling people or insulting them while giving criticism, overall improving how you interact with others. 

 

This appeal isnt about how others conduct themself but is how you conduct yourself. I see that you can be a very very kind person, but you need to realize that if you want this appeal accepted, you need to accept the issue that your attitude needs to improve and explain how you are going to improve. Essentialy, @Arrow768 makes a valid point in his forum warning, if you want these changes and want people to be held to a certain standard, what are you going to do to be the change you want to see?

There needs to be a change in conduct and owning up to issues instead of refering to others before I would consider accepting this appeal, a punishment should always have growth from it, and simply lifting a punishment without accepting, understanding and improving does nothing good for you or the server if you repeat the same conduct and get banned again. 

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3 hours ago, DRagO said:

Its how you conduct yourself. I can be upset with how people are playing as antag, but I shouldn't be a ass to them about it or keep berating them. Criticism should be constructive and not empty arguments. The behavior that needs to change is watching the overall attitude, not belittling people or insulting them while giving criticism, overall improving how you interact with others. 

 

This appeal isnt about how others conduct themself but is how you conduct yourself. I see that you can be a very very kind person, but you need to realize that if you want this appeal accepted, you need to accept the issue that your attitude needs to improve and explain how you are going to improve. Essentialy, @Arrow768 makes a valid point in his forum warning, if you want these changes and want people to be held to a certain standard, what are you going to do to be the change you want to see?

There needs to be a change in conduct and owning up to issues instead of refering to others before I would consider accepting this appeal, a punishment should always have growth from it, and simply lifting a punishment without accepting, understanding and improving does nothing good for you or the server if you repeat the same conduct and get banned again. 

I think something incredibly interesting has happened during my time here. Like before I was a bitter old man, I would hold people's behavior to a very high standard. I mean I still do today but as time went on and I realise that some people won't change themselves or that what they were necessarily doing wasn't technically against the rules. I then did the same thing they were doing because I was usually bitter or upset about that very fact. Since I complained in the past about it, I get treated more harshly because of it. Like there is a very fine line between a problem and not a problem when it comes to someone being a problem.

If someone shitposts about how bad someone is in OOC no one gives a shit. No one is talked to. Nothing is dealt with. If anything was dealt with, it was just "they were talked to" and nothing more which probably explains the fact that I've received 0 official warnings and 1 "not-really-a-warning-but-you-should-still-stop" verbal warning. What I do is pretty fucking minor compared to some of the shit flinged my way and the shit I've seen flinged in other people's direction. I  don't mean to go off topic, but there are a ton of users here who have gotten away with being bitter cunts because it's just a personality/behavioral quirk of theirs. Any hostility that they spew is hidden behind a veil of "banter", "shitposting", or "just how they act." and no one wants to act on it because they don't want to risk looking like a whiny bitch or some trivial shit. I recall this exact same thing happened with Coalf who was an admin at the time. They just flipped out at me on discord with Abo was there, and abo told them to chill out. Coalf did not chill. Abo then went onto explain that he's just "feisty" and that somehow justified an admin breaking rules. I recall the admin who actually perma'd me, Trishina, shitposting in the suggestion forums (there was strict rule enforcement there, by the way) with "Organ damage xd" on a PR I made,  and someone explaining to me that it wasn't really that big of a deal because that's just how they are.

In contrast to when I act out of line, I get scolded because I should know better, and get shit like "Be the change you want to be." or "You know what you're doing is wrong because you complain about it." Like, honestly, eyebrows should be raised when warnings or notes contain language such as that because it's specifically using the fact that I point out other people's bad behavior as well. Like for fuck sakes, the player/staff complaints I made were used in the ban request. Maybe I'm just fucking crazy but I find that really messed up. 

Like obviously my behavior will be better but I shouldn't have to say that my behavior will improve. I shouldn't have to argue that it will improve because the ban in the first place was just not thought out. I have a hard time seeing the validity of a permaban when in my experience people have said and done way worse things about me as mentioned above. I don't specifically target people because I don't go on a personal level. I complain when the shuttle departs, not when the round ends and I can see the names because the names are mostly irrelevant. I have been specifically targeted with actual harassment, and when that happens, and when I bring it up to staff, they go "We're not here to protect you from criticism." or "You dug yourself this hole." regardless if it's actually constructive, criticism that has been asked asked for, or useful.

