Complaint against Avery (IPC) player

[SatinsPristOTD]

b]BYOND Key:[/b] SatinsPrist666

Game ID: b1O-bZRJ

Player Byond Key: Dunno.

Staff involved: Cake

Reason for complaint: (State your reason for your complaint)

To start off, let's list some characters that were involved
Borealis- SatinsPrist666
Thea-ShesTrying
Vira Bolivar- Schev
Avery- Unknown

I log on as AI for this round. Keep in mind, it's already 2:30 into the round. It's a LONG shift. Right off the bat, it's traitor. I can tell that, easily, because I was called to the Security lobby and asked to track one of the traitors (the EMT). Not much information has been gave to me, at all. In fact, I was told NOTHING up until the end of the round.

The first thing I see from this Command/IPC member Avery is:

[13:08] [Common] Avery (Chief Engineer) says, "I hope you bleed to death you piece of shit."

[13:08] [Command] Avery (Chief Engineer) says, "AI."

[13:08] [Command] Avery (Chief Engineer) says, "Core turrets."

[13:08] [Security] Borealis (AI) states, "Not on cameras at the moment."

[13:08] [Command] Borealis (AI) queries, "Lethals?"

[13:08] [Security] Vale Rigby (Security Officer) says, "Great."

[13:08] [Command] Avery (Chief Engineer) says, "Off, please."

Now tracking Borealis on camera.

Follow camera mode ended.

[13:08] [Command] Avery (Chief Engineer) says, "Need to check your core."

Now, I've just been downloaded and all of a sudden there's three people in my core on some hunt for an antag that isn't even in my core. It's the RD, the CE and ONE security officer. Already that's weird to me. Why is the CE the leader in searching for a criminal?

This round continues with a PLETHORA of bad calls from this CE. They wanted to vent the HoS's office to kill the two traitor antags. When I refused to do it because it conflicted with laws, they just tried to strip them of their crew status so I'd murder them by venting the room. When I still refused (because I was NOT TOLD the CE was acting Captain), they tried to go around my call by remotely venting the room. It was @ShesTryingthat got the CE to calm down and use N20 to handle the suspects. (Which was HIGHLY successful, might I add. The CE got "hurt" because they decided to stand behind the canister instead of calling for a borg to push it, or simply stand to the side of the canister as soon as I opened the door. THEY CHOSE TO BE THE FORE FRONT IN THIS N20 ATTACK.)

Vira( Schev) logs on and while they're getting down to the main floor, the CE and the RD are punching the traitors in the face and aiming lethal weapons at the traitors, all while cursing and insulting them. Now, the RD was a traitor, so I can't particularly fault them. But why is the CE still at the fore front of this, and why is an IPC acting like this?

Vira speaks to both Thea and Borealis (me), and realizes the CE's acting like a spoiled 12 year old that didn't get their way and that they're trying to lead security attacks with "no knowledge of security".

You can read the rest of the logs when you pull them. This CE had ATROCIOUS RP for not just an IPC, but for a command player in general. They were all for the cyborgification of crew. Wanted to murder two crew by venting them, lead the 'search' for dangerous criminals down at my core, punched people and just-- RP'd with quite a lot of anger.

I'm sure @Scheveningen and @ShesTrying have a lot more to say about this than I do. I've not asked for their IPC application to be looked in to, because I directly spoke with Kyres about the deplorable IPC RP, but I really think the COMMAND application of this player should be looked at as well.

Or at least some kind of note/warning. It was really jarring to witness this sort of command RP, and as a fulltime command/IPC player, I expect quite a bit better. Maybe my bar is too high, I don't know. Hence why I want a second opinion.

Did you attempt to adminhelp the issue at the time? If so, what was the known action taken by administration/moderation? Yes, Cake said to make a complaint.

Approximate Date/Time: 6/18/2019 around 10amCST

[Scheveningen]

There are oftentimes situations in rounds where things blow themselves out of proportion that your character isn't equipped to handle, even if you on the OOC level is objectively capable of handling it well, not all characters are created equal. Even then, sometimes issues have such complexity and implications of pressure behind them, and that particular detail creates a large variance in how situations are dealt with depending on the mood and how easy someone is to frustrate.

