Gank & Hostage Situations

[Dzheymz]

I'd like to bring this up since it's somewhat relevant, but if somebody has a bomb and a detonator, with their finger over the trigger, it is basically never a good idea to shoot them, unless their demands absolutely cannot be met. In a roleplaying situation, there is more to it other than arrest bad guy and let the next shift handle the massive fucking hole in the station, especially when you know you very well could lose an arm or worse.

[Guest]

I'd like to bring this up since it's somewhat relevant, but if somebody has a bomb and a detonator, with their finger over the trigger, it is basically never a good idea to shoot them, unless their demands absolutely cannot be met. In a roleplaying situation, there is more to it other than arrest bad guy and let the next shift handle the massive fucking hole in the station, especially when you know you very well could lose an arm or worse.

 

I completely agree.

[Prospekt]

taking hostages is useless, you never win in any situation unless you have more numbers than sec.

Why? Because security or any other buffoon will simply lolrush you and play hero. I've yet to see a single security guard care for the one being taken hostage as long as they are Mr. Hero.

[canon35]

taking hostages is useless, you never win in any situation unless you have more numbers than sec.

Why? Because security or any other buffoon will simply lolrush you and play hero. I've yet to see a single security guard care for the one being taken hostage as long as they are Mr. Hero.

 

I agree here. Most sec players don't give a fuck about the hostage.

[Skull132]

I'd agree that they're useless, but not exactly for the reason you've outlined. They're useless because the entire setup takes an immense amount of effort:

- You need a secure place to house them.

- You need two people per hostage.

- You need to have a concrete idea of what you want, simply saying that "I have a hostage! I have one! Uh... What can you give me?" does not work. They're a tool, use them. Give the opponents a door to go through, that doesn't involve raiding you. (There needs to be a visible goal that they can accomplish, that would result in release. Otherwise, they won't try.)

- They slow you down. You do not want to get slowed down.

With sec not caring about them, I maintain that this can be dealt with if every antag starts properly executing their hostages. And I'm not kidding. Sec gets away with it because they know that in the majority cases, the antagonists do not have proper control over the situation and they are right. However, if you folks start killing hostages whenever sec acts belligerent, then they'll either get the memo, or the people getting shot will make them get the memo.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Guest

[Gollee]

Maybe a coding addition that means if someone who is aiming at someone else; say, a nuke op pointing their rifle at the captain's head; if they are shot; (and or stunned?) They automatically fire one round. That would help prevent Sec just bypassing negotiation.

[Skull132]

If it gets down to that point, then I have a feeling you're already screwed. Although a flinch like that can be coded, sort of like what happens when you're disarmed. Specially when you get hit by a taser. So maybe.

[Killerhurtz]

To be honest, the biggest problem here is the players that play to win. Security bullrushes and antags gank because antags gank and security bullrushes, because that's the meta to win at the moment.

We should focus on teaching antags how to make a fun scenario (and, dare I say, make an antag/security whitelist (aside from cadet) to make sure that the people in those positions aren't idiots.

[Nanako]

If the targeted crew member is in a non-combat role, has no combat training, but happens to be armed and/or attempts to outrobust the antag, they will be investigated under the clause of powergaming.

 

I don't understand this part. As an engineer, am i not allowed to pull out a crowbar defend myself if someone tries to murder me?

i'd like more explanation for this

[Dreviore]

If the targeted crew member is in a non-combat role, has no combat training, but happens to be armed and/or attempts to outrobust the antag, they will be investigated under the clause of powergaming.

 

I don't understand this part. As an engineer, am i not allowed to pull out a crowbar defend myself if someone tries to murder me?

i'd like more explanation for this

 

I think the general consensus is if your character is being held up against 2-3 big guys with guns. What do you expect? That your character is going to bravely rush one of the guys, and beat them with a crowbar?

No. You'll either have a panic attack, or your adrenaline would push you down. Leading to you either running, or collapsing to the ground.

[Skull132]

If the targeted crew member is in a non-combat role, has no combat training, but happens to be armed and/or attempts to outrobust the antag, they will be investigated under the clause of powergaming.

