Loadout: sign reader gloves

[UponASeaOfStars]

Which demonstrates perfectly that it's absolutely fine to play a mute character in most positions as long as they're able to communicate effectively to the needs of their job.

[KingOfThePing]

I would really appreciate it you would not put words in my mouth or automatically assume some malicious intent behind what I wrote.

10 hours ago, Sniblet said:

If you suffer from a disability or life-altering injury you CANNOT try to overcome it. There is NO WAY that any realistic character would EVER want to be as close to normal and functional as possible. You must either be FULLY mute or NOT mute. NO middle ground exists, and attempting to depict such a thing would be BORING and BAD.

I was saying, that you actively subscribe to playing a disabled character, when you create one. This should have some impact to how you play the game - because this is a video game. Your argument is like saying that our combat is shit because you dont go down with one hit from any pistol or rifle. I have also not, with a single word, said that attempting such a "middle ground" as you call it, would be "boring" and "bad". This is all your interpretation of what I wrote.

I don't think you intended it but you gave a perfect argument against these gloves: there is a plethora of already available things in-lore to help with disabled people, mute ones too, so why would these gloves be a thing when there are already established things to remedy muteness?

I dont have anything to say about your last point because I neither care about the "mute character boom from five years ago" nor is it relevant in any way here.

[Sniblet]

Okay. I’m sorry. Take two, with less frustrated sarcasm.

>You actively subscribe to playing a disabled character

That’s true in the sense that often, when you create a character with a particularly memorable and inflexible trait, you can’t retcon it. However, I don’t see how this precludes the option to create and play a less-disabled character (prosthetic as opposed to amputee), or play out an IC transition from being fully mute (amputee) into wearing some cool gloves (prosthetic). It’d be like playing someone who can’t afford glasses (let’s pretend they’re really expensive) for a while, then buying some shitty glasses that don’t really get you up to normal as a hard-earned “first step” to not being nearsighted. That’s exactly the plan for my mute character. I’m not sure if people just aren't considering that this kind of arc is possible, but part of my frustration in this thread comes from the implication that it’s worthless.

>There is a plethora

Few reasons.

1. Why not one more?

2. IC, they’re all implants: either synthetic vocal chords (only useful if the larynx is what’s defective) or fluff augmentations. And I think that’s literally it for speech disabilities. There are a few IC reasons to avoid these: cost, safety, body purism, a lack of an accurate diagnosis making addressing the issue directly impossible…

3. A partial, visible fix, with clear remaining mechanical disadvantages, is more interesting to play (with) than “I got some made-up implant yesterday and can talk literally perfectly once I’ve had a bit more practice! It’s over! My character’s gimmick is dead!! :).” Refer to my first response paragraph.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Sniblet

[Don]

I find the whole "you are subscribing to playing a disabled character" angle to be rather disingenuous. We have prosthetic limbs in the game for no other reason than the fact that they're a sci-fi staple. Nobody considers those characters as disabled, they're seen as "cool" and "interesting". And yet mute accessibility is too far somehow?

 

As for everyone's favourite strawman, snowflakes will make bad characters regardless of whether mute characters get accessibility options or not.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Don
guh

[Sycmos]

As far as I'm concerned the entire argument against mute accessibility stems from a place of cultural disdain for mute characters in this community and has absolutely zero reasonable basis outside of paranoia about RP quality. Aurora is not the server it was in 2016, 2018 or even 2020, and whether anyone chooses to acknowledge it or not the tropes of yore have largely dwindled in prevalence or died off altogether. The stain of bad character writing may linger, but it should not be used as the foundation for further restricting access to playing more diverse characters.

The kind of attitude displayed in this thread is only harmful to the portrayal of our community by newer players and those looking in from the outside.

