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Waff-AI

Feedback: A Loadout Refactoring Before It Gets Too Late

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Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o3mXOwxti84NBqCneGpy5VMAM0li1Oj-UgjZhioSBnQ/edit?usp=sharing
PR will go up tomorrow. I'm still working on some cleaning up of the files.
This is a long post. I go into detail on why changes have been made. For full context about why some of that may be, see the attached spreadsheet.

Why did you do this?
Because a lot of people have implied interest in a large-scale reduction of loadout costs. A few things in the loadout also didn't make sense, lacked appropriate descriptors- partially my own fault- or otherwise needed some TLC on a scale beyond 'well it's in'.
By no means is this exhaustive. This feedback thread, beside allowing for people to say the change is unnecessary with a point of view beyond myself as the coder or player, is to gather suggestions for further price reductions and adjustments.

OVERALL CHANGES

-Loadout points have been slashed by five across the board. Max loadout value is now ten.
Since everything is cheaper, now, it makes less sense to have fifteen points. We can now stay at ten and adjust prices accordingly in the future.

-No item costs more than four points, now. 
With the revaluing of points, it doesn't feel good to use all of half of your 'money' on one thing when you could get five other things. I hope this encourages exploring the loadout.

ACCESSORIES
-All accessories are now free, with sparing exception.
THIS is the most controversial part of this PR, personally. I doubt it will survive feedback, but let me address a few concerns:
I. Inventory Bloat

Someone is going to take fifty accessories on their jumpsuit and become a horrific goulash of lore and need a talking-to. This is inevitable even today, but will become much more common if this goes through.
SOLUTION: I'm working on a way to cap accessories as per-slot, a la one holster, one tie, one shirt, etc. You will still be able to take a bunch, but they won't count against your augments/wheelchair/etc.

II. Griefing

A greytider is going to take one of everything and crash the server under a burden of ties.
SOLUTION: I don't actually think this will be very common. Will it suck when it happens? Absolutely. But most greytiders are so dumb as to name themselves 'Snoop Dogg' or 'Chem Urist' and get banned before they cause real damage anyway.

Overall, I feel like the benefits far outweigh the detriments. Allowing people to take a larger array of small items will mean you can complete an item-heavy character, like a Gadpathurian, without sacrificing things like a banner or a toy. The only exceptions to the 'free' rule are generic webbings and drop pouches, which offer expanded storage space and could be argued as a small mechanical advantage.

AUGMENTS
Mostly unchanged. I haven't really touched these yet, codewise or ingame, and didn't want to do much beyond reducing the prices slightly to reflect the new loadout point maximum.

BELTS AND EARRINGS
Unchanged, except the one-small-slot belt and the stud/dangle earrings are now free.

FACTION ITEMS
Holy crap, was this file a mess. On a code level, I've sorted it into headwear, uniforms, outwear, and misc items. Elsewise, sleeve patches and contractor passcards are now free, and I've put like headwears into faction-specific selections.

GENERAL
Adds a greimorian plushie, as promised. He makes a 'gort' sound. Otherwise unchanged.

RELIGION
Much like accessories, everything here is now free. I hope this encourages more openly religious characters.

SUITS
I've reduced the cost of suits to '1' universally, because of the loadout point reduction and because it was strange for suits to cost '2'.

EVERYTHING ELSE
I didn't change anything else, even the things I suggested in the refactoring, because I want to gather feedback, first, and because some of it, on reflection, seemed useless.

HOW DOES THIS FEEL INGAME?
I'm glad I asked! To test the difference, I've taken some of my characters with full loadouts and shown how this changes things.
My HoS, Hammer, was a bit light all around. He went from 15 points to 5.
My HoP, Antediluvian, is a little heavier. She went from 15 to 7.
My apprentice, Aen, was similar. They went from 15 to 8.

Feed some back if you can/want/shouldn't! Feel free to leave comments on the spreadsheet, as well; I've included access.

 

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This is a fantastic decision for characters like Offworlders too, due to the selection and cost of their gear it can be hard to fit much else in the way of small items. This is a much better solution than just adding more points. +1 from me.

