Rec area remap feedback

[kyres1]

Please read the full PR description and its replies here before replying

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/16103

 

 

[Sheeplets]

Good. The recreational areas have always been wasted space. I'm happy to see them gone.

[Gem]

i'm fine with this.

[KingOfThePing]

Sad that it had to go, but this is a better solution and a straight upgrade. Like it

[La Villa Strangiato]

Okay, time to collect all my critiques into one post here.

From your post on the GitHub:
 

Quote

 

I can't move these positions without better reasoning, sorry. I am doing this primarily to bring gameplay closer to what is ultimately a very distant and sparsely utilized area of the map. The first idea was moving this formerly-really-important roleplay location to the unimportant rooms that occupy the space they should be in; being the CIC and self destruct.

Neither the CIC or self destruct actively or even in practice contribute roleplay by merit of being in a central position. On the other hand, if you're lounging around in a holo-gym alone, the likelihood of people running into you in one of the most easily-accessible halls we have is very beneficial.

 

I am having a bit of trouble parsing this. What is the "formerly-really-important" roleplay location? Is it the rec room, the holodeck, or the CiC/self-destruct? Are you saying that the holodeck should be in the space that the CiC/self-destruct was?

I feel like "contribute roleplay" is doing a bit too much heavy lifting here. I find the location of the CiC/self-destruct convenient because it means that a command member doesn't have to walk themselves across three decks to reach a very important location where you can continue to do Command Things if the bridge is compromised. Its central position is because it is on the command deck and needs to be accessible to command. It's also close to medical, which I will get into more shortly.

To elaborate, I find this PR makes the third deck feel a lot more cramped, and I am mildly annoyed that the space that was in the third deck rec area got shaved off when a lot of the space could have been used to make the holodecks a lot more accessible and fit Patience, the CiC, and the self-destruct in.

For example: These points on the holodeck entryway are massive chokepoints, and they seem like the only way to enter the holodeck.

The holodeck as it currently is is a lot more accessible because it has three halls surrounding it, which are all fairly large. This version makes it a lot more crowded and choked to get in or watch what's going out without obstructing traffic. Two-tile hallways to observe happenings are probably not gonna cut it, given some of the rowdiest rounds where all of the crew was watching what happened in the 'deck meant that three three-tile hallways got very full.

Speaking of obstructing traffic, I know it's a kind of a niche route, but this PR makes the holodeck (and the third deck in general) a lot less accessible for medical people too. One being the crowding/chokepoint issue that I already brought up (when I play first responder it's sometimes a hassle to get people to move out of the way in a three-tile hallway, nevermind a single doorway), but the other is that third deck medical is nicely close to the elevator, the stairs, the CiC,, and the holodeck.

It's a nice, broad route from all four mentioned locations to the safe zone of medical, and the proposed new map (WIP as it is, I understand) makes it a lot more roundabout to get from the elevator to medical, and because of the singular door, would make it very painful for someone in cardiac arrest because of a spar to be transported to medical.

 

This may seem like not a big deal, but I prommy when you're trying to drag someone from point A to point B, small hallways and paths that require you to take big turns are a huge PITA.

Overall, I think space could be a lot more effectively utilised in this PR. I understand it's a WIP, but I feel the need to put my two cents in given the points that I brought up about accessibility, which are admittedly easily-missable unless you're taking a good look at how the maps are laid out.

A couple other notes:

1. The residential deck page on the wiki states that there are no recreational facilities on the rez deck and the rec area (the gym, the pool, etc) are the only places on the ship that have them. It's easy to fix by just saying there's a gym on the rez deck, however.
2. I want to keep the pool for purely selfish and biased reasons.

Edited March 26, 2023 by La Villa Strangiato
no idea why tf a duplicate of the nu!map route to medical was posted

[kyres1]

40 minutes ago, La Villa Strangiato said:

For example: These points on the holodeck entryway are massive chokepoints, and they seem like the only way to enter the holodeck.

There are visible maintenance entries and, for the southern holodeck (which is meant to be more public, with more windows too) there is a giant 4-door shutter opening. Bridge access also has access to the shutters externally. Are these intentionally overlooked? If they are, why tho

42 minutes ago, La Villa Strangiato said:

a lot less accessible for medical people too

They can walk up the stairs 3 tiles from their front door or, if an FR is in question, maintenance is a 2 tile walk. If the proposed issue is people being in danger and being inaccessible, this is a non-issue. It's on the ship, there is no logic behind making even our most public space easy for wounded to be recovered.

 

53 minutes ago, La Villa Strangiato said:

I feel like "contribute roleplay" is doing a bit too much heavy lifting here. I find the location of the CiC/self-destruct convenient because it means that a command member doesn't have to walk themselves across three decks to reach a very important location where you can continue to do Command Things if the bridge is compromised. Its central position is because it is on the command deck and needs to be accessible to command. It's also close to medical, which I will get into more shortly.

