Alberyk Deputy Loremaster Application

[niennab]

I concur with the concerns brought up in the thread over the consolidation of power. Being the loremaster deputy as well as the maintainer of any species is a conflict of interest and should not be allowed and I would encourage those at the top to make concrete rules about staff having positions in multiple departments.

There simply isn't enough regulations in place to address what could be unchecked authority and an abuse of power, no matter the state of the species' lore or the work involved. Equally, we should be encouraging players to take up positions on the staff team so to diversify the server's voice and give opportunities to those skilled and interested.

I think you have the potential to be a great deputy loremaster, however if you aren't stepping down from Tajara lore I will have to put my vote at a -1.

Edited December 23, 2021 by niennab

[MattAtlas]

9 minutes ago, niennab said:

Being the loremaster deputy as well as the maintainer of any species is a conflict of interest and should not be allowed and I would encourage those at the top to make concrete rules about staff having positions in multiple departments.

Being the loremaster and a maintainer of a species is impossible, as it says in the lore doc that you must step down as the maintainer of a species if you get selected as the lore master, but this doesn't apply for loremaster deputies, since they're still under someone's eye (the lore master).

[niennab]

3 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

Being the loremaster and a maintainer of a species is impossible, as it says in the lore doc that you must step down as the maintainer of a species if you get selected as the lore master, but this doesn't apply for loremaster deputies, since they're still under someone's eye (the lore master).

I am not talking about the loremaster position.

[DatSamTho]

While I cannot fault your skills, I can your person.

There has been at least one case of you playing favourites with, and protecting a bad actor Tajaran player you liked. At one point, after I DM'd the player about mine and their character interactions, you DM'd me telling me, bringing an issue between players up to a lore issue, completely dismissing my concerns about the player, and being uncomfortable with my interactions with them, due to me trying to "[...] trying to wiggle away from any possible consequences that your character's action might have despite the lore [...]" essentially putting the IC over the OOC, purely so you could (at least from my perspective) protect the other player. With this interaction with you in the past, I would not feel comfortable in you being at the position of deputy lore master.

And thus, I must -1

[MattAtlas]

15 minutes ago, niennab said:

I am not talking about the loremaster position.

See the second part of the post: it's intentional that you don't have to step down as a species lore dev if you become the deputy loremaster, so it doesn't make sense to -1 someone for it.

[niennab]

4 minutes ago, MattAtlas said:

See the second part of the post: it's intentional that you don't have to step down as a species lore dev if you become the deputy loremaster, so it doesn't make sense to -1 someone for it.

My post details why I have -1'ed the application. Please stay on topic and do not spam the app.

Edited December 23, 2021 by niennab

[Marlon P.]

I don't believe someone should be compelled to resign a maintainer role to become deputy or loremaster. Every time they've regretted it.

I dont think alberyk should either.

Still +1

Edited December 23, 2021 by Marlon P.

[Alberyk]

10 hours ago, Waff-AI said:

You have, of course  worked hard and long to bring Tajara lore to where it stands, but my opinion lies in that I believe we have a little too much of Tajara lore in the server at the moment, and that it would be good to bring everyone else up to speed.

From this reply and others, I think people believes that the job of a loremaster or its deputy is to write for everyone's else, well, it is not. It is to organize the teams, help where it is needed, and write for bigger/more general stuff. I don't plan to go around writing for other species instead of their writers, I plan to organize and facilitate the work of the other teams to make their job easier.

10 hours ago, Waff-AI said:

I don't think this is bad, per say- rather toward the opposite, as it shows the strength of its writing- but rather brings into question your commitment to anything that isn't Tajara-related, as the first thing that you evoke for me, and many others, is Tajara.

Like I pointed out in my application, I worked on non-Tajaran things already like some aspects of Biesel and the megacorporation update. I also wrote other things that are going to be released with NBT. I even tried to help other teams at some point, like by writing some additions to the Elyra, back in the day but it went nowhere since they never looked into what I wrote.