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this does seem interesting, though I am worried there may be cases where people are gonna not be able to bring some stuff cause they'd be over the new limit?
though hopefully, with the points for many things reduced, it would not happen

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45 minutes ago, greenjoe said:

though I am worried there may be cases where people are gonna not be able to bring some stuff cause they'd be over the new limit?

the entire post is why this probably won't be an issue. the cost of accessory items is nonexistent

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Only thing that sounds a bit questionable to me is capping accessories per slot. A lot of stuff, like badges for example count as ties apparently due to how it works mechanically.

Other than that, glad a change is finally in the works.

Edited by WickedCybs
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2 hours ago, greenjoe said:

this does seem interesting, though I am worried there may be cases where people are gonna not be able to bring some stuff cause they'd be over the new limit?
 

If your loadout is at the maximum now without accessories, it should see some survival, but may need to be reviewed. I don't think this will be a common problem, though, unless someone has been taking eight sets of clothes.

22 minutes ago, WickedCybs said:

Only thing that sounds a bit questionable to me is capping accessories per slot. A lot of stuff, like badges for example count as ties apparently due to how it works mechanically.

After some review, you'd be correct. In the end it will just be a cap of five, or no cap at all.

 

Thanks for all the kind words and replies, so far!

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2 minutes ago, Waff-AI said:

After some review, you'd be correct. In the end it will just be a cap of five, or no cap at all.

I think a cap isn't really needed, personally. That said, I think seven or so would be a sweet spot if it's mandated. My thought is that most roles have a storage accessory they would like to take (so, webbings, holsters) and then if you just took a pants type item you'll also be taking a shirt type accessory, two gone right there, leaving three for general customization.

On those who make full use of the loadout, I generally see the amount at five or over.

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Due to technical constraints the number of items that can be selected (per gear slot) needs to be limited to 15 items.
This limit also needs to be tweakable by configuration file in case it is revealed that this limit is too high (or too low).

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I don't really know how to feel about accessories being free, but still needing to use points on other clothes and items w/o any inherent mechanical advantage (beyond niche forensics) like shoes, underclothes, hats and so forth. I did some calculations on 3 loadouts of mine, all at 15 presently, and they went to 9, 10, and 9 respectively because I tend to take a fully non-default outfit for them.

I was hoping a refactor would allow for more room for things like business cards, card holders and the like - but those still cost points despite being purely RP-based items. Why do watches of all things cost more in this proposal?

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Due to the mechanical constraints imposed by Byond limiting us to 15 items apiece, I have had to re-add a cost of '1' to accessories, which is a tragedy. I could alternatively remove the additionally loadout slots to cannibaljze space, but that would get messy.

I will take some time to re-evaluate the costs of other items to- hopefully- allow for us to continue at 15 points until a permanent solution can be found. I will also put a poll in Discord later for a more severe solution, like removing gear from jobs that already have it.

13 hours ago, Carver said:

I was hoping a refactor would allow for more room for things like business cards, card holders and the like - but those still cost points despite being purely RP-based items. Why do watches of all things cost more in this proposal?

Watches cost the same because, as Arrow has pointed out, you can only take fifteen items per slot due to code constraints. Making accessories free is one thing, but allowing for an entire wardrobe of spare outfits seems unnecessary.

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6 hours ago, Waff-AI said:

Watches cost the same because, as Arrow has pointed out, you can only take fifteen items per slot due to code constraints. Making accessories free is one thing, but allowing for an entire wardrobe of spare outfits seems unnecessary.

Your doc lists watches as costing 2. This is not the same as the live cost. As to explain my argument earlier for other things being free, it was not based on having multiple outfits (this is unfeasible for many anyway in regard to storage) but rather in being able to bring more little personal flavour items like business cards, pens, wallets, passports and badges.

Screenshot_7.png.09fabfa28f55e685a7386d2275cd29d7.png

 

As for a mechanical limit existing, that's unfortunate to hear, but on the other hand I'm very glad that the point total would no longer be lowered due to said limit. Having it lowered at all would have felt like a 'loadout nerf' rather than a refactoring if a majority of items were to remain costing a point.

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