2 dismissals We need to talk about the game mode Revolution

[Chada1]

1 minute ago, Karhast said:

...

1. The entire old Rev gamemode disagrees with you. Loyalists nearly always dominated the Station because they had authority. Command was on their side 7/10 times.
2. I'm not implementing mechanics that most people hate (IE: Forced Conversion)
3. Player culture can be changed via changes to the gamemode.

[Karhast]

Just now, Chada1 said:

1. The entire old Rev gamemode disagrees with you. Loyalists nearly always dominated the Station because they had authority. Command was on their side 7/10 times.
2. I'm not implementing mechanics that most people hate (IE: Forced Conversion)
3. Player culture can be changed via changes to the gamemode.

Okay.

1. Those guys had authority as compared to the screeching protestors they were up against. I still doubt it'll change much, but again.. I'm open to being proved wrong. I'd be happy to, in fact.
2. That's fair, I can't really blame you.
3. I don't think gamemode changes are going to change the way people think but again, I'd be pretty happy if that actually worked so do go ahead.

[Chada1]

1 minute ago, Karhast said:

Okay.

1. Those guys had authority as compared to the screeching protestors they were up against. I still doubt it'll change much, but again.. I'm open to being proved wrong. I'd be happy to, in fact.
2. That's fair, I can't really blame you.
3. I don't think gamemode changes are going to change the way people think but again, I'd be pretty happy if that actually worked so do go ahead.

Alright, ty for the feedback tho ?

I think #3 can happen, it's happened before, back when Cult was given pylons. Security at first was getting completely destroyed by them because they kept rushing into the cult bases, and slowly they adapted to stop. (And pylons were completely nerfed a bit later.)

[Karhast]

1 minute ago, Chada1 said:

Alright, ty for the feedback tho ?

I think #3 can happen, it's happened before, back when Cult was given pylons. Security at first was getting completely destroyed by them because they kept rushing into the cult bases, and slowly they adapted to stop. (And pylons were completely nerfed a bit later.)

Alright. So how, again, do you intend to see more people play an antag role they appear to dislike(revolutionary) with these changes you proposed? I genuinely think that in its current shape, you're not going to get much play out of this at all.

[Chada1]

1 minute ago, Karhast said:

Alright. So how, again, do you intend to see more people play an antag role they appear to dislike(revolutionary) with these changes you proposed? I genuinely think that in its current shape, you're not going to get much play out of this at all.

I think people will be more likely to play the role if they're selected for it at round start than to convert into it mid round, so starting with just afew more + actually updating the wiki (RN it's still very out of date) might end up helping a decent amount. That + a command member at round start will I hope make it where rounds not getting off the ground are the exception but we'll see.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Chada1

[Karhast]

1 minute ago, Chada1 said:

I think people will be more likely to play the role if they're selected for it at round start than to convert into it mid round, so starting with just afew more + actually updating the wiki (RN it's still very out of date) might end up helping a decent amount. That + a command member at round start will I hope make it where rounds not getting off the ground are the exception but we'll see.

I'm still definitely interested to see if this works out, even if I doubt it will. Updating the wiki is always a good plan, but yeah, fingers crossed. As it is, I believe the issue stems mostly from people's (valid) preference to be the good guys over the bad ones, and I doubt these changes are going to shift the general rev round's development very much.

[Cnaym]

Let's look at why rev fails:
1. Lack of starting numbers.

2. Lack of gimmik.

3. Lack of people joining sides.

How I'd fix it from a player perspective:

1. Ahelp for another antag type like traitor (either for yourself or to be added ontop).

2. Go with the classics. Pay cuts, fire a department, send people to the mines. This is make or break, work with the other antags to figure something out or just go along  with whatever they suggest.

3. Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeee no want no revolution. You don't have to recruit for your side if the other side does enough antagonistic action. Good examples are racism and pay cuts. If one side picks up arms and radicalizes, the other side can chill and just let unrecruited crew sort it out. If you are asked for the free "kill your coworker or boss today" token, just go with it. Gimmik can change up mid round, this mode has the most antag gear and freedom of gimmik possible.

How I'd fix it from a staff position:

1. Add more, add other antags, drop free gear like it's candy, have an event that influences the station anyway, like a power failure or CCIA going full on "fire all xenos" in the form of a supervisor send by central. Honestly, if the two bald antags have no clue what to do, this is the chance to abuse all the admin verbs and create a memorable round.