For the sake of example, I'll begrudgingly talk about myself for a minute and how I view this. There are specific archetypes of behavior that my characters tend to be founded on. There's often very little to a lot of variance depending on the character, their adaptability and their personality; in addition to the severity of the situation. One character I play is stoic to almost a fault where they're expected to react with some degree of humanity... but oftentimes they just don't. It becomes difficult to distinguish them from a robot apart from seeing the obvious organic bits. There are cases where they have certain weaknesses in their usual stone cold personality, but I'd say 80% of the time... they're a rock wall. And that's just one example of a character. I don't just motivate myself to try to uphold a standard for a character in that regard, I do. I try to think, at least in the in-character sense, of the example I want to set for others, and not just doing it for myself so that I feel comfortable.

Not everybody can be exactly me, though, nor can I always be me or even who I want to be, if that makes any sense. Having a sense of roleplaying fiber is something I find difficult to uphold oftentimes because I don't only get moods to play a stoic character, but sometimes I want to play just to play, and have some silly fun on occasion. And if I might let on a little secret, sometimes it's really fun to get really mad. Only sometimes. I feel guilty about participating in that later, though, as uncommon as I partake in that for some level of catharsis.

Onto the actual round. There's not a lot I can say beyond saying, "I'd prefer not to see the same behavior repeat the way it did." Improvement is something I strive for, personally. And I define 'improvement' as not 'to be better' but rather, to be 'less bad than I was yesterday.'

And that's something to keep in mind in regards to this complaint, at least. There is certainly a lot the player Avery could've done better or even just flat out differently and perhaps a little more interestingly as a result. It's hard to execute what you want sometimes, so often Occam's Razor invokes itself and you take what comes easiest to you as an option. Issue with Occam's Razor is that it is a gamble, and with gambles you often lose. By lose I mean "not winning" and by "not winning" I mean "getting disapproval for how you roleplayed in a round." Something to consider, at least. Keep in mind too that pratfalls in decision-making are very human and understandable, and often expected when you act without 100% assurance that something will go the way you want it to. I feel that while the behavior from the player during this round was quite ostentatious even within context, they're good examples of behavior that could be improved upon.

In that regard, I would hope that's considered. The opportunity to improve. "To not suck as much as you did yesterday." So I hope nothing drastic gets done on the admin side of things but I suppose I wouldn't be surprised, but I would be disappointed.

[Cnaym]

11 hours ago, SatinsPristOTD said:

You can read the rest of the logs when you pull them. This CE had ATROCIOUS RP for not just an IPC, but for a command player in general. They were all for the cyborgification of crew. Wanted to murder two crew by venting them, lead the 'search' for dangerous criminals down at my core, punched people and just-- RP'd with quite a lot of anger.

Wrong. I played the RD and got taitored pretty late so i abused the chaos to push command over the brink. We met near the core by accident since an ion storm was announced and telecoms where down -> Which she repaired down there. At that point the officer was protection since the entire station was hell for command and the CMO was taken hostage before and infected with a deadly virus which was a pretty stressfull situation to say the least. The one pushing for borgification was I as RD. Also the aiming a loaded revolver at detained criminals. Avery stated three times that she only though one of them should get borged and that the other one not -> Which was ignored

Again i used the entire thing to attack Thea on an emotional level and bring to command to a complete standstill which worked easily. Why? Because HoP and HoS had no information on what was going on and reacted purely on a best guess basis. I even ordered officers to leave me alone with the detained criminals, beat ones leg with a crowbar and so on. All but one officer wandered off which i used to frame the entire sec department as idiots.... IC

11 hours ago, SatinsPristOTD said:

Vira speaks to both Thea and Borealis (me), and realizes the CE's acting like a spoiled 12 year old that didn't get their way and that they're trying to lead security attacks with "no knowledge of security".

She stated multiple times that she did not want that and had no clue how to do it. For a command member with IC no clue on sec she pretty much RPed a great, yet desperate try to get things back under controle.

11 hours ago, SatinsPristOTD said:

Now, I've just been downloaded and all of a sudden there's three people in my core on some hunt for an antag that isn't even in my core. It's the RD, the CE and ONE security officer. Already that's weird to me. Why is the CE the leader in searching for a criminal?

Not leading a search, CE was the only one unarmed and there to repair the comms. Again -> You did not see what happened nor know what we did down there, this is purely guessing.

 

11 hours ago, SatinsPristOTD said:

Now, the RD was a traitor, so I can't particularly fault them. But why is the CE still at the fore front of this, and why is an IPC acting like this?