10 hours ago, Waff-AI said:

I think my main question is this: can you detach yourself from Tajara in your greater work as deputy loremaster? Can you commit to aiding every lore team, and helping them all get to that state of ubiquity, or is your refusal to step down a conscious declaration?

My plans are for the whole team. The Tajara lore by far is the one that needs the least work and attention on the administrative side of the things.

[Alberyk]

41 minutes ago, tomkiel said:

There has been at least one case of you playing favourites with, and protecting a bad actor Tajaran player you liked. At one point, after I DM'd the player about mine and their character interactions, you DM'd me telling me, bringing an issue between players up to a lore issue, completely dismissing my concerns about the player, and being uncomfortable with my interactions with them, due to me trying to "[...] trying to wiggle away from any possible consequences that your character's action might have despite the lore [...]" essentially putting the IC over the OOC, purely so you could (at least from my perspective) protect the other player. With this interaction with you in the past, I would not feel comfortable in you being at the position of deputy lore master.

You play/played a Tajaran character who has/had a human girlfriend, something that is clearly a major taboo in the Tajaran culture (something you should be aware of). Instead of bringing any issues you have with the player, you decide to pm them to dissadue them from doing something (breaking character) while lying about why you were doing that; you said you did not want to lose your character (might be true, but you should still expect some kind of consequence for doing something that is clearly stated as bad) while in fact you had other intentions. You claim to have a problem with a player, and instead of approaching staff, you decide to pm him. I was not protecting anyone, I literally told you to report them if you had a problem, but you can't expect to break the "rules" of the species and just tell people to ignore them.

Our conversation:

Spoiler

I also did not take this decision alone, in fact, I had a talk with mofo, our loremaster at the time, to see what he thought of your behavior. I am unsure what you expected me to do from you telling me this without taking the proper ways to solve a problem. I am sorry but I can't let people go around pming people to break character. I believe I did what was right and I would do again. 

[Susan]

I offer Alberyk my full-throated support. I am confident in his ability to handle the workload.

[Triogenix]

Alb has maintained and managed what I consider to be the best lore on the server since I joined around of the time of the Blood Moon arc last year, and has continually done enjoyable things with it. I have very little doubt he'd do well in the position. His roadmap and criticisms also give me hope for a better foundation and therefore future of lore.

However, I do also have a question to ask about your roadmap.

On 22/12/2021 at 10:47, Alberyk said:

-Ironing the basic foundations of our lore. It is a lot of work for one or two writers, we must get all of our writers to contribute to this. The current system of assigning teams to work on certain sections has worked fine so far, but I think implementing deadlines that can be reasonably extended is a way to get the final push we need. We need everyone to contribute and agree on the lore that all teams will use to write.

-Get the teams to work on their foundations and already existing lore. Adding a new planet when a lot of the lore is poorly explained or conflicts with the rest is just contributing to the problem of maintenance hell. This might sound a bit draconic, but we need tighter control of what is being produced to make sure that the basics are being covered. The planet ban was an okay idea, but I think that a lot more must be done to help with this. I am thinking of goals for the teams to do before they can push their narrative a bit forward or add something they are passionate about.

-Get the teams to integrate their articles into the wiki. There is no other way but to get them to work on this above their personal projects and passion. I know it sounds rough, but it is necessary. The article sections must undergo a thorough review by the teams responsible for them. If the article is conflicting with current lore, it can just be moved to the retconned section without much of the bureaucracy reserved for regular retcons. We need to do a spring cleaning on the articles section.

I agree with nearly all of your sentiments that foundations need to be ironed out and spring cleaning must be done on nearly all sections of lore, but I worry at the timeframe. These seem to be long and tedious tasks to complete, not only burning out lorestaff members but also making it so regular players start to lose interest in the lore that's no longer moving forward at a pace they were accustomed to. Do you see these as issues, and if so do you have any plans to combat them?