2. Supply the classics, help the AooC guessing game, you are staff, you probably got more experience than the antags combined. This is the part in your mod app that went along the lines of "helping people".

3. Make it nations if you have to. Send in the drop pod, have central radicalize one side. Escalation can come from external stuff. As the round becomes louder, more people sign up for sides.

How I'd fix it from a developer position:

1. It needs a three - three or four - four start for higher pop. Teams should start strong, adding forced conversion for the shits and giggles ontop of it.

2. Randomized objectives would only limit the antags. Maybe, big maybe, add side goals like "first side to grab captains spare getting 10 more TC" to give folks some pointers to work towards. Antag bounties anyone?

3. Forced conversions via implants. We had this in the light form of loyalty implants. Make something like it or each side, a box for a couple telecrystals. Easy fix, almost lore friendly.

Rev is oddly always hit or miss. Either nothing happens, or shit really hits the fan. If you end up being rev and have no clue what to do, staff should hold your hand. On the other hand, if you are an experienced player and fuck this one up, don't sweat it. Not every round will be great or bad. Getting a gang together and heisting the vault is a 100% okay gimmik and will still make for an okay round. Copy some of the announcments you see in Rev rounds and rewrite and reuse them for the time you get rev. Those announcements make or break a public gimmik. If you go through an entire rev round without popping those out you need to hit the drawing board again. With the new names you get a bit more of leeway, but the old rev was basicly "how can I get the crew split, angry and then armed today". These three goals have helped me through a lot of rev rounds and I hope a lot of revs that asked for staff help back while I was stalking the aooc aswell :^)

[Arrow768]

 Voting for dismissal as the suggestions by the OP are not wanted. (Removal / Revert) 

However one thing that should be done and was suggested by @Cnaym is scaling the starting count with the crew count (or change it so there are more antags per crew member if already implemented).
Most of the other suggestions by @Cnaym can already be done by the players (the head fellows / contenders already spawn with the announcers and a special uplink that can be used to purchase antag gear).
Randomized objectives (from a pre-selected list) is what we had in the mutiny gamemode which got removed due to its repetitiveness.

Another issue is the following:

2 hours ago, Karhast said:

The other head said he was ahelping to be removed entirely. I was on my own.

Imho administration should tell people who get selected for a antag type (be it because they voted for it or because they selected it in their preferences) and who want out to suck it up.
The "i dont want to play $antag" is not helping the overall environment.
I played quite a few rounds as captain and quite a few times I have been selected as loyalist or recruited by a faction.
Going the "meh, I dont like that mode so I wont play" is not helpful for the overall progress of the round and even if I had little interest to play that specific mode, I still did it.

Another thing that could help fix this situation is the long planned gamemode rework.
(Players vote for a "intensity" and the antags they want to see. The antag votes are put into a weighted list and from that list and with the intensity setting a number of antags are selected to occur in the round. People who voted for the antag can be drafted to play that antag if selected)

[Chada1]

I'd like to remind everyone, that if you have any more constructive ideas aside from 'Revert' or 'Remove the mode', please post them in my feedback thread, I do want to fix the mode and I'd v. much appreciate any feedback you put there on ways you think could make the modes hit more than miss. Before this, my feedback was near completely positive, I need ideas of what to do to fix the mode from this point, I can't do anything with anything else.

Feedback and ideas here.

[Chada1]

Alright so, I've sent in the updated wiki page for Revolution but it'll be a little while until it's approved, that should help the confusion some.

[Estoytrucha]

On 03/08/2020 at 18:01, Arrow768 said:

 Voting for dismissal as the suggestions by the OP are not wanted. (Removal / Revert) 

However one thing that should be done and was suggested by @Cnaym is scaling the starting count with the crew count (or change it so there are more antags per crew member if already implemented).
Most of the other suggestions by @Cnaym can already be done by the players (the head fellows / contenders already spawn with the announcers and a special uplink that can be used to purchase antag gear).
Randomized objectives (from a pre-selected list) is what we had in the mutiny gamemode which got removed due to its repetitiveness.

Another issue is the following:

Imho administration should tell people who get selected for a antag type (be it because they voted for it or because they selected it in their preferences) and who want out to suck it up.
The "i dont want to play $antag" is not helping the overall environment.
I played quite a few rounds as captain and quite a few times I have been selected as loyalist or recruited by a faction.
Going the "meh, I dont like that mode so I wont play" is not helpful for the overall progress of the round and even if I had little interest to play that specific mode, I still did it.