Why not? It was the main aspect of my taitore idea. I knew Avery and Thea pretty good IC, even used stuff from previous rounds to get both to break and it worked realy great. There's no reason for you to asume that the CE did anything that i did. I aimed a gun at them, i beat them with a crowbar. CE did not even carry a gun nor aim one, CE made one barehanded punch to the face after she got taunted a lot. They made fun of us for not acting, i blamed command for not beeing able to decide. All in all it was great to create chaos and if you got OOC exhausted by all of this... imagine how it would be IC

11 hours ago, SatinsPristOTD said:

I'm sure @Scheveningen and @ShesTrying have a lot more to say about this than I do. I've not asked for their IPC application to be looked in to, because I directly spoke with Kyres about the deplorable IPC RP, but I really think the COMMAND application of this player should be looked at as well.

Or at least some kind of note/warning. It was really jarring to witness this sort of command RP, and as a fulltime command/IPC player, I expect quite a bit better. Maybe my bar is too high, I don't know. Hence why I want a second opinion.

This is one of two reasons why i decided to write something. As command members we often get the roughest roles of the round. We drive a story while having the biggest target on our backs. I'm all for accountability but please make sure to get the facts correct before calling someones whitelists to get checked. Talk to people OOC, try to find out what happened from their perspektive... all in all we all do some stuff that's good and a lot more that is bad. I see why this round riled up many people IC and OOC. Avery was no antag that round, but if any of you want a demonstration on how much a mental attack can fuck up your shift i'm happy to deliver  Conclusion for me from all of this -> We should OOC work together to make the rounds fun, not write miles of text on forums without adding all sides to the discussion... and we should never ask for punishment.

8 hours ago, Scheveningen said:

In that regard, I would hope that's considered. The opportunity to improve. "To not suck as much as you did yesterday." So I hope nothing drastic gets done on the admin side of things but I suppose I wouldn't be surprised, but I would be disappointed.

This should be the mentality of all of us. We play to have fun and improve in RP. To make the game enjoyable for the playerbase and not for single persons. Autotraitor is more often than not a total mess and that could be a lot easier with a command that has at least OOC a united goal -> Fun

Harsh punishments would block our ability to experiment with our characters. All of this could have been handled in an IR. Would have loved to see all sides sit down and try to clear this mess IC.

[SatinsPristOTD]

13 hours ago, Cnaym said:

Not leading a search, CE was the only one unarmed and there to repair the comms. Again -> You did not see what happened nor know what we did down there, this is purely guessing. 

 

 

They went DIRECTLY INTO MY CORE, which is not near the comms section. The comms section sits outside of the download area. There were open blind spots, that I warned her about, and yet she still went in (unarmed) to hunt down the antag.

 

13 hours ago, Cnaym said:

This is one of two reasons why i decided to write something. As command members we often get the roughest roles of the round. We drive a story while having the biggest target on our backs. I'm all for accountability but please make sure to get the facts correct before calling someones whitelists to get checked. Talk to people OOC, try to find out what happened from their perspektive... all in all we all do some stuff that's good and a lot more that is bad.

 

This is, literally, what the complaint is about. Finding out the facts and truth to behind what happened. No, I am not talking in OOC to people about how I think their RP is bad. It clutters OOC and admins will tell you to shut up and do a forum post on it. I don't know who plays Avery. I could care less, in all honesty.

For some reason, you take a GREAT concern to a complaint, which is exactly what I was TOLD to do and what I'm SUPPOSE to do if I find RP to be poor and questionable.

 

13 hours ago, Cnaym said:

 Avery was no antag that round, but if any of you want a demonstration on how much a mental attack can fuck up your shift i'm happy to deliver

I'm at a general loss for this thinking. A mental attack OOCly or ICly? If the game is bothering your mental state OOCly, you need to learn to step back, and command players should really understand that thinking. Do not make your RP poor because you continue to place yourself in a situation that is harming to your mental health.

If you mean their mental attack ICly, THEY'RE AN IPC.

[SatinsPristOTD]

14 hours ago, Cnaym said:

All of this could have been handled in an IR. Would have loved to see all sides sit down and try to clear this mess IC.

Also, no, it can't. I'm the AI. AI's can't make IR's. This is my complaint, not a human characters complaint.

[kyres1]

Given I haven't warned them for their IPC play before, and also given it was a stressful round it seems, I decided to excuse the IPC behavior specifically of the round.