[SilverSZ]

I quite like the idea actually, whilst synthetic vocal chords exist and I actually use them for a character who would otherwise be mute they serve a very different purpose imo to this idea proposed in that they act as a full remedy and are invisible to an average observer. I'd describe them as analogous to saying your character lost a limb and has a transplanted vat-grown organic one to replace it.

The idea of gloves like this seems to me more like having a robotic limb, it's something that helps your condition immensely, allowing you to talk in the same way a robotic limb might allow you to walk or hold things but it's a lot more visible and thusly makes it more interesting and visible for other characters in the same way that a robotic limb makes characters who are missing limbs more interesting than those who aren't along with lots of RP reasons one could want a non-augmented aide for being muted. For example with our cultures that have taboos against augmentation like Dominia.

I don't think it'd in some way lead to more snowflakey characters and there's reasons why these gloves would be used, both ooc and ic for mute characters rather than our existing alternatives. I'd personally like to see it added.

[KingOfThePing]

4 hours ago, Don said:

I find the whole "you are subscribing to playing a disabled character" angle to be rather disingenuous. We have prosthetic limbs in the game for no other reason than the fact that they're a sci-fi staple. Nobody considers those characters as disabled, they're seen as "cool" and "interesting". And yet mute accessibility is too far somehow?

 

As for everyone's favourite strawman, snowflakes will make bad characters regardless of whether mute characters get accessibility options or not.

This is such a weird and honestly bad take that I dont even know how to start and I will not subject myself to others putting words in my mouth any longer in this thread. Besides the first quote I have said nothing what you brought forward nor do I share your view on it, especially the prosthetic limbs. Of course it's fine to have your opinion on prosthetic limbs but not everyone shares that. You and OP are the only ones who keep bringing up the "strawman snowflake" argument as well and at this point it's tiring.

[UponASeaOfStars]

Right now, if you want to play a mute character, your options are as follows:

1. Play a service job or Hangar Technician. If your character is in any of the other departments, go to 2.
2. Use a made-up implant that lets you speak, quote, "quickly and properly" at a minimum. If that's not something you or your character would do, go to 3.
3. Get bwoinked, because you're breaking the job accessibility requirements rules.

If you want to play a mute character that isn't in Service (or Hangar Tech), your only option if you don't like being banned, is this:

5 hours ago, Sniblet said:

“I got some made-up implant yesterday and can talk literally perfectly once I’ve had a bit more practice! It’s over! My character’s gimmick is dead!! :).”

Which, for clarity, is a bad thing. It sucks to have to erase a major character trait like that, and even if you try and find workarounds like "oh, it's just a fancy TTS circuit", most people won't be able to tell the difference, just like they won't notice the difference between your lab-grown limb and a regular organic limb.

Admittedly, that's more a problem with the job accessibility requirements, but I think adding translator gloves is a very good first step, as it'd allow people who communicate primarily with sign language to speak to at least 'speech impediment' level. 

As far as I see it, the only valid argument for "why should these be a thing?" is "why would someone IC create them?", which is already being answered because IC it's actively being worked on by several members of Horizon staff. As for "who's going to make them OOC?"... well, I've been trying. We're already halfway there.

Edited January 25, 2023 by UponASeaOfStars

[KingOfThePing]

Well, you just re-iterated that you want to circumvent the job accessibility stuff with this, so don't play a mute character then

Edited January 26, 2023 by KingOfThePing

[Sniblet]

16 hours ago, KingOfThePing said:

Well, you just re-iterated that you want to circumvent the job accessibility stuff with this, so don't play a mute character then

I still don’t understand how you can unironically say this after prosthetics and glasses have been brought up so many times.

Can there be no acceptable method in your mind for a mute character to try to communicate?

If not, what makes a method acceptable vs not? If so… huh?

If this thread were suggesting adding prescription glasses, would you still dislike the idea for circumventing accessibility requirements?

If not, what’s different? If so… I don’t know where to begin?