Like there are a lot of things I want to be addressed, like why you and trish felt the need to make it a permaban and why it was addressed so quickly. It's been almost a month since I made some staff/player complaints and they haven't been resolved yet. My ban request was resolved in under a day.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

I think something incredibly interesting has happened during my time here. Like before I was a bitter old man, I would hold people's behavior to a very high standard. I mean I still do today but as time went on and I realise that some people won't change themselves or that what they were necessarily doing wasn't technically against the rules. I then did the same thing they were doing because I was usually bitter or upset about that very fact. Since I complained in the past about it, I get treated more harshly because of it. Like there is a very fine line between a problem and not a problem when it comes to someone being a problem.

If someone shitposts about how bad someone is in OOC no one gives a shit. No one is talked to. Nothing is dealt with. If anything was dealt with, it was just "they were talked to" and nothing more which probably explains the fact that I've received 0 official warnings and 1 "not-really-a-warning-but-you-should-still-stop" verbal warning. What I do is pretty fucking minor compared to some of the shit flinged my way and the shit I've seen flinged in other people's direction. I  don't mean to go off topic, but there are a ton of users here who have gotten away with being bitter cunts because it's just a personality/behavioral quirk of theirs. Any hostility that they spew is hidden behind a veil of "banter", "shitposting", or "just how they act." and no one wants to act on it because they don't want to risk looking like a whiny bitch or some trivial shit. I recall this exact same thing happened with Coalf who was an admin at the time. They just flipped out at me on discord with Abo was there, and abo told them to chill out. Coalf did not chill. Abo then went onto explain that he's just "feisty" and that somehow justified an admin breaking rules. I recall the admin who actually perma'd me, Trishina, shitposting in the suggestion forums (there was strict rule enforcement there, by the way) with "Organ damage xd" on a PR I made,  and someone explaining to me that it wasn't really that big of a deal because that's just how they are.

In contrast to when I act out of line, I get scolded because I should know better, and get shit like "Be the change you want to be." or "You know what you're doing is wrong because you complain about it." Like, honestly, eyebrows should be raised when warnings or notes contain language such as that because it's specifically using the fact that I point out other people's bad behavior as well. Like for fuck sakes, the player/staff complaints I made were used in the ban request. Maybe I'm just fucking crazy but I find that really messed up. 

Like obviously my behavior will be better but I shouldn't have to say that my behavior will improve. I shouldn't have to argue that it will improve because the ban in the first place was just not thought out. I have a hard time seeing the validity of a permaban when in my experience people have said and done way worse things about me as mentioned above. I don't specifically target people because I don't go on a personal level. I complain when the shuttle departs, not when the round ends and I can see the names because the names are mostly irrelevant. I have been specifically targeted with actual harassment, and when that happens, and when I bring it up to staff, they go "We're not here to protect you from criticism." or "You dug yourself this hole." regardless if it's actually constructive, criticism that has been asked asked for, or useful.

Like there are a lot of things I want to be addressed, like why you and trish felt the need to make it a permaban and why it was addressed so quickly. It's been almost a month since I made some staff/player complaints and they haven't been resolved yet. My ban request was resolved in under a day.

 

 

As I said before to you over discord, the ban itself isnt permanent in the sense of forever, its in the sense that until behavior/attitude is improved and you can tell us how you will improve and to the point that its clear there wont be future issues regarding your behavior. Punishments as you say should be enforced for these things, but a punishment is supposed to teach people to learn from there mistakes and improve. If we apply a ban for a new player or even a long time player and accept the appeal without them understanding and showing they will improve, it sets people up for failure and creates a future problem when there behavior escalates.  As for the comment about the decision, im unsure as to why the other complaints are taking so long, however what was discussed in the ban request was valid issues that have been raised for quite awhile, aswell as a history of warnings, notes ect across the forums, discord and ingame and it was suggested that instead of a punishment on a harsher scale to give it in this scale so its there for you to appeal when you feel you have improved the behavior problems

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, BurgerBB said:

I recall this exact same thing happened with Coalf who was an admin at the time. They just flipped out at me on discord with Abo was there, and abo told them to chill out. Coalf did not chill. Abo then went onto explain that he's just "feisty" and that somehow justified an admin breaking rules.

