Add sensors back to non-job clothing.

[Star Dust]

48 minutes ago, Jasorn said:

while i disagree with the whole change, i can understand why it makes sense to have sensors limited to alert levels and even removing PDA/Tablet, but damn removing sensors from non-job uniforms? why? thats vast majority of players, off-duty anyone, and the DRIP? i recommend people in this thread to read the PR and comments following it see how the dev/merging process is, i don't like it as you can tell probably

 

would be nice to consult the other mass majority of the people that play on the server before silently changing this? please stop doing this

 

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/17607

Having suit sensors set to a code level is also extremely crippling so it means if someone is hurt and lost,t hey have to raise the ships alert level to red to find them. So everytime someone gets seriously hurt the ship has to go to red alert and find them.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Star Dust

[Dreamix]

I think these changes are nice. I like when uniforms are used and encouraged, cause they make the ship look like an actual organized ship with an actual crew who represent their corporations and positions, instead of just a collection of random people taken from the street.

I hate the accusations of "punishing" players. No one is being "punished". It is accusatory, and makes it sound like the dev team is personally hunting down people and breaking their knee caps. This kind of toxic talk happens any time a balance change occurs, most notably in the recent medical nerfs and fixes.

This is a balance change, and whether you pick a uniform with sensors or not, is your choice. Same as wearing a cool jacket instead of an armor vest as sec officer, or whatever else. You either like to play it safe and get a uniform with sensors, or prefer drip and to live a tiny bit more dangerously - and maybe stay more cautious as a result, letting other people better geared for the job to do the thing.

Not to mention most jobs are at basically zero risk of dying anyways, like service jobs, or should be wearing the uniforms anyways, like security or command jobs. I would be fine with stuff like corporate branded suits getting suit sensors though, I think that would be a nice flavor thing.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Dreamix

[Star Dust]

7 minutes ago, Dreamix said:

I think these changes are nice. I like when uniforms are used and encouraged, cause they make the ship look like an actual organized ship with an actual crew who represent their corporations and positions, instead of just a collection of random people taken from the street.

I hate the accusations of "punishing" players. No one is being "punished". It is accusatory, and makes it sound like the dev team is personally hunting down people and breaking their knee caps. This kind of toxic talk happens any time a balance change occurs, most notably in the recent medical nerfs and fixes.

This is a balance change, and whether you pick a uniform with sensors or not, is your choice. Same as wearing a cool jacket instead of an armor vest as sec officer, or whatever else. You either like to play it safe and get a uniform with sensors, or prefer drip and to live a tiny bit more dangerously - and maybe stay more cautious as a result, letting other people better geared for the job to do the thing.

Not to mention most jobs are at basically zero risk of dying anyways, like service jobs, or should be wearing the uniforms anyways, like security or command jobs. I would be fine with stuff like corporate branded suits getting suit sensors though, I think that would be a nice flavor thing.

Hello Dreamix, it doesn't matter how safe you act, how cautious you are. With suit sensors being locked on green, all it took was for a warden to make one wrong step only 20 or so minutes into the round to be ambushed by a warrior, killed, and be removed from the round. I simply state this to show that this change feels like a punishment no matter how you slice it. You saying it is not a punishment does not change how it feels, or change what its doing. All it does is give antags another buff when they already have the tools to subvert the suit sensors. Another thing that has deeply upset the community is that this change was done on a barely announced PR, instead of bringing a large amount of light to it, no big vote was held, no giant discussion. Simply a post on a year old suggestion about a PR being opened, and said suggestion already was largely disliked back then.

So I do say this, people will keep seeing this as a kick to the balls to them, and rightfully so.

[Carver]

1 hour ago, Dreamix said:

I think these changes are nice. I like when uniforms are used and encouraged, cause they make the ship look like an actual organized ship with an actual crew who represent their corporations and positions, instead of just a collection of random people taken from the street.

I hate the accusations of "punishing" players. No one is being "punished". It is accusatory, and makes it sound like the dev team is personally hunting down people and breaking their knee caps. This kind of toxic talk happens any time a balance change occurs, most notably in the recent medical nerfs and fixes.

This is a balance change, and whether you pick a uniform with sensors or not, is your choice. Same as wearing a cool jacket instead of an armor vest as sec officer, or whatever else. You either like to play it safe and get a uniform with sensors, or prefer drip and to live a tiny bit more dangerously - and maybe stay more cautious as a result, letting other people better geared for the job to do the thing.

Not to mention most jobs are at basically zero risk of dying anyways, like service jobs, or should be wearing the uniforms anyways, like security or command jobs. I would be fine with stuff like corporate branded suits getting suit sensors though, I think that would be a nice flavor thing.

If it's intended that the loadout explicitly gimps you, then this strikes me as a pure spite PR to try and force people to use uniforms. I don't want to use uniforms, a lot of them simply look bad to me or had really questionable design decisions (the PMCG highlights that almost got applied to a couple PMCG uniforms and were forced on the Phalanx uniforms) that render me a slight more averse to them. It reminds me quite a lot of when borgs were kept after a decision, and then thoroughly gutted by the people who wanted them removed to the point that they may as well have been removed anyways.