By now all I want is to know what you’re thinking, because all I know for sure is you don’t like the gloves, that you believe the gloves would be boring, and that I’m missing your point. I assume that your concerns are entirely OOC. I assume that you believe the gloves would be, in total, bad for the game. I’m not entirely closed to discovering that I may be wrong and stupid, but I can’t begin to reach any kind of conclusion with you if I can only engage with your argument by filling in the parts that haven’t been made clear to me on my own.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Sniblet
-sudoku

[Carver]

I don't think translator gloves are going to solve the main barrier that keeps mute characters out of 80% of the roles: you can't use the damn radio. There's also the obvious 'every other role requires you to be holding tools, thus rendering effective sign language impossible or at the very least improbable' but the radio is the key thing here.

Whether or not these gloves are added you're very likely not being allowed into those jobs if you take them over the augment that replaces your vocal cords. Look at it this way: the synthetic vocal cords/synthesizers are equivalent to using a prosthetic to replace a missing hand, the hand signs gloves would be equivalent to using a hook to replace the missing hand.

[WickedCybs]

As an item it seems fine. If you're suggesting this in the hopes of allowing mute characters into more roles though, that's not likely.

I'd suggest making a separate thread on the accessibility guidelines if you feel strongly about it or renaming the current one so it's more clear about what exactly is wanted here. 

[DeadLantern]

People are forgetting that mutism can be induced by psychological trauma. These people, from certain stressors (or rarely permanently), can not speak in certain situations (or at all), but people like these can typically write easily or sign easily. Mutism is not strictly a physical phenomenon.

Additionally, these gloves may be used by HoH/Deaf folk who simply prefer speaking in their first language or are unused to speaking with their voice.

[Zulu0009]

On 24/01/2023 at 23:14, KingOfThePing said:

Nah man. This sounds just like a way to circumvent the job accessibility stuff or whatever the name is. You are actively subscribing to playing a disabled character and to the problems and hurdles that come with it. If you dont want to deal with that then just don't play a disabled character. Just being able to negate it is honestly boring - just as universal translators are and shouldnt be a thing as well.

I'm gonna have to agree with @Sniblet on this one. The idea that, firstly, disabled characters exist purely with that disability as a sort of gimmick or trait is dumb. I made a chaplain that had a problem in his leg and needed a wheelchair, once, but that wasn't the whole personality of this character. The existence and persistence of a wheelchair or a cane, aren't The Cool Loadout Thing that a character has, they're a regular part of that character's life. And frankly, if that character wants to overcome those issues, they will, through TTS machines, implants and surgical procedures. Sign reader gloves don't appeal to me necessarily, but I recognize that sign language is used by MAYBE 4-5 people at best. Everyone would rather pick Sol Common, Tradeband, Freespeak or their origin's language. This arcs back to the fact that, for some reason, an Elyran doesn't come with Elyran as a standard language, or an IPC doesn't have EAL included, but that's another topic.

As Sniblet mentioned, it feels like a lot of the older players or staff members have seen some kind of major issue regarding topics like this and are now staunchly reactionary to them. Has there been some massive tide of disabled characters before or something?

[Zelmana]

While this may sound tone deaf (no pun intended), know my intention isn't harmful against the mute/deaf community.
 

There exist some disabilities. In each of these we could say they are "variants of the norm", to which there are technological "solutions" to bring the disabled person back to the normative baseline (I know my language here makes it seem like these are problems needing to be solved, but plainly put they are not statistically 'normal')

In each of these scenarios where technology has been implemented, we have also gone some steps further inside of our tech/sci-fi setting. For example:

Mobility Issues:
Crutches -> Wheelchairs -> Cybernetic Prosthetic Legs / Tesla Spines (Full Replication Reached)

Blindness:
Optical Nerve Implant/Prosthetic (Full Replication Reached)

Deaf/Mute/HoH:
Sign -> Vocal & Auditory Implant (Full Replication Reached) - Or nearly full, since it utilizes TTS

Essentially- in our setting, full replication of the 'lost' capability in the baseline is achieved already through technological means. In my personal opinion, wheelchairs exist in setting because they are a temporary mobility aide, similar to crutches. Those who have lost full mobility it is more believable that they opt for full prosthesis (or tesla spines). On the subject of HoH/Deaf/Mute, there is no need for the "intermediary/temporary" solution such as crutches or wheelchairs, and users who are permanently differently abled have the option of fully replicating the lost ability.

