Nerf the stun talisman

[Nantei]

This has been bothering me for a good while now. The stun talisman is probably one of the strongest, most easily accessible stuns in the game, and it belongs to a cooperative antagonist that expends basically zero resources to get and use it. 

This bad boy stuns, blinds, deafens, and mutes you all for the low, low cost of a single piece of paper. It affects everyone, there's no protection from it apart from being part of the cult. Why? Even vampire glare isn't this bad, and vampire is often a solo endeavor who will usually have a dramatically less intrusive affect on your round. 

So here is the suggestion: Keep the blind, maybe keep the mute, there are tons of ways to stun someone that are much more fair than the stun rune, and a cooperative antagonist absolutely does not need something so powerful in their kit for so cheap.

The only other way I can think to make this frustrating piece of paper fair is to add an actual cost to imbuing it akin to blood.

[NewOriginalSchwann]

Something as strong as the stun talisman has no place being as cheap as it is in a team antagonist. It's a one-hit stun that's long enough to cuff, gag, and de-headset a person with. It has absolutely no place in a game that's trying to move away from one-hit KO combat. Honestly, it has no place at all as it presently stands. A stun baton takes 3-4 hits to down somebody and this takes one (1) hit, then you're dragged off to a forcible D&D session as conceptualized by Chick Tracts (I mean you should have backup, but it's just going to result in the cultist bringing two instant-stun runes). Please wipe this accursed ability from the face of the Earth.

[MattAtlas]

Holdover from tg that cult doesn't need at all to function. Get rid of it imo

[Carver]

This item alone is one of the main reasons I argue against baton nerfs.

[GreenBoi]

Cult will always need a stun for conversion, if they don't have one inbuilt, they will get one themselves. We should reduce how long the talisman lasts, last time I got stunned by one, I think it lasted around 8 seconds? It could just last 3, or enough for a cuff.

[Nantei]

4 hours ago, GreenBoi said:

Cult will always need a stun for conversion, if they don't have one inbuilt, they will get one themselves.

Your argument self defeats. That's exactly what they should be doing. Other stun methods are far more fair and require far more effort. Cult is a group antagonist, they do not need extremely overpowered stuns to function, they have numbers.

[Butterrobber202]

I absolutely do not want the mute removed. Because you know Tits McGee is going to scream bloody murder and reveal the cult at the 0:13 mark when they get stunned.

[Carver]

19 minutes ago, Butterrobber202 said:

I absolutely do not want the mute removed. Because you know Tits McGee is going to scream bloody murder and reveal the cult at the 0:13 mark when they get stunned.

Have you considered not effortlessly stunning someone 13 minutes into the game, likely just after they've finished getting ready from round start?

[Brutishcrab51]

Keep the blindness. Keep the muteness. But not for as long.

 

You can aggressive-grab in half a second and cover someone's mouth, which pins them down and keeps them from talking. The talisman can put them down for at least half a second. Maybe two or three, but not five or eight. It should give the cultists an opportunity to act quickly, while not 100% ensuring they can drag off their target using one piece of paper for a DnD session.

[Nantei]

4 hours ago, Butterrobber202 said:

I absolutely do not want the mute removed. Because you know Tits McGee is going to scream bloody murder and reveal the cult at the 0:13 mark when they get stunned.

And then after being converted, Security will come up, and he will tell them everything is fine.  Also yes, if you are being exposed early, you are probably acting way too early.

[Nantei]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/7347

Bumping with a relevant PR.

This removes the stun, slightly reduced the weaken, keeps the silence and blind. Only affects the talisman, so if you can lure people into a stun rune it still works as normal.

[GreenBoi]

On 05/11/2019 at 12:53, Nantei said:

Your argument self defeats. That's exactly what they should be doing. Other stun methods are far more fair and require far more effort. Cult is a group antagonist, they do not need extremely overpowered stuns to function, they have numbers.

They do need stuns to function. Any gamemode based on conversion needs a stun because people will often try to slip away. When I played bay's cult, they didn't have an inbuilt stun talisman because of this exact reason and cults barely grew, people had to resort to making their own stuns or doing risky shit to get something like chloral just to convert and you best believe no one is going to stand on a spooky, blood-drawn rune because you say it's probably safe.

 

I don't care if you remove the blind, but the talisman needs a Mute and Stun. If they don't have one, they'll have to make one themselves which is just a waste of time for them- also makes it harder for them if they don't have access to hacking tools or chemistry which most of the time cultists won't.

 

All I really think needs to be done as a 'nerf' is make it so its enough for a cultist to cuff the person or tape their mouth or ready themselves to fully restrain the person. Otherwise, you might as well not have a stun and you might as well just make your own stun that will negate the entire point of removing cult's stun.

[Nantei]

2 minutes ago, GreenBoi said:

I don't care if you remove the blind, but the talisman needs a Mute and Stun. If they don't have one, they'll have to make one themselves which is just a waste of time for them- also makes it harder for them if they don't have access to hacking tools or chemistry which most of the time cultists won't.

You mean they will have to make an effort to convert people? Good. Exactly how it should be. Stun convert ganks are extremely common, it's way too powerful, and regularly abused. The stun rune still works the same, but unlike the paper it isn't a mobile moving mega flashbang that bypasses every single resistance in the game. It requires planning, thought. If the cult has to make stun prods, which I will note are extremely easy to make, then that's a good change in my book. 