 

I don't understand this part. As an engineer, am i not allowed to pull out a crowbar defend myself if someone tries to murder me?

i'd like more explanation for this

 

Point one, "Investigated", not "punished".

Secondly, while you are allowed to protect yourself, it is still expected you roleplay the character properly. What this means that you shouldn't be seeking to kill the target. If you can run the fuck away as an individual not trained in combat, you should. You should also not actively seek confrontation with someone known to be armed. And if it does come down to fighting, you should be looking to get distance between yourself and the attacker ASAP, instead of, say, killing them.

[Guest]

To clarify:

Killing someone who is actively attempting to kill you first, without initially intending to pick a fight with someone; OK. If you're defending yourself and you didn't provoke an attack, you are technically in the right within the rules, OOCly, to ICly kill someone, and to OOCly take someone out of the round. Keep in mind killing someone should be a last resort or the last thing you'd fall back on regarding a plan of action.

Picking a fight with someone, them attacking you back and then escalating directly to lethals when they retaliate and killing them; not OK. Baiting people into conflicts is shitty, and so is trying to lawyer the rules that try to make death for people a little more bearable.

Outright hunting and killing an antagonist when your skills and duties would suggest that you should not be doing that from an RP perspective (such as validhunt engineering militiamen); not OK.

These cases are assuming you're a non-antag crewmember. Antagonism normally overrules standard RP conventions and expectations if you're a traitorvolutioncultlingpire or whatever. Any other questions?

[SirStem]

So, let's say Baldy McAssistington sees Traitrev Cultlington pull a gun on him, and our hero Baldy is holding a wrench or something. Is Baldy allowed to throw the wrench in desperation to distract Traitrev or make him flinch while he runs away?

[Guest]

That should be fine. Long as you're prioritizing your own survival, then that's ok.

[RussianArmsDealer]

I'm going to have my say, because free speech. Yay.

Roleplay is a broad term, and forcing people to stick with a: "You must act like this, this, and this" mentality limits that. It makes the rounds, for all intents and purposes, in my opinion, BORING.

If someone decides to go: "I'm going to robust someone!" They should be able to go and do that, WITHIN REASON.

What I mean by "Within Reason" is: If you're an engineer. You probably don't know how to use a gun. Don't try and break into the armory and robust the entire station via the stock inside it. That's powergame and simply wrong, unless, of course. You are a syndicate operative. Then there is reason for you to, perhaps, have experience with firearms and combat scenarios.

Yes, roleplay should be enforced, but this is a scripted game. Forcing everyone to comply to a set way to react to a situation is not right, in my own opinion.

If a syndie takes someone hostage, roleplay it out as much as possible, yes. If the security officer is held up and decides to try and risk being a hero, then so be it. Chances are, the syndie would just fill them up with lead anyways. And that's what would happen in all of your "Muh realishm!" Scenarios, in real life. If a security officer went for his tazer against a terrorist IRL, they'd probably be filled with lead and killed. That's what they get for playing hero. If they manage to take down the syndie? Good for them, they're officially a hero.

This is just my opinion on the situation.

[Zundy]

I dunno, in my experience as an antag I get put in a lot of situations where I really should be pop-pop-poppin watching crew men droppin but I stay my hand because I don't want to knock people out of the round for 30mins.

This however, leads to me getting rushed by lab interns and getting beaten down by their awesome kung-fu even when they had a gun pointed at their head. You also see a lot of smack talk to antags as well which would get their heads caved in but again, I stay my hand because I don't want to come across as a dick.

I really think people should learn to fucking RP fear and pain better.

I mean, is it worth adminhelping when some one goes full kommando when they're a nurse etc? Ditto when an antag just lights the place up without a word? Would this be a move towards stopping the gank-bum rush escalation?

[Garnascus]

I dunno, in my experience as an antag I get put in a lot of situations where I really should be pop-pop-poppin watching crew men droppin but I stay my hand because I don't want to knock people out of the round for 30mins.

This however, leads to me getting rushed by lab interns and getting beaten down by their awesome kung-fu even when they had a gun pointed at their head. You also see a lot of smack talk to antags as well which would get their heads caved in but again, I stay my hand because I don't want to come across as a dick.