[Sycmos]

I am in universal, unshakeable support of reversing this PR. It's an absolutely terrible change that does nothing but harm player creativity.

9 hours ago, Gem said:

definitely in support of this. i brought this up in the PR, but never got a response.

 

there technically was a feedback thread, but it wasn't really posted anywhere. link for reference.

The fact that the only "feedback" thread we have for this PR was a discussion that did not allude to or have the attached PR, which has more than a dozen thumbs down and many comments against the change since its inception, tells me enough about how it was expected to be received that it should be reversed on principle. The absolute lack of transparency on merging this PR is offensive. 

[DatSamTho]

1 hour ago, Dreamix said:

I hate the accusations of "punishing" players. No one is being "punished". It is accusatory, and makes it sound like the dev team is personally hunting down people and breaking their knee caps. This kind of toxic talk happens any time a balance change occurs, most notably in the recent medical nerfs and fixes.

I'm sorry, but I feel like you're completely misunderstanding what is being said. Games are in large part, built on incentives (rewards) and disincentives (punishments) that push the player to play a certain way, eg. enemies dropping pick ups in the new Doom games incentivizing aggressive play, or one bite = one death in Project Zomboid disincentivising aggressive play, and taking risks while unprepared.

I am not saying the developers are punishing players, I am saying the game is. This PR has made the game disincentivise (or punish) using clothing that is not your work uniform. Please don't act like we're out here witch hunting devs, we're talking about the change that was made, nothing else.

And while I get your point about uniforms being used, it's clearly a niche position, that most of the player base, as seen in the thread, don't really agree with.

[Arrow768]

It seems that at this time it is not possible to have a civil discussion about this topic.

As such the topic will be locked for the time being until people have cooled down and can express their opinion without accusations of spite PRs, ….
I also want to point out that the decision to merge this was a unanimous decision by the maintainers.

In addition the admin team will go through this topic and hand out strikes where needed.

[MattAtlas]

Some people here have gotten the wrong idea about why this PR wasn't merged for so long. I'm seeing some very farfetched theories (that we waited on purpose?). What actually happened is that most of the maintainer team is often really busy and we handle PRs in bulk. There were 12 maintainer discussion PRs yesterday with some made even a year ago, with all of them being handled at once yesterday (the git log is proof of this). It is really just bad faith to claim that we were "avoiding community feedback" when in reality this is just us taking a long time to handle these things due to real life.

[wowzewow]

22 hours ago, La Villa Strangiato said:

I'm big-time in support of sensors being on all pieces of clothing because some of the uniform sprites are kind of... just okay. They're not bad from a spriting standpoint, they just don't always suit everyone's character, which is why "sprite new ones" isn't really a good comeback.

For example, I have a character who wears shorts that I've flavoured to be "Sekhmet Intergalactic shorts", because wearing long pants with Zeng-Hu legs looks a little goofy;

It's similar if you want to play a consular or corporate liaison; there's a lot of clothing options that might look better on a character than their default uniform, especially when it depends on species!

This also means that Vaurca Gynes can't ever have suit sensors, because if I'm seeing the code right, none of their clothing that bears their hive or nation colours comes with suit sensors attached.

This is actually against the rules. It is not allowed to name custom items after departmental uniforms.

If there are any missing suit sensors, or alternative uniform types that are lacking, then please request for them to be made.

[DatSamTho]

Bumping this topic due to the discussion picking back up in a new topic. I still stand by what I said in the body and the replies.

[rrrrrr]

I don't have any strong feelings on suit sensors because I remember what the game was like without them. Frankly, there's no real difference. People used to be better at calling out their location if they needed help and, thankfully for some, sensors have removed that need. Let yourself go to crit, who cares. The paramedic will arrive with his mix of ten-thousand chemicals that will resurrect the dead, solve world hunger, and bring your ex-husband back. I'm gonna go out on a limb here using the sole example given by Star Dust of no sensors actively ruining the game, destroying his crops, burning down his village, and poisoning his wells.

On 07/12/2023 at 03:58, Star Dust said:

With suit sensors being locked on green, all it took was for a warden to make one wrong step only 20 or so minutes into the round to be ambushed by a warrior, killed, and be removed from the round.

The problem in this example is less "Jim Warden had no sensors because we were on Code Green!' and more "Jim Warden was brutally mauled by a random event mob that's boring to fight before he could call out his location for help." This is because greimorians are a literal chore. They are a chore. They are the game's equivalent of brushing your teeth... and in the far-future year of 2465, brushing your teeth, uh, kills/maims you if you're unprepared. Cool. (Note: I have never died to greimorians! This is because I know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, and know when to run!)

Ignoring the fact that the ship is regularly beset with infestations of highly virulent bug monsters that lay eggs inside of people and eat your face, what people should be asking isn't "was removing suit sensors a bad idea," it should be "is fighting greimorians actually fun or is it the equivalent of jingling keys in front of people's faces so they don't get bored?"