Simply put, I would see these as a regression and more primitive option for "solving" the "problem" (I know how bad that reads), when an already more advanced assistance is available.

[UponASeaOfStars]

Synthetic vocal cords are a replacement for a damaged larynx, which would work for verbal apraxia and vocal cord paresis, but would not benefit characters with aphasia (muteness caused by brain damage or neurodegenerative diseases), auditory processing disorder (neurodevelopmental disorder that can often render speech difficult), or other similar conditions.

Plus, not everyone is 100% down to be implanted with something; it's the same reason that amputees exist even in 2465, when prosthetic limbs are commonplace. Perhaps there's ethical, cultural, or religious reasons to choose not to take the synthetic route, or perhaps it's simply unaffordable for that character, or perhaps they want to but can't because their body rejects the implantation. We don't know, because it's the future and it's all made up, but more variety is rarely a bad thing, especially when it allows us to represent real-life marginalised groups.

TL;DR: Yes, it's not full and perfect replication. And that's okay.

[Montyfatcat]

I like this, it's futuristic while also being decently grounded so long as it has logical restrictions. I'd even go so far as to say we could turn it into a fluff augment too, since aurora has a good amount of those and very established lore for augmentation going (by ss13 standards) crazy.

[Montyfatcat]

23 hours ago, Sycmos said:

As far as I'm concerned the entire argument against mute accessibility stems from a place of cultural disdain for mute characters in this community and has absolutely zero reasonable basis outside of paranoia about RP quality. Aurora is not the server it was in 2016, 2018 or even 2020, and whether anyone chooses to acknowledge it or not the tropes of yore have largely dwindled in prevalence or died off altogether. The stain of bad character writing may linger, but it should not be used as the foundation for further restricting access to playing more diverse characters.

The kind of attitude displayed in this thread is only harmful to the portrayal of our community by newer players and those looking in from the outside.

Me and Sycmos rarely agree but I'm with them entirely here, especially as someone who once spent an entire month mute in public because my best friend wasn't at my school anymore. The community response to this has been, frankly, fucking horrid. Seeing how people regard a disability as a characteristic of a "cringe character" and are willing to make the setting oddly stunted in one area of progress just for the sake of stopping a minor annoyance, or a perceived potential issue that is entirely unlinked to the disability, has me wondering what happened to the community that was previously concerned about fair treatment of disabled characters and drawing a hard OOC line against picking on characters for those disabilities.

So called "waifus" will exist regardless, how is making sign more viable in day-to-day gameplay going to change that? Surely they would use whatever is available to them at the time?

[Evandorf]

Regarding the use of the gloves specifically, wouldn’t you be able to achieve the same results with existing loadout items? You could customize the name and description of a pair of gloves and speak in basic while wearing them and only speak in sign language if you had the gloves removed. 

[Montyfatcat]

You could, but getting people to accept that is incredibly difficult, especially if they never see you away from the gloves. It also opens you up to slipping up if you're unaware they've been removed, and also opens up to potential arguments about whether they even exist in lore. It's neater and better for continuity if the gloves were a mechanical thing.

[wowzewow]

This thread is quickly getting out of hand.

@Sniblet, I recommend re-suggesting this as a custom item.

As for policy on Job Accessibility, please move this to the Policy Suggestions section.

For discussion on about adding this item into the loadout, It'd be preferable to see some actual demand for said item before going forward with this (other than OP and hypothetical characters).