Another thing that could help fix this situation is the long planned gamemode rework.
(Players vote for a "intensity" and the antags they want to see. The antag votes are put into a weighted list and from that list and with the intensity setting a number of antags are selected to occur in the round. People who voted for the antag can be drafted to play that antag if selected)

If you do this, then most of us will continue to latejoin. A great deal of players, including myself, are down to do antag roles we are comfortable with. That's why we enabled them to begin with. However, a round of SS13 is a considerable time sink and while every now and then we are willing to play outside our comfort zones, we don't actually work for the server. ESPECIALLY when we know other players are likely to be miserable or unresponsive to what we attempt.

[TrickingTrapster]

I'm going to say now I'm 100% against forced conversion. I already hate cult enough, don't make Rev worse by making conversions forced. Forced ICly would be one thing, but not mechanically, please.

Like said above, if we wanted to play an antag, we'd tick the box in character setup. If we don't, we do not want to play that role. This is why forced conversion is so incredibly dumb (and why cult is so incredibly terrible). And it's made even worse when you don't know the game mode because it's secret, get converted against your OOC will, then leave the round because you don't want to play it, and then get blamed for 'ruining the round' for the antags. It's a social and mechanical trap and it should not be implemented imo.

Scaling up the starting amount of antags is a good idea, though. Antags should have a chance, but it should not be through 'you have no choice you are antag now.' That will only worsen it.

[Chada1]

9 hours ago, TrickingTrapster said:

...

As I said, forced conversion isn't even on the table here -- I've already refused to do it.

[StationCrab]

My issue with it is it just seems like nobody wants to participate half the time. Publicly announced borging of unionists one round barely drew a reaction, it was done in the robotics bay with the windows open and nobody even showed up to cause trouble or protest, was really deflating.

[Karhast]

That's just sad, man. I'm sorry you had to deal with that kind of thing

[Chada1]

I understand the feedback and how that's awful, but there isn't really anything I can do to make people take the game mode more seriously, it's really at the mercy of the players in the round and completely out of my control.

[Carver]

Whilst I agree that people act quite unrealistic for supposedly employable characters during rev, at the same time, silly modes can offer a refreshing break - rev is one of those that along cult, wizard, vampire, ninja and changeling can be considered 'less serious' than usual.

[Sparky_hotdog]

Rev rounds (sometimes) create some of the best roleplay, with each side trying to recruit members through actual RP rather than a magic circle. I do see your point however, which is why I think a more "Mutiny" style NBT mode would make more sense.

[Chada1]

6 hours ago, Sparky_hotdog said:

Rev rounds (sometimes) create some of the best roleplay, with each side trying to recruit members through actual RP rather than a magic circle. I do see your point however, which is why I think a more "Mutiny" style NBT mode would make more sense.

When NBT comes around, if I'm still active, I'll rework it a third time. But that's a while from now.

[DatSamTho]

On 03/08/2020 at 23:01, Karhast said:

2. I approached many people with the intent to have them join. I used the radio message for some perfectly good Stalinist old revolutionary fervor.

3. I converted one guy. One. Out of very, very, very many.

. . .you're wondering why people aren't joining? "Yes, I wonder why people aren't willing to join my "perfectly good" 500 year old ideology, which has killed millions, and is extremely outdated. . .yes." People have no reason to join revs just because "rIsE uP" people often enough, don't challenge the status quo. What you need for people to join revs, is a reason. Pay cuts is the most common thing that people go with. If you just start spouting random communist/stalinist crap on the radio, people will think you're just some insane extremist. People don't randomly turn to violence. 

[Karhast]

I did announce pay cuts, and it didn't work. I'm asking this genuinely - have you ever tried being a headrev?

[DatSamTho]

Yes, yes I have. I've not been one for some time now, as my current characters aren't really good for antags, but unless something changed over a few months, I really don't get what problem people have with recruiting. I get that some rounds the people playing may just. . .not be for it, but from what I've observed, it's usually the players doing a crappy gimmick.

[Karhast]

I recommend you try it again sometime sooner, then. There's been fellow headrevs who were admins before nothing that there seems to have been a bit of a culture shift in the server; recruiting people genuinely is a bit of a chore.