Removing Changeling as a Gamemode

[Xelnagahunter]

10 hours ago, Lemei said:

It would be nice if there was more warning on choosing an antag role. Something like:

'By choosing this role, you're accepting your part to drive the story and help entertain the players. Your goal is not to win or to kill as many people as possible', then perhaps more use of blacklisted roles like has been suggested on the malf post. Just as there's been a worrying number of people seeming to think otherwise recently.

We have this, it's in our rules about play antag roles. By playing on the server you agree to having read the rules and abiding by them. The problem is that bad rounds can be done well within the scope of the rules, including antags that don't do much, if anything.

[Snakebittenn]

This cannot come fast enough. We have been waiting for a ling rework for over a decade now. Strip it out.

[Gangstafary]

On 17/12/2019 at 15:04, Doxxmedearly said:

How would you suggest staff do this on the scale required? While I agree with this, and the sentiment, it's not a practical answer to the problem of ling being bad.

Let's not forget that some time within the last year or two, a large poll was held and ling was voted by a WIDE margin to be the least liked gamemode, and, if memory served, most suggestions to fix it were "removal." Something is just now being done about it. 

Educating that winning is engaging and having fun, not solely surviving/killing.  Praising players for putting effort into their gimmicks, there's literally a ton of ways to do it.

Regarding the second part of your post, as you said, "withint the last year or two" and "something is just now being done about it", indeed, the PR right now has 3 thumbs up and 6 thumbs down so yes, as you said, "something is just now being done about it".

I'd finish my message with the next thought: If I had to just suggest deleting wizard for the uncountless times their gimmick is plainly "cause chaos and make it Benny Hill 13" with security and many others (yes, I don't like the wizard gamemode), I doubt we'd have any other gamemode besides extended.

[Doxxmedearly]

Indeed, we repeat the sentiments about not winning in OOC frequently. That does not do much to change. What I'm asking is how do we, as a community, or staff, or developers, engage people on a larger or more obvious scale. What can we do? This isn't me saying your idea is bad or criticizing it; it's a legitimate question. I would love if we could get antags who agree with it all the time; the server would be the best around. 

The opinion of 9 people viewing the PR does not account for the community as a whole. The poll was before many people here and involved the entire community. I would not be opposed to holding another to re-evaluate the opinions since we've had people leave and new blood enter.

[Gangstafary]

I understand your point, but let me reverse the question: What does deleting changeling do to change?

[Doxxmedearly]

Several things, IMO.

-Removes a long-disliked gamemode that people have been asking to be removed for years, which improves the chances of a more favorable gamemode being picked in the secret rotation. This is probably the biggest benefit.

-Removal or the possibility thereof could see people who are passionate about it moving to rework it. Ling has been stale for a long time, with only a few updates. Nobody has taken a full rework on as a project because there are more interesting or enjoyable projects to dedicate time to that benefit the server. The people who enjoy it have not worked on it; this may push a change in that. We saw this happen with skrell when The Fool Who Shall Not Be Named made a PR to remove them, and skrell have never been in a better place than they are now.

-Acts on the aforementioned server poll and years of requests of the community. Though, again, gathering an updated opinion beyond git and the forums would not be a bad idea. Things may have changed, though I personally doubt it. 

IMO it is not a bad idea to remove a disliked/broken/stale piece of the server while it is being fixed, or while looking for someone to fix it. "Rework don't remove" is an annoying buzzphrase. Things get removed almost weekly from the server to improve it; this just happens to be a much larger scale. 

While the core theme of ling (body horror, paranoia) is an excellent fit for the server and a personal favorite theme of mine, its execution of those themes are poor and stale. Part of it is bad antags, part of it is limiting mechanics. I don't believe anything would be lost by its removal. I think removing it for the time being, with the possibility of it being permanent, is a net gain for the server. I don't think anyone on either side of the argument would be opposed to seeing it come back in a totally reworked way, though, so if anyone is that passionate about the game mode, To anyone who is passionate about it, as I see many are, I suggest gathering the gripes people have with it as feedback, and trying to undertake the project. 

[Carver]

Changeling has been one of the most consistently God-awful game modes in the history of HRP servers in SS13. I've seen reworks year after year, and not a single one had made it anything but an absolute chore to deal with as a mode.

If Security Cyborgs had to go for being terrible and uninteractive, then so does Changeling, and Ling's had this coming for a long time.

+1

[keinto]

The gamemode is not an issue. It's the players who cannot stand to be killed by an antag that is designed solely for hunting and creating paranoia who are the issue. The mindset of expecting 5 minutes of RP before the ling eats you is preventing the gamemode from achieving its true potential.

Changelings are one of the few antags that should be allowed to gank any organics in order to become stronger and make the round more interesting for those who are still alive. Imagine knowing 10 people have disappeared and having to watch your back at all times. You got killed? Tough luck, now observe how your death affects the round or just wait 20 minutes to continue playing.

Until people stop being butthurt and ahelping and the admins stop bwoinking lings for playing the gamemode I guess it's better to remove it and hopefully save it for events until it is reworked into something else, but that does not seem very likely.

[BRAINOS]

1 hour ago, keinto said:

The gamemode is not an issue. It's the players who cannot stand to be killed by an antag that is designed solely for hunting and creating paranoia who are the issue. The mindset of expecting 5 minutes of RP before the ling eats you is preventing the gamemode from achieving its true potential.