[Alberyk]

1 hour ago, Triogenix said:

I agree with nearly all of your sentiments that foundations need to be ironed out and spring cleaning must be done on nearly all sections of lore, but I worry at the timeframe. These seem to be long and tedious tasks to complete, not only burning out lorestaff members but also making it so regular players start to lose interest in the lore that's no longer moving forward at a pace they were accustomed to. Do you see these as issues, and if so do you have any plans to combat them?

I am a bit unsure of what you mean by the pace. If you mean in character development (like articles), we barely had it from half of our lore teams and people are still interested in the lore. If you mean the frequency of development, I also think that implementing my plans would not delay it for the teams that need it.

The spring cleaning would also come alongside the history section being updated with the articles that remain canon. So there would be a lore update besides articles being shoved in the non-canon corner.

About the question of burnout, it is indeed a good concern. I already suggested somewhere at the application about the creation of a system to let people publish stuff they want/are passionate about if they work before on the less-than-fun parts of their jobs. But we must take into consideration that being a lore writer is a voluntary job, there are also expectations and obligations.

[Triogenix]

1 hour ago, Alberyk said:

I am a bit unsure of what you mean by the pace. If you mean in character development (like articles), we barely had it from half of our lore teams and people are still interested in the lore. If you mean the frequency of development, I also think that implementing my plans would not delay it for the teams that need it.

 

 

Not just articles but anything that gets people excited. Like whenever a new planet was added to humanlore you would see 8 new characters all from there and then they'd all disappear in a week. I don't see foundational stuff getting people excited even though it is very necessary. but it's good to hear that you don't think it will be delayed for the teams who require it.

The other answers are also satisfactory to me, and soothe alot of my concerns(even if one was just pointing out something I missed).

+1

[Carver]

Tajara lore under your oversight has been possibly one of the only cases on any server with the species where I have genuinely considered applying for the whitelist (And probably will come NBT). If anyone is capable of managing the position of both Deputy LM and Tajara Overseer, I would trust it to be you. The head administrator position also contributes very positively to this given it shows a proven record of management and moderation experience, as well as an inherent trust in your objectivity by the staff and community around you.

[Boggle08]

I echo Carver's sentiments. I can't think of anyone more dependable for the position, and you're responsible enough to the point where I'm not really worried about you holding onto so much power. I can see Deputy Loremaster is a responsibility to you, and not a vehicle for sporadic ambition. And now that we're slowly clambering out of NBT and into maintenance hell, that's what we need.

My one concern is if you're going to hold onto this position indefinitely. Upon completion of your roadmap, will you relinquish this deputy position?

Edited December 30, 2021 by Boggle08

[Alberyk]

33 minutes ago, Boggle08 said:

My one concern is if you're going to hold onto this position indefinitely. Upon completion of your roadmap, will you relinquish this deputy position?

Another great point I did not consider. If we solve the issues/implement my roadmap, I think we would be roughly at a good point in lore where each team can just move foward their ic narratives or develop the stuff they are most passionate about. This would meant that the team might need far less oversight. So yes, I would likely step down in this case.

[Haydizzle]

I'm not going to beat a dead horse here with some of the points brought up. I agree that the hat trick of staff positions might be too much time, especially considering how many active devs we have.

To bring up a new point, a concern is that, when it comes to the lore team as a whole, there are hardly any contributions or help offered to other species teams— there isn't much of a team player attitude. Additionally, outside of group projects where everyone is delegated a part to write, your contributions tend to stick solely to tajara-related lore and pushes its narratives. For King of the World, you added a tajaran insurgent group. For the PMCG, a tajaran subsidiary was made. For Biesel politics, a tajaran party was created. Based on these two facets, on top of the consolidation of power and the other positions you have, I don't know if I am comfortable with you in the position of deputy lore master.

[Alberyk]

26 minutes ago, Haydizzle said:

To bring up a new point, a concern is that, when it comes to the lore team as a whole, there are hardly any contributions or help offered to other species teams— there isn't much of a team player attitude.