False. I maintain an in depth record of staff wrong doings. Yes, he "was talked to". A expression we use when we do not want to go in depth of the actions taken. In reality, he got a warning. There's no justification to breaking the rules, in the same way I was not immune to being punished if I've broken the rules. 

 

Use another example for your point.

I'm genuinely unsure why you're using a ban appeal when you aren't accepting of the whole ban premise. Use a staff complaint. 

Edited by Sharp

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Don't take this as a "haha got u ;)))))" post, I am simply clearing up the events which transpired.

The actual argument originated from the Lunchbox PR, where you began calling every single argument in the thread "shitposting" regardless of who posted it and how they worded it, if they were shitposts is for everyone who reads the PR to interpret, it is still in the suggestion archives.
At the time during the argument, NortonDK called you "Autistic". After this, you pointed out that this is against the rules and I gave NortonDK a strike.
After that, you kept complaining what whenever you point something out it keeps being ignored, even after NortonDK was specifically struck after you pointed out he called you autistic.
At that point, I got angry and called you "A Nini", as in my opinion you simply wished to keep the "I am the victim" train going. See image:

Spoiler

3642f325e7.png

 

Admittedly I went off to assume a lot of things, for example, I assumed that the only reason you wanted to change AI to a 30% spawn was that you started playing borg and kept complaining about the fact that AI's keep telling you to do things, which you voice a dislike of.
Or I even accused you of only wanting to remove lunchboxes because you played a chef for a week.

After this train of thought Garn, not Aboshehab but Garn told me to "Calm down Coalf, Jesus."
Then later I was warned by Aboshehab that if this would continue, action would be taken against me.

Again this isn't a callout post but just clarification, as I was specifically named as an example of someone that has been doing much worse things than you and never get punished for it.
I am not able to provide the warning message itself as I believe I was warned specifically in the admin/mod channel to which I do not have access to.
 

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Posted (edited)

To avoid accusations of "You are trying to make your posts look prettier", no I've said some bad things during that and I've been called out by Garn for a good reason.
If anyone wants to look up what was said during that entire discord conversation search for:
"Dronz, Kobold Enthusiast08/27/2018

Maybe you should fix drinking food before you try to do anything with chef @(((Burger" (without the brackets after @)
That is where the entire argument starts. I'm not going to screenshot the ENTIRE DISCORD because it was a gigantic conversation with multiple derailments and like 10 people joining into it.

Edited by Coalf

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8 hours ago, DRagO said:

As I said before to you over discord, the ban itself isnt permanent in the sense of forever, its in the sense that until behavior/attitude is improved and you can tell us how you will improve and to the point that its clear there wont be future issues regarding your behavior. Punishments as you say should be enforced for these things, but a punishment is supposed to teach people to learn from there mistakes and improve. If we apply a ban for a new player or even a long time player and accept the appeal without them understanding and showing they will improve, it sets people up for failure and creates a future problem when there behavior escalates.  As for the comment about the decision, im unsure as to why the other complaints are taking so long, however what was discussed in the ban request was valid issues that have been raised for quite awhile, aswell as a history of warnings, notes ect across the forums, discord and ingame and it was suggested that instead of a punishment on a harsher scale to give it in this scale so its there for you to appeal when you feel you have improved the behavior problems

It's a permanent ban. I don't give a shit if it has the ability to be appealed. A permanent ban is different from a regular ban because I have to prove that I'm worthy of being here when I shouldn't have to in the first place because what I did is absolutely insignificant. 

A majority of things I pointed out aren't being addressed still. You keep going back to my warnings about my bad behavior yet there is only 1 in game instance of doing it, and 2 discord warnings that happened over several months ago. The forum warnings are also quite old, with the exception of the AMR joke which is recent but absolutely fucking nothing. The in game instance, I too involving menown was absolutely nothing and I genuinely believe that you at the time were looking to give me shit for anything because this was at a time when you genuinely despised me to the point where you actually apologized for your behavior before you became a dev.

This is what happened: Menown had a long 4 page medical record linked to a google doc. I told him his medical records were shit and should be cut down or reorganized because I was confused over their prescriptions. He didn't take the advice so I moved on. He then proceeded to shittalk me in OOC so I'm like "Okay, these are what your medical records look like." and they then proceeded to have a mental breakdown to which you did some hard investigation to try and dink me for the leaking OOC records on but instead you told me I should just be nicer when giving criticism in LOOC. I didn't appeal it because I knew that something like that would never happened again, and it never happened again. I didn't appeal it because it would make me look like an ass amd bring more attention to it, so I didn't appeal it. I didn't have any tangible proof that you despised me, just that you were being an annoying dick, so I didn't appeal it.