Changelings are one of the few antags that should be allowed to gank any organics in order to become stronger and make the round more interesting for those who are still alive. Imagine knowing 10 people have disappeared and having to watch your back at all times. You got killed? Tough luck, now observe how your death affects the round or just wait 20 minutes to continue playing.

god thank you

i've seen horror forms kill people and they still got salty about it because "they didn't have to, i was unarmed," completely ignoring the fact that horror forms are flesh hungry monsters. 

some of my favorite ling rounds were those where i got got, and it sparked a manhunt, or those where i got got, and the ling had to take on my identity to survive, or even that i simply got got, but the ling grew strong enough to truly wreak havoc. it seems like now if a ling even dares to grow an armblade, LOOC blows up with "wow ok"

i'd just fucking love to be scared of antags again instead of limiting scary, legitimate threats to big events only.

[Carver]

5 hours ago, keinto said:

The gamemode is not an issue. It's the players who cannot stand to be killed by an antag that is designed solely for hunting and creating paranoia who are the issue. The mindset of expecting 5 minutes of RP before the ling eats you is preventing the gamemode from achieving its true potential.

Changelings are one of the few antags that should be allowed to gank any organics in order to become stronger and make the round more interesting for those who are still alive. Imagine knowing 10 people have disappeared and having to watch your back at all times. You got killed? Tough luck, now observe how your death affects the round or just wait 20 minutes to continue playing.

Until people stop being butthurt and ahelping and the admins stop bwoinking lings for playing the gamemode I guess it's better to remove it and hopefully save it for events until it is reworked into something else, but that does not seem very likely.

Counter point. Ling shouldn't be assmad if I kill him in his attempt to kill me. Lings are, quite commonly, very assmad when they get killed, captured or anything else of the sort.

[Aphelion]

You guys are being dumb.

 

Ling is fine, what people call 'bad rounds' are actually just the result of it being too repetitive.
Personally, I love ling the way it is. Just sec mains can't RP it properly and half the station will either try to genk the ling or, rubberneck the ling. The other half that avoids the ling I'm certain have a good time outside of all the radiation leaks.

 

A legitimate bad ling round is one where there is absolutely no RP, where the HoS calls out the ling claiming they've 'seen it before in Dominia' or something. Those don't even happen here.

 

Ultimately I think you guys should be happy with what you have, Ling rounds work really well, and I usually love the sense of terror that accompanies it. Granted I get a little salty if I get insta-killed, but the one time that has happened I was being retarded and trying to fight the horrorform with no armor and a replica katana.

 

If  you are all unhappy with pure combat, maybe just let horror form emote so you can have actual body-horror RP. That doesn't happen tho, because most people are quite happy with pure combat, there are just a few ninnies who get sad when their spaceman dies and they are upset. Yeah I'm one of them, but like I mean come on, it's no reason to just remove Ling all-together. It's a solid round type and a staple for a good round of SS13.

 

Getting Assmad is fine, it is not scaring people off. You weirdos just need to like, try not to change everything because of a handful of bad experiences that you could not appreciate.

 

Edited January 9, 2020 by BoryaTheSlayer
Please use default formatting here.

[Carver]

5 hours ago, Aphelion said:

Getting Assmad is fine, it is not scaring people off. You weirdos just need to like, try not to change everything because of a handful of bad experiences that you could not appreciate.

In 8 years of SS13, and particularly my 6 1/2 years of RP servers, I can tell you it's not 'a handful'. It is and has consistently been the most unenjoyably shitty roundtype for most involved, with none of the attempted reworks having fixed it in the slightest. It is without fault a predictable game mode that always goes one of a few routes:

1. Captured, spams stings in the brig (previously this was transformation sting, now it's usually something more lethal), gets killed repeatedly as a result.
2. Captured, chats with the Detective for an hour (usually revealing the other lings). Gets moved to xenobiology, either kills the xenobiologist (and gets killed repeatedly as a result) or sits there until transfer.
3. Goes on a gank spree, gets killed repeatedly as a result. Ends up becoming extended but a fifth of the crew has to wait an hour to play again.
4. Goes on a gank spree and tries to stealth away. No one realizes what happened to it and the majority of the round is spent on Code Red with nothing happening for 95% of the crew. A fifth of the crew has to wait an hour to play again.
5. Does nearly nothing all round. May as well have been a traitor with a voice changer considering the passive aggressive comments it made over radio trying to poorly mimic crew.
6. Does absolutely nothing all round. Probably didn't realize they rolled changeling.

Here's the key difference between this antag and other antag types: No matter what route it goes with, you often have to kill it many times, all the meanwhile it's encouraged to murderbone. It lacks the options for clever acts of corporate espionage and framing as traitors, with it's only espionage-based powers being voice mimicry and faking fingerprints. This would be relevant if these weren't solely 'cleaning up the trail' tools, instead of tools of direct action like a Cryptographic Sequencer or a false announcement.

By their very nature they are as subtle as the average Alberyk-hosted Christmas event. Suited for violence, death and frivolity with no room for anything else. A species that supposedly 'acts from the shadows' and would never do anything foolish to reveal their existence, and yet these ones decide to go and kill off a dozen people or more if they can with no regard for whatever the changeling equivalent of the Masquerade is.

In short, removing their game mode is the only good route, and if the administration wishes to use them for events (with carefully selected volunteers instead of random draw-of-the-hat antag selection) then I imagine they'll have a purpose in said events. Do they have a purpose in their current state? No.