Implement Combat module for Malf

[Kaed]

It hasn't really occurred to me that the Malf AI round type sort of got shafted by the removal of security borgs.  In our haste to protect antags from the evils of security validborgs, we kind of took away the only combat potential possessed by malf AIs.

Imagine trying to take someone prisoner with a engineering borg who can only weakly crowbar someone while being flashspammed to death or a janitorial borg, who could mop someone or make them slip once if they weren't paying attention.

So, I propose some sort of malf-only module available to hacked malf-slaved borgs that is capable of combat, taking prisoners, and otherwise defending their AI master with some actual effectiveness.

[MattAtlas]

I think combat borgs are too much for malf but security borgs would be fine.

[Chada1]

Unless something changed, Malf already has access to the Combat override. It's the only way to play a Combat 'borg ATM.

[ben10083]

2 hours ago, Chada1 said:

Unless something changed, Malf already has access to the Combat override. It's the only way to play a Combat 'borg ATM.

Basically this. Also lads combat module isnt that op, malf should be able to use it (in the small chance it somehow was removed)

[Doxxmedearly]

It's still there.

[Kaed]

How, then? I'm not aware of that being an ability.

[sonicgotnuked]

2 hours ago, Kaed said:

How, then? I'm not aware of that being an ability.

While it is possible for malf to give its borg the combat module. It requires it to set the code to delta via the elite encryption hack.

 

Yeah, let's still give this an option to the malf, but it would have a combat specific module it can give. I would also like to see traitor borgs have this ability too if possible because the removal of the sec borg made traitor borgs weak as hell. (Which I somewhat fixed a little by allowing them overclock)

[Nantei]

I am for removing things from the elite encryption hack. Although I play malf almost never, going to Delta should probably be specifically because you want to use the nuke, not to unlock a bunch of goodies. If you hate the nuke meme, making it so malfs don't have to get it to unlock other things seems like a good step to take. Especially since a common complaint is how you can do absolutely nothing during it.

Why not attach it to Overclocking? Makes a lot more thematic sense.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Nantei

[Chada1]

It might be better to just give the regular modules some malf tools akin to the emag tools. Electric Arms (Basically a special stunbaton for Construction and Engineering) and some zipties wire ties would cut it for most of them. All the Security module really had of value for a malf AI was the handcuffs and stunbaton.
Through this, Traitor 'borgs would also get basically a stunbaton and a handcuffing method.

This would also enable a malf AI's 'borgs to not be clearly compromised while using these tools.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Chada1

[Carver]

12 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

It might be better to just give the regular modules some malf tools akin to the emag tools. Electric Arms (Basically a special stunbaton for Construction and Engineering) and some zipties wire ties would cut it for most of them. All the Security module really had of value for a malf AI was the handcuffs and stunbaton.
Through this, Traitor 'borgs would also get basically a stunbaton and a handcuffing method.

This would also enable a malf AI's 'borgs to not be clearly compromised while using these tools.

It's unfortunate that a majority of times I've seen malfs use their borgs to apprehend people, it was just to drag them into laser turrets. For that alone I say; "Keep the zappies to Construction/Engineering and let them be more creative with the other tools they have."

[Chada1]

8 minutes ago, Carver said:

It's unfortunate that a majority of times I've seen malfs use their borgs to apprehend people, it was just to drag them into laser turrets. For that alone I say; "Keep the zappies to Construction/Engineering and let them be more creative with the other tools they have."

Not to argue with your statement or anything but worth clearing a possible misunderstanding, from what I said, at the least the Electric Arm zappies need to be given to the other modules too, so they at least get a stunbaton. (The point of this thread is to arm traitor and malf 'borgs afterall)

But it should definitely be locked behind being hacked either via emag, traitor 'borg, or the malf 'hack 'borg' ability.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Chada1

[Carver]

4 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

Not to argue with your statement or anything but worth clearing a possible misunderstanding, from what I said, at the least the Electric Arm zappies need to be given to the other modules too, so they at least get a stunbaton. (The point of this thread is to arm traitor and malf 'borgs afterall)

But it should definitely be locked behind being hacked either via emag, traitor 'borg, or the malf 'hack 'borg' ability.