I've already learned from the mistake before the punishment was applied, which I admitted extensively yet you immediately jumped the gun and decided that a permaban and me having to type up a fucking essay's worth of text is the best course of action. It wastes my time. It wastes your time. It's degrading as fuck because your "well we're giving you time to reflect on what you've done" is what you do to children who misbehave and not adults who make mistakes they admit making.

6 hours ago, Sharp said:

False. I maintain an in depth record of staff wrong doings. Yes, he "was talked to". A expression we use when we do not want to go in depth of the actions taken. In reality, he got a warning. There's no justification to breaking the rules, in the same way I was not immune to being punished if I've broken the rules. 

 

Use another example for your point.

I'm genuinely unsure why you're using a ban appeal when you aren't accepting of the whole ban premise. Use a staff complaint. 

Was it an actual discord warning or was it a verbal warning?

A staff complaint, I thought, was the worst course of action to take because the process will take exceptionally longer. If I made a staff complaint, the focus would be on the fact that I'm not actively apologizing or admitting wrongdoing on my part when I should be. Also the fact that Trishana skidaddled somewhere else, again, which means that this process is going to take exceptionally longer until they get back.

Maybe inactive administrators shouldn't be used for permaban requests that you except an appeal from.

4 hours ago, Coalf said:

Don't take this as a "haha got u ;)))))" post, I am simply clearing up the events which transpired.

The actual argument originated from the Lunchbox PR, where you began calling every single argument in the thread "shitposting" regardless of who posted it and how they worded it, if they were shitposts is for everyone who reads the PR to interpret, it is still in the suggestion archives.
At the time during the argument, NortonDK called you "Autistic". After this, you pointed out that this is against the rules and I gave NortonDK a strike.
After that, you kept complaining what whenever you point something out it keeps being ignored, even after NortonDK was specifically struck after you pointed out he called you autistic.
At that point, I got angry and called you "A Nini", as in my opinion you simply wished to keep the "I am the victim" train going. See image:

  Reveal hidden contents

3642f325e7.png

 

Admittedly I went off to assume a lot of things, for example, I assumed that the only reason you wanted to change AI to a 30% spawn was that you started playing borg and kept complaining about the fact that AI's keep telling you to do things, which you voice a dislike of.
Or I even accused you of only wanting to remove lunchboxes because you played a chef for a week.

After this train of thought Garn, not Aboshehab but Garn told me to "Calm down Coalf, Jesus."
Then later I was warned by Aboshehab that if this would continue, action would be taken against me.

Again this isn't a callout post but just clarification, as I was specifically named as an example of someone that has been doing much worse things than you and never get punished for it.
I am not able to provide the warning message itself as I believe I was warned specifically in the admin/mod channel to which I do not have access to.
 

This wasn't the incident I am referring to, this is just one of the many very minor incidents were you were a dick. I would've fucking straight up ignored me if you called me something other than a nini. I recall you straight up baiting me when abo told you to chill. This just so happens to be another incident where that happened.

 

3 hours ago, Scheveningen said:

I don't think we should bring up something from 6 months back that only has marginal relevance to the subject as to why an individual should be unbanned from the community. Particularly if that person has a very recent history of harassing and slandering people over OOC/LOOC/discord. 

It is not as important as the core concept of understanding that no matter who started what, every participant in a conversation is responsible for what they say and how they react to people. While yes, I am not denying that some people can be more at fault for escalating a conversation to a hostile argument, but almost every altercation does not go that way. People get mildly snippy sometimes, they banter with the force of an elbow jab just to say in their own way, "I disagree and I don't think you got the correct approach". Yet Burger's method is completely different. He gets absurdly aggressive when addressing issues. If the content of what he says gets criticized, he instantly doubles down and claims he's a target of a massive harassment conspiracy. This hasn't really changed or adapted either. He just continued to do it because the admins put up with it.

And now he says he thinks the ban was bullshit. Guess what he's gonna come back to do when he gets unbanned, then?