This can be said of nearly everyone. Contribution between the teams is kinda lacking, but I sometimes show up to give my opinions on other channels. Like I pointed out, I once tried to contribute for an Elyra update a long time ago, but the people involved never came back on it.

Spoiler

26 minutes ago, Haydizzle said:

For King of the World, you added a tajaran insurgent group.

I did that when kyres asked if we wanted to get our species involved. I did not write only Tajaran things, I helped write a lot of articles about the invasion and other non-Tajaran events related to the solarian collapse, like the one about the frontiers being attacked by pirates. I also worked closely with everyone else to make the entire arc possible. Unsure how that was not being a team player.

26 minutes ago, Haydizzle said:

For the PMCG, a tajaran subsidiary was made.

I wrote way more than that for the PMCG. I wrote the history, the overview section, and the article introducing it. Also, the group already existed, I just tied them with the corporation.

26 minutes ago, Haydizzle said:

For Biesel politics, a tajaran party was created.

Yes. However, I did make other suggestions and did contribute to the suggestions for when we wrote it and handled the feedback.

I also wrote a lot of other sections of the megacorporation rewrites that have nothing to do with Tajaran but they have not been published yet.

I am unsure how I am not a team player when even writing Tajaran lore I try to get the other teams involved in whatever we are doing. Like the Tajaran in Himeo and even Gakal'zaal. Both human and unathi teams were consulted and invited to contribute.

[Marlon P.]

Active species developers naturally contribute to these things more, so they appear in more places. It sounds like Haydizzle might be concerned that Tajara will come to dominate the administrations time. I believe Alb and Cael just have to get other loredevs to contribute. By any means necessary.... lol

What will you do to get more diverse stuff from the team, alberyk? 

Like when i was loremaster, one extreme option in the toolbox is id do it myself for them so the uninvolved/inactive team in question would say "no thats not how we want it" then edit the contribution and I'd end up with them contributing. What will YOU do?

Edited December 31, 2021 by Marlon P.

[Alberyk]

7 minutes ago, Marlon P. said:

What will you do to get more diverse stuff from the team, alberyk? 

Currently, my plan is to continue getting the teams to step out of their comfort zone by assigning them to do the general lore projects, like the extranet or Tau Ceti's updates. I explained this in another post.

To have people contribute to other teams is a bit more tricky and risky. I feel that we can't really force people to do it, at best we can incentivize it. Like when I tried, my suggestion went ignored, if something like this happened while I was in the administration of the team, I would get the team involved to review or give them a deadline to at least answer the suggestion. I think we can also see if any team is interested in asking for another team's help, this could be easier if the lore master or deputy was involved.

13 minutes ago, Marlon P. said:

Like when i was loremaster id do it myself for them so the teams in question would say "no thats not how we want it" then edit the contribution and I'd end up with what i wanted. What will YOU do?

I think it is a matter of balance. I think the lore master should intervene in anothe team's writing when whatever they are doing threatens the lore itself, either by breaking the rules or by creating a lot of issues. Ultimately, having someone rewrite the stuff you wrote should be a last measure. I prefer working through negotiation and guidance. I think taking matters in your hands is something that should be avoided, but in the end, the loremaster is the boss.

[Kintsugi]

I personally feel like it's questionable to expect the sub-teams to contribute to other species' lore. There's not necessarily any problem with that, but I feel like it's odd to make that an expectation. Someone who signed up to write Vaurca lore should not be expected to write Human lore - why should they? Alb writes Taj lore because he is the Taj loredev, not the Human loredev or the Diona loredev.

[Haydizzle]

There are some good points made, but my concerns still stand. Your presence on lore is not really felt outside of group projects that Kyres and Cael led/lead, so I don't know how comfortable I am with leading the charge on getting other teams to fix anything within their lore, when I haven't seen much of your opinions on the various states of the lore, if that makes sense.

There is also the finer point of: if you want to fix more generalized things in the lore, why not make submissions in the past for some of the topics you mentioned? Tajara lore has some of the most well put together species lore, so there would have been more opportunity afforded to fixing the extranet, for example.