I really think people should learn to fucking RP fear and pain better.

I mean, is it worth adminhelping when some one goes full kommando when they're a nurse etc? Ditto when an antag just lights the place up without a word? Would this be a move towards stopping the gank-bum rush escalation?

 

Yes, 100x yes. The amount of rambo nurses, assistants, even bartenders we bwoink for trying to collect a valid is too damn high. Really though you CANNOT be afraid to waste some fool as an antag. One wrong move and you're screwed ane even if we punish them the damage is already done.

[Lucychan42]

The only antagonist Aerianna has ever felt "safe" around is Vampires. And that is only because when she's there dealing with one, it's because she's trying to keep them sedated and restrained so any escape attempts piss her off more than startle her.

As for other antagonists? You bet your ass Aerianna isn't tough. One round I came in immediately and was taken as a hostage barely out of the shuttle. It was actually kind of fun and Aerianna complied, fearing for her life and pleading that she'd do everything the antagonist wanted. She wasn't some tough girl, she was scared out of her damn mind, begging to not be killed.

My point is it's reasonable to have a mob courage of "let's keep each other safe!" but it's far from reasonable to bum-rush the antagonist and try to validkill them and play hero. People aren't heroes often in real life, and more often than not they end up dead because they got shot by the criminal.

Definitely adminhelp if some snowflake is pretending he has balls of brass and an entire army behind him. They'll get handled. Admins aren't there to look pretty, they're there to improve the quality of roleplay by ensuring that everyone is maintaining a good roleplay environment.

[UnknownMurder]

The round last night, I assumed Acting Captain and was taken hostage by Kaedwith, Ickthar Slithiss. No one actually 'feared' me dying as I was a bargaining chip for Ssslazhir Yinzr and Korlas. The Ligger Vampire Group. Ickthar Slithiss doesn't tells me the demands which I have absolute authority to fulfill.

Ironically, the Research Director in an attempt to rescue me from the Ligger Group, teleported in then shot me up 5 times, while I was a meatshield for Yinzr. I eventually died out due to small radiation, broken bones, and burns caused by Yinzr and RD.

I will say this, no one does roleplay to a hostage situation. They would think it is more of a "Rainbow Six Siege" hostage, if you know what I am talking about.

[hivefleetchicken]

So, basically, I just had a vampire round a few minutes back.

I had a lot of great RP interactions with my first few kills, a lot of sewing doubt in between people in the brig, and a lot of killing. I even got caught at one point, and was surrounded by half the crew in the permabrig as they were all curious what I was. Eventually, though, I managed to split them up wide enough to take them out individually and silently (sparing the nice ones of course). This is where my doubt comes in, though.

I got into the lobby and took a handcuffed scientist down the fore hall threatening to shoot anyone who got close. Instead of people clearing the way and running, every last one of the crew that I entered the vision of ran at me, shouted at me, or refused to leave. I had to kill or critically wound EVERY SINGLE PERSON that was on at the time (tally ended at about 5/6 in just the central hall) because not a SINGLE one of them was able to RP the fact that someone is dragging a hostage by the neck with a laser rifle in the other hand. Garnascus actually came on and brought it up in LOOC how not a single person was stopping to think before rushing and trying to fight me. They all just silently ran at me, swinging fists, firing tasers, throwing toolboxes, spamming stungloves.

What can we do to make sure this doesn't happen anymore? It got a bit old having to just spam:

"HEY BACK OFF"

"IM WARNING YOU"

"LAST WARNING"

"IM NOT JOKING"

"OKAY ONE LAST WARNING"

"HEY"

"3"

"2"

"1"

And not getting a SINGLE word in return from any of the people I said this stanza to. I don't even think they responded until I did start shooting them.

I'm not mad, just concerned we're getting too close to a 'winning is the only thing that matters' type of setup. And frankly... I can see the players who are influencing its increase.

[Skull132]

I'm curious, how many people you shot at were sec, and how many were random dudelets?

[hivefleetchicken]

I'm curious, how many people you shot at were sec, and how many were random dudelets?

 

Only one of them was sec. The rest of the list was: A cargo tech, a janitor, a scientist, and an engineer.