And I disagreed with giving them to other modules. Especially in regard to other modules often already having methods to disable people that require more creative application (syringes/rags/lube), or simply being modules not designed for overt activities (clerical.. really, just the clerical that possesses a chameleon stamp).

[Chada1]

6 minutes ago, Carver said:

And I disagreed with giving them to other modules. Especially in regard to other modules often already having methods to disable people that require more creative application (syringes/rags/lube), or simply being modules not designed for overt activities (clerical.. really, just the clerical that possesses a chameleon stamp).

The problem with this is that there are only really two-three 'borgs per round, so when they are Antags we kinda need them to have the tools to do their thing. It's not like they can pick up new tools to use, so limiting them like that could actually be p. negative for the round progression in rounds where they're the primary Antagonists. For instance, it's believable that any 'borg that's not operating normally could shock someone on touch, but instead we'd have Mining/Service and other 'borgs being forced to *kill you* than disable you non-lethally and then weld you into something or other means of disabling. This'll lead p. much to 'borgs being forced to take people out of the round even when it doesn't call for it, or they'll be destroyed.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Chada1

[Carver]

4 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

The problem with this is that there are only really two-three 'borgs per round, so when they are Antags we kinda need them to have the tools to do their thing. It's not like they can pick up new tools to use, so limiting them like that could actually be p. negative for the round progression in rounds where they're the primary Antagonists. For instance, it's believable that any 'borg that's not operating normally could shock someone on touch, but instead we'd have Mining/Service and other 'borgs being forced to *kill you* than disable you non-lethally and then weld you into something or other means of disabling. This'll lead p. much to 'borgs being forced to take people out of the round even when it doesn't call for it, or they'll be destroyed.

Service borg can soak a rag in chloral, Mining borg already has electrified arms, it's solely the clerical module that has 0 method and frankly if there's a clerical module (these things are rarer than clowns) you can be doing cheekier things with paperwork. Alternatively, clerical modules could simply change module.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Carver
Note: Clerical module has a flash, it's simply that flashes have been nerfed into being moderately useless. These are the side effects people don't take into account over the years.

[Chada1]

7 minutes ago, Carver said:

Service borg can soak a rag in chloral, Mining borg already has electrified arms, it's solely the clerical module that has 0 method and frankly if there's a clerical module (these things are rarer than clowns) you can be doing cheekier things with paperwork. Alternatively, clerical modules could simply change module.

Choosing the wrong modules to contrast doesn't invalidate my point any, tho.

Custodial, Clerical, and Service both would have looots of issues subduing anybody without killing them, even then. The rag example (Soaking it in chloral/other things) would work if you could keep your opponent down without already doing enough damage to p. much kill them. The point here really is that there are 2-3 'borgs. If Sec 'borgs removal makes Antag 'borgs so much weaker, all it takes is giving them the pivotal tools that the Sec 'borg had, but lock it behind being an Antag. Cuffs/Stunbaton.

There's also the argument that subduing players via Chloral and other drugs is Really anti-fun for that player, since it's instant and fully takes them out of the round.

It's really not a big deal to give an Antag-locked Stunbaton to most Modules even if you exclude the cuffs, or make it to where they can make cuffs with their inbuilt wire manually and grasp it, I guess.

Remember, 2-3 'borgs per round. They are limited and do not scale to the rounds population, they need to be capable of a lot and not have to rely on their inbuilt tools for All of their antaggery, afterall other traitors aren't, are they? A normal traitor is capable of using TC to summon any equipment they need. A 'borg traitor can hack and overclock itself, which is a rooough equivalent, but gives barely even a quarter of the same amount.And you will have more general Traitors in a round than you will 'borgs. In that sense it's kinda important that when a 'borg goes Antag it can have the impact it needs to have irregardless of what inbuilt tools they have when they're not an Antag.

[Carver]

1 minute ago, Chada1 said:

Custodial, Clerical, and Service both would have looots of issues subduing anybody without killing them, even then. The rag example (Soaking it in chloral/other things) would work if you could keep your opponent down without already doing enough damage to p. much kill them. The point here really is that there are 2-3 'borgs. If Sec 'borgs removal makes Antag 'borgs so much weaker, all it takes is giving them the pivotal tools that the Sec 'borg had, but lock it behind being an Antag. Cuffs/Stunbaton.

To which I say, the other modules don't need these buffs. Malf in particular does not need these buffs.