[Carver]

Something something use your fucking words to convert people instead of going straight to stuns something something.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Carver
In other terms; you'd end up with less disgruntled and ineffective cultists if you convinced people instead of wordlessly forcing them on your side.

[Karhast]

Quote

Stun convert ganks are extremely common, it's way too powerful, and regularly abused.

Stun convert ganks get you antagbanned, as I've seen happen to myself and others. Stun convert roleplay is common enough, which is exactly what you want from a cult.

That said, the stun talismans are, indeed, extremely robust, so I don't mind seeing their duration nerfed.

[Garnascus]

Combat in this game revolves around stuns. This is an undeniable fact. The damage you can deal and the tools you have at your disposable all serve to one single conclusion. I need to get my opponent horizontal. That means i win. Antagonists that rely on secrecy and subversion REQUIRE access to a stun in their kit or in the case of changeling a temporary stun immunity. That being said the cult stun talisman is objectively the strongest stun in the entire game. It has absolutely no counter. It goes through armor and it even mutes the victim. Its cost is negligible and due to cult zombies each spawning with a FULL talisman of charges it is very easy to farm an unlimited amount of them. Cult absolutely needs access to this stun in some way but the ease with which they can get it and the supreme power it has is probably not healthy. 

[GreenBoi]

What Karhast and Garn said is exactly why Cult needs stun talismans. You need to talk to the person to lure them, then stun them to get them isolated and motion for the conversion. Without a normal stun it will be very easy for the person to just...ignore and walk away, and then yell about the cult's existence, ending the round early. If you get rid of it because "oh they have other options" then what is the actual point of getting rid of it or making it near-useless when you can just make it not last as long? Something as simple as that is enough.

[Kaed]

All of the fanciful talk in the world about roleplaying out a conversion means nothing if the first person you try to talk to runs away immediately upon you giving off cultist vibes or drawing a rune and reports you to security.  This is a game before a roleplaying platform, stop trying to take all the game out of it in an attempt to realize an impossible dream that everyone will play nice with each other and not play to win or play to beat the bad guy.

15 hours ago, Nantei said:

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/7347

Bumping with a relevant PR.

This removes the stun, slightly reduced the weaken, keeps the silence and blind. Only affects the talisman, so if you can lure people into a stun rune it still works as normal.

This is an incorrect explanation of the PR, which does absolutely nothing you said except remove the weaken (weaken IS the stun in this case. Weaken = falls horizontal and can't get up) effect entirely in favor of a silence and flash effect, and does nothing else to fix the sudden change not being reflected in any of the in game information.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Kaed

[Nantei]

49 minutes ago, Kaed said:

This is an incorrect explanation of the PR, which does absolutely nothing you said except remove the weaken (weaken IS the stun in this case. Weaken = falls horizontal and can't get up) effect entirely in favor of a silence and flash effect, and does nothing else to fix the sudden change not being reflected in any of the in game information.

Uh no. No it is not. 

Current rune code just applies the stun rune to the talisman. The talisman applies a strength 25 weaken and a strength 25 stun. This reduces the weaken, removes the stun from the talisman. I even checked the current pull just to be certain.

Regarding the other things. There are plentiful ways to get a stun, not many ways to get a mute. This gives you a mute and a lengthy blind. A stun prod can be made by literally an assistant with relative ease. Everything you need is in maintenance or tool storage. The stun talisman is unhealthily strong, and you still have access to the stun rune if you for some reason still find yourself needing it. And to clear up a misconception, the stun rune has AOE. You do not need to stand on it.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Nantei

[Kaed]

1 hour ago, Nantei said:

Uh no. No it is not. 

Current rune code just applies the stun rune to the talisman. The talisman applies a strength 25 weaken and a strength 25 stun. This reduces the weaken, removes the stun from the talisman. I even checked the current pull just to be certain.

Regarding the other things. There are plentiful ways to get a stun, not many ways to get a mute. This gives you a mute and a lengthy blind. A stun prod can be made by literally an assistant with relative ease. Everything you need is in maintenance or tool storage. The stun talisman is unhealthily strong, and you still have access to the stun rune if you for some reason still find yourself needing it. And to clear up a misconception, the stun rune has AOE. You do not need to stand on it.

The non-talisman stun rune also blinds the user and I believe it even stuns them when you set it off. The stun duration is so short that by the time you can see everyone is up again and fleeing or trying to kill you.  It is legitimately a piece of trash rune you should never use outside of a talisman and the fact that you recommend people use it shows me you have never tried it.

When I want to be an evil cultist with supernatural powers from beyond the veil, I should not have to rely on garbage gimmicky makeshift weapons just to get shit done.  They should be able to accomplish their goals without needing to assemble tools from scraps lying around.  I'm not opposed to lowering the stun time, but you need to do more than change several lines of code if you are modifying something like this.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Kaed

[Nantei]

1 hour ago, Kaed said:

The non-talisman stun rune also blinds the user and I believe it even stuns them when you set it off. The stun duration is so short that by the time you can see everyone is up again and fleeing or trying to kill you.  It is legitimately a piece of trash rune you should never use outside of a talisman and the fact that you recommend people use it shows me you have never tried it.

That's extremely easy to add by just upping the values. It shouldn't be as low as it is anyways. And if you mention it to Geeves I am sure he will add it to the PR.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Nantei