Keep in mind, Coalf, the difference is that an admin told you to curtail your own behavior and you haven't repeated any such behavior since then. That's a success of the administrator and you, to prevent recurring behavior out of line with the spirit of the rules. I'm seeing no positive benefit to Burger being unbanned from the server here, largely because the last response he made was 5 paragraphs full of words that had very little to do with answering Drago's question, the only part in which he did answer was a very half-hearted non-answer that didn't clarify exactly what steps he would take to improve.

Enough with your fucking stupid psychoanalysis you absolutely insufferable human being. Stop pretending to be a mod, seriously. I'm going to keep saying this every time you assume something about me, regardless of its truth (hint, it's usually always false).

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Okay so I'm really pissed off right now for several reasons. If I post a wall of text people tend to focus on the things I got wrong, rather than the things I got right. A large majority of the content that I post is largely unaddressed; only the easiest things to prove wrong or to argue. So let me do you a favor and cut the fluff and give you point forum statements and questions that I want to be acknowledged.

I want the following points to be addressed.

  • I regret my behavior on discord and I know what I will be doing to prevent future incidents from happening.
  • I regret my behavior on the forums and I will probably be avoiding them all together since I have other servers to play on with mechanism that interest me.
  • I regret my behavior on OOC and I will probably be avoiding it all together since I could just play another server if the round is boring as shit.
  • I'm sorry for any and all issues that I cause as a result of my criticisms, constructive and unconstructive, on the server.
  • I've never been banned on discord.
  • I've never been banned in game.
  • I've been banned for a total of 10 days on the forums. 3 days for racking up 3 minor warnings on the forums about behavior. 7 days for Garnacus' deal.
  • I've never been mechanically warned for my comments in OOC about end-of-round stuff.
  • I've been verbally warned once for my comments in OOC about end-of-round stuff, and this a result of an ahelp I made about someone in the middle of the round talking shit for no real reason.
  • I've been told that I'm right about the OOC comments about end-of-round stuff but I should phrase them nicer.
  • I've never been told past this ban by staff that my comments were abusive, just annoying.
  • I've received 7 total warnings in my 2 years of being here. 6 were minor, 1 was major. Out of those minor warnings, 1 was about mistreating other players.
  • I have never went out of my way to specifically target and berate the people messing up as antag.

I want the following questions to be answered.

  • Why was a permaban necessary?
  • If a permaban was necessary, why was it chosen over something like a lesser time-based ban?
  • Why wasn't I asked any questions by the people handling the complaint, during the complaint?
  • Why was the ban handled by a seriously inactive administrator?
  • With exception to this permaban, how come none of my OOC criticisms didn't receive any sort of punishment?
  • Was Shev's history every considered at any point at all when they made the complaint?
  • Which information in Shev's complaint was a factor in my ban?

There will probably be more questions and statements to be made. At this point, with how long this has been going, and no progress being made, it might've been better not to make an appeal at all so I'm just to ask everything in point form for now on.

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Additional points. These are quite sensitive because I don't want to imply that I should be treated differently because I was staff here, but I think it's important to get rid of this stupid meme that was even mentioned in the ban request that I hate the community.

  • I have contributed over 100 PRs to the server. On some days I have spent 100% of my free time developing for Aurora.
  • I have made several well-liked overhauls of code and maps, including major overhauls to service and cargo.
  • I have made mining not-shit.
  • I have applied for dev and got accepted.

I would've not done any of this if I hated the community. I don't hate the community, I only hate a handful of players when I am reminded that they exist.

 

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Neither a verbal warning or a discord warning. First because I tend to not do verbal warnings, I prefer something is written down as proof. Second because you can't give discord warnings to staff.

I previously maintained my own database for staff members, imagine a note system for players but this one included activity, productivity, issues they had and so on for the majority of staff. Coalf had actual warnings, which became less of an issue as time went as Coalf showed improvement, could also call them strikes as they could have gotten him punished/demoted/kicked like other previous members of staff who have even been banned and removed from the team. So yes, I said Coalf is fiesty, is was a con amidst a lot of pros to his character, though I have never used that an excuse for anything, nor anything close in regards to anyone else.

 

I've never accepted my own so called immunity to the rules, even forcing a trial mod to apply a note they mentioned might be warranted for me because. I don't really accept the notion you've presented in how I've handled things.

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