4 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

There's also the argument that subduing players via Chloral and other drugs is Really anti-fun for that player, since it's instant and fully takes them out of the round.

Ah, because stuncuff is so very different.

6 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

Remember, 2-3 'borgs per round. They are limited and do not scale to the rounds population, they need to be capable of a lot and not have to rely on their inbuilt tools for All of their antaggery, afterall other traitors aren't, are they? A normal traitor is capable of using TC to summon any equipment they need. A 'borg traitor can hack and overclock itself, which is a rooough equivalent, but gives barely even a quarter of the same amount.And you will have more general Traitors in a round than you will 'borgs. In that sense it's kinda important that when a 'borg goes Antag it can have the impact it needs to have irregardless of what inbuilt tools they have when they're not an Antag.

Traitor borgs have more tools than you give them credit for, as do malf. Gases/atmospherics, door controls, airlocks, power. They have, essentially, built-in all-access and the ability to remotely control the station's systems to a greater extent than any traitor.

[Carver]

1 minute ago, Chada1 said:

Custodial, Clerical, and Service both would have looots of issues subduing anybody without killing them, even then. The rag example (Soaking it in chloral/other things) would work if you could keep your opponent down without already doing enough damage to p. much kill them. The point here really is that there are 2-3 'borgs. If Sec 'borgs removal makes Antag 'borgs so much weaker, all it takes is giving them the pivotal tools that the Sec 'borg had, but lock it behind being an Antag. Cuffs/Stunbaton.

To which I say, the other modules don't need these buffs. Malf in particular does not need these buffs.

4 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

There's also the argument that subduing players via Chloral and other drugs is Really anti-fun for that player, since it's instant and fully takes them out of the round.

Ah, because stuncuff is so very different.

6 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

Remember, 2-3 'borgs per round. They are limited and do not scale to the rounds population, they need to be capable of a lot and not have to rely on their inbuilt tools for All of their antaggery, afterall other traitors aren't, are they? A normal traitor is capable of using TC to summon any equipment they need. A 'borg traitor can hack and overclock itself, which is a rooough equivalent, but gives barely even a quarter of the same amount.And you will have more general Traitors in a round than you will 'borgs. In that sense it's kinda important that when a 'borg goes Antag it can have the impact it needs to have irregardless of what inbuilt tools they have when they're not an Antag.

Traitor borgs have more tools than you give them credit for, as do malf. Gases/atmospherics, door controls, airlocks, power. They have, essentially, built-in all-access and the ability to remotely control the station's systems to a greater extent than any traitor.

[Chada1]

6 minutes ago, Carver said:

Ah, because stuncuff is so very different.

Yes, it is, because you can actually talk.

[Carver]

15 minutes ago, Chada1 said:

Yes, it is, because you can actually talk.

And yet you're dragged off helplessly either way.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Carver
On that note: You could talk with pre-nerf flashes, something all stationbounds had. Remember those?

[Chada1]

3 hours ago, Carver said:

And yet you're dragged off helplessly either way.

Not persay, Chloral and other methods are still stronger (Even if completely antifun) in this situation, if using an Antag-variant stunbaton they'd have the chance to escape. It's not like you're knocked down in one hit.

3 hours ago, Carver said:

Traitor borgs have more tools than you give them credit for, as do malf. Gases/atmospherics, door controls, airlocks, power. They have, essentially, built-in all-access and the ability to remotely control the station's systems to a greater extent than any traitor.

I agree with you on the all-access thing. But it's extremely less useful for 'borgs compared to regular traitors do to the scope of interaction they have with items, still. Also: On the note of Atmospherics. No. You don't touch Atmospherics or you risk accidentally ganking people, it's the equivalent of setting off a bomb.

3 hours ago, Carver said:

To which I say, the other modules don't need these buffs. Malf in particular does not need these buffs.

Yes it does, Malf more than ANYTHING requires a way to non-lethally detain people. It can't have a hostage situation without it, which is what the Security 'borg was usually used for in that mode. As it stands, it can use Combat, but you know the funny thing about Combat that made me want it removed more than anyone else and outright refuse to play it? It has NO NON-LETHAL TOOLS AT ALL. I know, it's ridiculous. A combat module without even a taser? But that's how it is. It was literally designed to kill and nothing else. I don't want to mirror that with other 'borgs just because me and Paradox decided we wanted to remove Security 'borgs.