51 minutes ago, DanseMacabre said:

I personally feel like it's questionable to expect the sub-teams to contribute to other species' lore. There's not necessarily any problem with that, but I feel like it's odd to make that an expectation. Someone who signed up to write Vaurca lore should not be expected to write Human lore - why should they? Alb writes Taj lore because he is the Taj loredev, not the Human loredev or the Diona loredev.

There is much more to contributing than writing. Editing, giving opinions, and discussing things with teams can help spur discussion and improve the final product. Additionally, lore writers are already expected to write outside of their species for group projects delegated by lore masters now and of the past.

Finally, you put in your support for Alb's plan, but it explicitly talks about assigning projects to lore writers to get them out of their comfort zone. Is it not fair to then ask why Alb has not done the same?

Anyway, these are all the concerns I have to put. Good luck with the application, Alb.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Haydizzle
Hindsight is curse I am forced to reconcile

[Alberyk]

21 minutes ago, Haydizzle said:

Your presence on lore is not really felt outside of group projects that Kyres and Cael led/lead

Same can be said of anyone that was not the lore master or deputy. The biggest arcs we had were pretty much speared by the lore deputies and lore masters with lore writers helping with whatever was needed. Much of kotw was kyres' writing, besides whatever was left for the teams to solve, like the human team. Sure we had some random contributions made by other species to certain areas of other lores, but ultimately the team have been focused on themselves. It is essentially a trend since I can remember and I think we should change. Also, I did try before.

21 minutes ago, Haydizzle said:

There is also the finer point of: if you want to fix more generalized things in the lore, why not make submissions in the past for some of the topics you mentioned?

Because I believe this should be a group project that the entire lore team should work on. Everyone is going to use things like extranet, Biesel, and the faster than light methods. Writing everything myself or having a set proposal is not the same as doing what I said I would do by involving everyone, something only possible in someone in a position to administrate. As a mere lore writer, I can't assign teams to do x things or set deadlines.

[Mofo1995]

Maybe it isn't fair, in the sense that most of the issues the current batch of candidates are looking to fix are issues that resulted from my lackluster performance as loremaster... HOWEVER, of all the applicants so far, I think Alberyk is the strongest and most likely to succeed at helping Cael, uh... fixing my mistakes. Tajara lore writing is ascendant and far beyond any of the quality I had ever produced as taj writer. Alb is also far more active than I was and would probably be a great fit for Cael and likely to keep up with their pace and needs. 

I get people's concerns about conflicts of interests and consolidation of too much power under one individual. After all, I gave up head CCIA when I took on loremaster for similar reasons. My memories kinda spotty on it, but I think I volunteered to do that instead of being required to? Either way, for about 6 months I was deputy loremaster and head CCIA concurrently. I think they're legitimate concerns, and I get why people would have them. Though from my time as taj dev with Alb as my deputy and later as loremaster with Alb as one of the writers, I can confidently say they never leveraged their position as head admin to influence lore team politics. Or at the very least, never leveraged their position against me to make me do things. As far as I'm aware there wasn't any abuse of power like that going on. The past isn't always an indication of the future, but I have faith and confidence in Alb to appropriately separate the roles given their good track record of doing so over the past two and a half years.

I am worried about the workload of so many positions at once! But maybe that should be taken with a grain of salt, since that's coming from someone with no free time who can't really imagine, well, having free time. It would obviously be far too much for me to imagine handling, but Alb's a lot more committed than I am, so maybe its within the realm of their possibilities.

I talked to Cael about potential good deputy loremasters before taking my leave, Alb was certainly one that came up. They were also on my personal wishlist for good deputy loremaster picks back when I last had deputy applications, so I'd say they have a very consistent and strong performance on the lore team. 

S'posing they can work it into their time schedule, I feel Alb would be perfect for the job, and has my full endorsement!

[Tristan63]

Shouldn't be passed because we could have an Eckles situation on our hand.

 

-1