A holodeck and recreational area is a direct roleplay tool that is utilized expressly for occasions that don't require extraordinary circumstances. Like the ship exploding, or active combat needing command in a bunker. Those two things aren't inclusive for the rest of the crew, not even in passing; because one is a literal bunker and the other is a bomb. It is just a point to pass, or ignore, in 98% of rounds, for 98% of people. So I would pretty sternly argue that having these things so close to a trafficked area will contribute greatly to people passing by, and enjoying roleplay together.

The alternative is having these things so distant that you have no reason to pass them in idle work or any activity for that matter. You need an invested goal to visit it; be it to interact with another person/people, or to invite them yourself. The odds of you wandering into the pool area right now and generating anything substantial (as in, fun or, failing that, interactive at the least) is zero because of that.

1 hour ago, La Villa Strangiato said:

I am having a bit of trouble parsing this. What is the "formerly-really-important" roleplay location? Is it the rec room, the holodeck, or the CiC/self-destruct? Are you saying that the holodeck should be in the space that the CiC/self-destruct was?

All that said, the CIC and self destruct are two really unimportant areas. Their layout and location is almost entirely irrelevant to their purpose. The holodeck and the areas now crammed into the holodeck, however, kind of rely entirely on their location to be trafficked, like the reasoning above

[GeneralCamo]

CIC does ideally need to be easy to access in-case of an active combat situation. But I do not mind it being moved elsewhere. I may have ideas on that TBH. 

 

The nuke does not. It was always weird that it was right there at the central ring. It would be better off somewhere else TBH, maybe accessible from the CIC?

[ShakyJake]

As far as the placement of the CIC goes, I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's location is irrelevant to its purpose. Preferably you'd want it to be the very last place that'd get hit by any shells or ship weaponry, so a more central positioning would lend itself better to that. Of course, the Horizon isn't a warship and is already poorly designed for combat survivability anyway, so its definitely not a pressing issue that would warrant it to need to take up premium space better used for more roleplay focused areas.

Since the CIC and self destruct are so unimportant in your average day-to-day activities, and there's currently an issue of figuring out where to put them now, wouldn't it make sense to just put them where the rec wing used to be? A large swath of space was just cut off to get rid of it, could just repurpose it instead to hold the CIC and self destruct. This would probably require the locker room / showers to be reshuffled to make way for a path for those. (Maybe just shift it a bit diagonally up and to the left, and have a hall pass along the side of maints and engie break room?)

Additionally, could wedge a maintenance path between the holodeck and restrooms to provide an avenue to medical from the elevator through maintenance. Not super important but I suppose it could be helpful in niche cases for FRs to reach medical quicker from the elevator there.




Above is a sort of visualization of what I mean.

[Carver]

Any chance we could regain the lost vending machines somewhere? Some windows in maint too, given Rec was a fantastic avenue for antags to enter/flee the Horizon via the windows?

Otherwise, much as I like the old rec area aesthetically, it was sadly rather unused so I won't miss it barring the privacy of the smoking lounge. This remap is nice and maybe will be a good excuse to replace that ugly dance floor in Service with the tree again.

[ReadThisNamePlz]

My only request is that the decks are shifted upwards a few tiles to incorporate more space for the decks. The couch being in a 2 tile wide area is going to be annoying to deal with. Aside from that, I love this and this will be such an awesome upgrade.

[Dreamix]

The Good:

• The different holodeck sets are awesome.
• The holodeck itself is very nice, and currently very underused.

 

The Okay:

• I do not particularly care about the removal of the pool, the gym, and the lounge. They see very little use currently, and could be replaced just fine with holodeck sets.
• I do not really care about the nuke being moved elsewhere. It has absolutely no presence in gameplay, as we do not get the lowRP "nuke ops" that rush the nuke or whatever.
• I do not think we really need two holodecks. Currently they do not see much use - sure, the new sets could change it, but, I honestly doubt they would bring so many users that holodecks would be constantly occupied. I think just one is enough.
• Going with the previous concern, I do not feel privacy buttons are needed. People should share, and a privacy lock only encourages people to lock it for themselves for private RP, not interacting with anyone else for extended amount of time. Especially so if window tints are on, so you can't even take a look inside.

 

The Bad:

• The CIC should be where it is, or roughly there, or maybe put where the nuke is currently. It should be in the center of the ship, so it cannot be hit by other ships aiming at the exterior, and so it cannot be easily broken into from the outside. It should also not be too far from the bridge, so bridge crew can get to it relatively quickly. Yes, it is used very rarely - but if it is in a wrong location, or its layout is bad, it really hurts. We do not want Horizon to be incapacitated by a lucky shot to the bunker during an event, if the bunker is moved to a bad location. I absolutely disagree that the CIC is unimportant, and that its location is "almost entirely irrelevant to its purpose".
• I really feel like the holodecks are way too "tight". Single door entrance, and single tile "hallway" to enter the holodeck, are very much huge bottlenecks. It would 100% be a pain to do things like team games, lasertag or basketball or whatever, with many people constantly help-shuffling around the tight entrance.
• Similarly, I feel the areas around the holodeck are too tight and closed-off. There is just barely enough space to connect the central ring hallway to the washroom and locker room. This remap kinda closes off all the empty space up north from any possible expansions, too.
• Removal of Patience is sad. It was a very comfy and soulful small piece of greenery, and I'd be sad to see it go.