What I told DasFox was,

Quote

then all ill say is that NT wouldnt permit a robot with a whack emulator to be a chief engineer

the rule for erratic behavior is universal and i can not make exceptions in the regard of canon happenings

otherwise its not fair to anybody

Quote

i can understand a stressful round

just try to keep erratic and unpredictable behavior to a minimum and if you want to go around the rule for whatever reason outside of being an antagonist just message me and ill guide you through it

 

[Cnaym]

22 hours ago, Scheveningen said:

There are oftentimes situations in rounds where things blow themselves out of proportion that your character isn't equipped to handle, even if you on the OOC level is objectively capable of handling it well, not all characters are created equal.

Think this explains it a lot better than i managed.

46 minutes ago, SatinsPristOTD said:

If you mean their mental attack ICly, THEY'RE AN IPC.

I mean that you can break IPCs. It's not as easy as humans, but IPCs are not without personality, agency or morality. They have priorities, the have opinions -> They can be manipulated and broken. I did this to HoPs, RDs, CMOs, and CE IPCs. I have yet to meet an IPC player who follows the "I am a perfectly programmed mashine" concept to the point. If they wanted to play uncaring calculators they'd go for the borg role.

 

50 minutes ago, SatinsPristOTD said:

They went DIRECTLY INTO MY CORE, which is not near the comms section. The comms section sits outside of the download area. There were open blind spots, that I warned her about, and yet she still went in (unarmed) to hunt down the antag.

Avery is known to be unable to handle weapons. It's part of her. Going into a dangerous situation like this carefree is pretty much part of her.

That's all from my side. Unless someone handling this complaint has questions toward me i'm out of this. Would suggest to scrap it as a messy round and be done with it.

[Yonnimer]

Hi, myself and @Goret will be taking this. Give us a bit to look over it and all that.

[Flamingo]

I will be taking over for @Yonnimer.

 

@Goretand I will be reviewing the logs for the next couple days. I encourage those involved to say their piece. If you are not involved, please do not post. Cheers. 

[Goret]

Hello, staff team again. Just making sure they even know this thing exist. @TheSleepyCatmom

[TheSleepyCatmom]

>gets PM'd 4 times by different staff to make sure I know

>confirm I know

>get @ 'd on the complaint itself.

 

Yes I know it exists. I just didn't have anything else to add to it.

[Goret]

I couldn't know that unless you posted. But thanks, anyways.

[Flamingo]

Alright sorry for the delays - going over logs is very time consuming and very mentally draining. Goret and I have nevertheless persisted and come to a conclusion on the matter. I will give a brief list of each point below for ease of reference:

 

1. It was actually their preferred course of action to use teargas grenades at the HoS' office and they were in the process of trying to get sec to do so when sec asked to just vent the room to force the traitors to surrender in order to avoid more damage. If they had jumped to this conclusion by themselves at the first sign of trouble then it would have been an issue, but it was something that came up later, and a better alternative was suggested anyways. We can't reasonably expect everyone to have every trick up their sleeve (N2O is rarely utilized after all and doesn't always come to mind immediately). 

2. They didn't push for the cyborgification of both traitors. They only agreed for one of them it was probably okay, and the other they disagreed with. This is an acceptable form of punishment under regs, so we didn't really see an issue here. 

3. They only punched someone in the face once after they were arrested, and after much taunting, and they were also not armed. They accepted charges when confronted about it. 

4. Their being down in the AI core doesn't really matter, since they are authorized to be there, were unarmed, and initially went down to investigate after much sabotage had taken place. This one is the most difficult to determine through the logs but we didn't find any evidence of foul intent here and thus we deemed it fine. 

 

I think a lot of this complaint stems from the lack of information brought on by only having access to the radio and limited vision via cameras. Overall, while their IPC RP was not entirely up to snuff, it was a pretty stressful round, and the issues were addressed by the relevant parties (namely @kyres1, as they mentioned they spoke to them about the IPC play issues). A lot of their play would have been more acceptable had they been a stress-prone human, and thus we don't feel it requires additional action by administration. 

I think I have addressed all of the issues. I will be locking and archiving this in 24 hours if there are no objections. Feel free to contact me or @Goret directly if either party have further questions and don't wish to post here.

 

Cheers. 

[Flamingo]

Locking and Archiving.