In like... most cases, if a 'borg intended to kill you, they'd have better weapons to do it, especially for Medical, Construction, Engineering, and Service. Service can dump alcohol on you and ignite you with a lighter, Engineering can burn your face off with a welder or stab your eyes with a screwdriver, construction can do what Engineering can do except better while also deconstructing the floor you're under so you fall 42853767 feet. Medical can saw your face off with a circular saw. If they wanted to kill you, they have better options. What they don't necessarily have are generic non-lethal means. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Chada1
Also don't forget that Malf has to buy your emag tools via hacking you.

[Carver]

5 hours ago, Chada1 said:

Not persay, Chloral and other methods are still stronger (Even if completely antifun) in this situation, if using an Antag-variant stunbaton they'd have the chance to escape. It's not like you're knocked down in one hit.

The slow from the pain is more or less a guaranteed down against anyone who lacks a flash on-hand. That is to say; everyone but Command, Security and Robotics.

5 hours ago, Chada1 said:

I agree with you on the all-access thing. But it's extremely less useful for 'borgs compared to regular traitors do to the scope of interaction they have with items, still. Also: On the note of Atmospherics. No. You don't touch Atmospherics or you risk accidentally ganking people, it's the equivalent of setting off a bomb.

And yet a bomb is a perfectly valid antagonistic tool when used well. If Jimmy Dipshit walks through the firelock into the room filled with sleeping gas, that's not my problem.

5 hours ago, Chada1 said:

Yes it does, Malf more than ANYTHING requires a way to non-lethally detain people. It can't have a hostage situation without it, which is what the Security 'borg was usually used for in that mode. As it stands, it can use Combat, but you know the funny thing about Combat that made me want it removed more than anyone else and outright refuse to play it? It has NO NON-LETHAL TOOLS AT ALL. I know, it's ridiculous. A combat module without even a taser? But that's how it is. It was literally designed to kill and nothing else. I don't want to mirror that with other 'borgs just because me and Paradox decided we wanted to remove Security 'borgs.

Malf has ways. Shock someone and drag them off, gas them (refer to my above response), sedate them and remove their legs. I never saw the Security module used for kidnapping as much as gunning people down in the hallways with lasers, seeing as the Engineering-oriented modules are better for it (blocking entrances off to prevent hostiles breaching into the hostage room). Above all, I'm very hesitant to buff any antagonist that has a button which instantly kills people (APC boom boom) as it overall may give them far too much power.

As for Combat having no lethal tools, that is incorrect. Shooting someone into paincrit is a valid method of subduing as burns can be easily treated, wholly non-lethal if your stationbounds know exactly what they're doing. The threat of lethal force is also often enough to kidnap most crew.

Though, now that we're going off of that information:

• Engineering modules are capable of zoning and trapping via their construction abilities and being more effective overall at locking down areas.
• Medical modules, if not using syringes, can saw off your limbs and keep you alive. Or in the case of Rescue, knock you flat with a fire extinguisher.
• The service module amusingly has the hardest time disabling via force as fire is incredibly ineffective, whilst knives and the like are fairly non-threatening (though a hatchet to the foot will still do OKAY-ish), and should be combined with applying a rag after downing them. I guess you could smack them upside the head with a rolling pin.
• Research module is effectively a more offensive medical module that lacks being able to heal as effectively, in exchange for being able to apply chemicals far more effectively. Works great in coordination with a medical unit. It can also heal the other units.
• Droideka, as mentioned, can simply laser someone into a heavy slowdown or paincrit; alternatively threatening ranged lethal force.
• The oft-forgotten Syndicate module, which I wouldn't mind being available to traitor stationbounds and not malfs, has a myriad of tools to subdue people in varying ways. The SMG is not the one I'd recommend for it.

In short; un-nerf flashes and you don't even need to bother with the more advanced methods, as every module has a flash.

[Kaed]

4 hours ago, Carver said:

The slow from the pain is more or less a guaranteed down against anyone who lacks a flash on-hand. That is to say; everyone but Command, Security and Robotics.

And yet a bomb is a perfectly valid antagonistic tool when used well. If Jimmy Dipshit walks through the firelock into the room filled with sleeping gas, that's not my problem.