 

The Proposed Solution (?):

• Something like the image below.
• Just one holodeck, but, less tight and cramped overall, CIC in a good place, and Patience lives on.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Dreamix

[Carver]

I rather like having two holodecks more, truthfully. We have so much unused rear wing-space that I really can't see issue with putting the bunker somewhere around the back.

Patience belongs in Service instead of that awful dance floor.

[kyres1]

@Dreamix
Thank you for the visuals, they seriously helped. I opted to keep the double-holodeck scheme for the simple idea that the holodecks would be best repurposed as both an optionally private, and an otherwise public area. So the two decks working in tandem for two different purposes is helpful for this.

Here's the changes to the current mockup;

1. @Dreamix @ReadThisNamePlz Dimensions aren't changed of the actual holofloor, but the "viewing area" is DEFINITELY more spacious.

2. Maintenance is now a consistent loop virtually around the whole inhabited deck, without needing engineering access or shortcuts through trafficked areas.

3. To make room for the adjustments, the shield room is now directly attached to maintenance and the engineering breakroom. This keeps it readily accessible to engineers, and, provided crew have a reason to break in, it's even simpler now (just a welding tool is needed).

4. @Dreamix @La Villa Strangiato The self destruct is now attached to the maintenance behind the CIC itself.

5. @Dreamix @La Villa Strangiato @GeneralCamo The CIC is now adjacent to the crew armory.

6. About 1-2 tiles of space have been knocked off the crew armory to fit this, but the armory itself was really big. There's still plenty of room to stuff a lot of disgruntled employees into.

7. @Carver some vending machines returned vaguely to their previous positioning.

This is the layout;

(I'm aware of visual artifacts in the self destruct chamber and CIC! There's also a missing railing on a catwalk next to the ladder. Those issues will be fixed before I push)

Without lighting;

Spoiler

With lighting:

Spoiler

 

 

[greenjoe]

On 29/03/2023 at 17:11, Carver said:

Patience belongs in Service instead of that awful dance floor.

I've actually had a concept of Patience going where the big holomap thing is in the central atrium, with a little park area there instead. Was thinking about making a PR on it but with all the mapping PRs going on I worry about conflicts.

[greenjoe]

On 27/03/2023 at 23:20, Dreamix said:

following on from my last post, maybe there could be a memorial slab in that corner with the tree, instead of the tree, with the tree instead going in a park in the lower atrium level

[Susan]

There's no security cameras. Why? With the arbitrary alert restriction, it shouldn't be a problem.

I don't see a reason why the holodeck should be able to be turned into a fortress-lite situation with shutters and tinted windows. If your major complaint is that they see no use because no one has a reason to or goes there, hiding behind tinted windows and locked doors won't incentivize people to come roleplay, either.

The 2x2 hallways broken up by a wall block with buttons are weird and chokepoint-y. You could have a 4x4 hallway simply by having the main route be between the two holodecks, with them both pushed up against the walls, making it a lot smoother.

[kyres1]

29 minutes ago, Susan said:

There's no security cameras. Why? With the arbitrary alert restriction, it shouldn't be a problem.

The current holodeck has no cameras inside so I didn't think about it, even though it wouldn't work code-wise. I'll see about adding those to the holodeck sides now since those allow for camera room.

29 minutes ago, Susan said:

I don't see a reason why the holodeck should be able to be turned into a fortress-lite situation with shutters and tinted windows.

The windows aren't shocked. It is basically like locking an office door, which isn't in any scenario a fortress. Just break the window if there's problems inside.

30 minutes ago, Susan said:

If your major complaint is that they see no use because no one has a reason to or goes there, hiding behind tinted windows and locked doors won't incentivize people to come roleplay, either.

This replaces the lounge and entire recreational area, which had appeal as well due to the fact that you could roleplay in a relatively closed-off space while still being in-round. This combines the best of both worlds by making that completely optional through window tinting and door locks.

32 minutes ago, Susan said:

The 2x2 hallways broken up by a wall block with buttons are weird and chokepoint-y. You could have a 4x4 hallway simply by having the main route be between the two holodecks, with them both pushed up against the walls, making it a lot smoother.

I sort of agree. The current design, however, is because the alternative is very open and empty looking - hence adding the small vendor to extend the hallway slightly.

[greenjoe]

This has left somewhat of an oversight: Bridge Crew can no longer access the bunker without assistance from command or engineers

[Dreamix]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/16190

CIC/Bunker re-remap.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Dreamix

[Afya]

Holodecks + Locker room + CIC missing cameras.

[Dreamix]

5 hours ago, Afya said:

Holodecks + Locker room + CIC missing cameras.

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/16209

fixed