Malf has ways. Shock someone and drag them off, gas them (refer to my above response), sedate them and remove their legs. I never saw the Security module used for kidnapping as much as gunning people down in the hallways with lasers, seeing as the Engineering-oriented modules are better for it (blocking entrances off to prevent hostiles breaching into the hostage room). Above all, I'm very hesitant to buff any antagonist that has a button which instantly kills people (APC boom boom) as it overall may give them far too much power.

As for Combat having no lethal tools, that is incorrect. Shooting someone into paincrit is a valid method of subduing as burns can be easily treated, wholly non-lethal if your stationbounds know exactly what they're doing. The threat of lethal force is also often enough to kidnap most crew.

Though, now that we're going off of that information:

• Engineering modules are capable of zoning and trapping via their construction abilities and being more effective overall at locking down areas.
• Medical modules, if not using syringes, can saw off your limbs and keep you alive. Or in the case of Rescue, knock you flat with a fire extinguisher.
• The service module amusingly has the hardest time disabling via force as fire is incredibly ineffective, whilst knives and the like are fairly non-threatening (though a hatchet to the foot will still do OKAY-ish), and should be combined with applying a rag after downing them. I guess you could smack them upside the head with a rolling pin.
• Research module is effectively a more offensive medical module that lacks being able to heal as effectively, in exchange for being able to apply chemicals far more effectively. Works great in coordination with a medical unit. It can also heal the other units.
• Droideka, as mentioned, can simply laser someone into a heavy slowdown or paincrit; alternatively threatening ranged lethal force.
• The oft-forgotten Syndicate module, which I wouldn't mind being available to traitor stationbounds and not malfs, has a myriad of tools to subdue people in varying ways. The SMG is not the one I'd recommend for it.

In short; un-nerf flashes and you don't even need to bother with the more advanced methods, as every module has a flash.

You have a very perplexing idea of balance, if your idea of 'viable nonlethal options' involves lasering someone into paincrit, shoving a cloth of chloral into someone's face, or building a wall to keep someone from escaping.  And your 'solution' is to bring back an utterly broken mechanic that was removed for very good reasons to fix a lack of viable borg capture options.

So let me put it down for you in an easy to understand way:

All of this shit you listed off takes time, effort, and a lack of meta-gaming threat detection that neither the borg nor their victim is guaranteed to possess.  By contrast, everyone with a flash can instantly disable any non-overclocked borg, and the RD can lock them down or blow them up remotely (being hacked doesn't seem to be a defense against that, I had a hacked borg detonated through means I am unclear on last malf round).  The power is INCREDIBLY stilted against the synthetics right now.  They need to regain some options for simple objective resolution they didn't have before (or used to have), instead of being told they have to make do with playing 'hard mode' while Secman McBumblefuck can singlehandedly kill them with a flash and baton combo with zero way to fight back.

Also, maybe remove the flash stunlock and just make it blind them like everyone else, along with tucking away their current equipped tools....

Edited November 5, 2019 by Kaed

[Carver]

Because we surely need to have flashes be entirely worthless and to rely on the singular ion rifle for everything. Nerf them further and may as well just pull off your pants and bend over whenever it's malf.

[Kaed]

2 hours ago, Carver said:

Because we surely need to have flashes be entirely worthless and to rely on the singular ion rifle for everything. Nerf them further and may as well just pull off your pants and bend over whenever it's malf.

If you think it's required to be able to stunlock people, and that blinding them and taking away their ability to use tools quickly without reselecting them is worthless, then I think you might be on the wrong server. We're trying to move away from gameplay like that.

If you want to recapture the spirit of being flash cuffed every time you're not a role that has sunglasses, go try baystation 12. They're still using that mechanic, and they've got a pretty cool spaceship map.

That being said, if there was a way to make there be a cool-down between stuns with the Flash, like they can't be stunned again until a minute later, instead of just being able to be flashed spammed forever until they die, that would also work. Like, give them an emergency visual sensor setting that limits their vision temporarily (sort of how a welding mask works), but also makes them immune to flashes during that period.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Kaed

[Peppermint]

Please no. Anything that makes malf AI even more obnoxious and frustrating to play against can take a long walk off a short cliff. Good malf AI players already have enough tools to create a good or interesting gimmick. We really don't need anything more for the bad ones to abuse.