[Star Dust]

I standby all of my older comments, remove suit sensor code locking and bury the idea.

[Acetrea]

As a medical main, I am also in support of this PR being reversed. I don’t enjoy the way it feels like I’m having to choose between player creativity and potentially my characters life. Uniforms being the only piece of clothing with the sensor puts my character at risk, as she looks terrible in scrubs, and instead I opt for a dress shirt and pants. Same with Captain Artemis Grey, who loves to wear business professional with heals, skirts, dress shirts, and blazers. It puts countless other characters in risk as well. If actual organized Crew member outfits are wanted, then make it law like for Security. I don’t see why a ship who hopefully gives a smidgen of care for their crew would not give all access to Suit Sensors to protect them. 

Antags have access to many things to stop suit sensors from showing, either from their tools or by wearing a mask, holding a gun against the guy in maintenence, and manually turning them off. Having them code locked seems an unnecessary nerf. Being able to see sensors on green helps those who struggle with simplemobs (including myself, I’m not a good fighter. Ask Sparta how long it takes me to chase her and tap her). 

Limiting the suit sensor program to consoles forces someone to sit in the box, which isn’t fun. Also there are a lot of times in Medical when it is all hands on deck and on code red we just cannot spare a person to sit in the box. Interns need to bandage, watch meds, do scans with the physicians, FRs are out at the scene, Surgeons are fixing broken bones, saving a Sec from near brain death, all so they can go out into the field again and try and win against whatever we’re in red for. 

[Codename: Bear]

I think suit sensors should be player choice and barring that players should have an option to select an item that they can sync with medical/security to help be found in case of emergency. 

[Acetrea]

I've created a community poll for this:

https://poll-maker.com/poll5064535xC88c40eA-154

Edited December 30, 2023 by Acetrea

[Carver]

4 hours ago, Acetrea said:

I've created a community poll for this:

https://poll-maker.com/poll5064535xC88c40eA-154

Your poll site doesn't check for IP or any significant unique identifier.

[Noble Row]

6 hours ago, Acetrea said:

I've created a community poll for this:

https://poll-maker.com/poll5064535xC88c40eA-154

A lot of those votes happened at the same time and the only way to view the results of the vote is to add an additional vote. There's a little chart at the end that shows you when the votes happened.

[DatSamTho]

19 hours ago, Acetrea said:

I've created a community poll for this:

https://poll-maker.com/poll5064535xC88c40eA-154

The poll is also a bit vague. This topic is about suit sensors specifically missing from non-job clothing. The poll refers to "suit sensors change". The wording for the second option is a bit vague, and yes, 25 people voting for one option at the exact same time is a bit suspicious.

There's an option for community polls to be done on the actual server, (It's visible in the lobby screen) I'm not sure if this is big enough for that to be utilised, but it's barely ever used.

EDIT: And yeah, you can literally just open the page in incognito mode to vote multiple times

Edited December 31, 2023 by DatSamTho

[Arrow768]

As you can see the majority of the votes are in favour of it.

So we keep the changes as they are.

 

On a more serious note, there is a reason why we dont poll like that.
If we want to poll this topic we will do it using our existing polling system.

[Acetrea]

Then can someone else kindly make one? Would be a lot easier than telling me everything wrong with the one I posted. This topic was made quite a while ago and it seems to be at a standstill. Thanks. 

Edited January 2 by Acetrea

[Acetrea]

On 31/12/2023 at 07:39, DatSamTho said:

The poll is also a bit vague. This topic is about suit sensors specifically missing from non-job clothing. The poll refers to "suit sensors change". The wording for the second option is a bit vague, and yes, 25 people voting for one option at the exact same time is a bit suspicious.

There's an option for community polls to be done on the actual server, (It's visible in the lobby screen) I'm not sure if this is big enough for that to be utilised, but it's barely ever used.

EDIT: And yeah, you can literally just open the page in incognito mode to vote multiple times

Also, this topic has turned into a conversation on everything that was changed in the Suit Senser PR. When someone opened another topic about the whole PR, it was locked and archived because we already had this one.  It’s hard for the 2nd option to not be vague without putting a million options for what we should change. The point of the middle option is meant to be a medium between “completely revert” and “keep this change.”

Looking at the polls tab on the lobby screen, I’m not actually seeing a way to make one. Just a white screen with the words “Player Polls” and no button to create. The verbs “poll” and “polls” don’t open a menu to create any. Do you know how this works?

Wouldn’t having a poll done on the server limit the answers to only the people playing at that moment?

In this case, I think the best course of action then should be someone with permissions to post in the Announcement channel of Discord do a poll and use reactions. The Suit Sensor PR has caused quite a bit of discussion and I believe the situation warrants it. 

Edited January 2 by Acetrea
Polls

[DatSamTho]

12 hours ago, Acetrea said:

Looking at the polls tab on the lobby screen, I’m not actually seeing a way to make one. Just a white screen with the words “Player Polls” and no button to create. The verbs “poll” and “polls” don’t open a menu to create any. Do you know how this works?

Wouldn’t having a poll done on the server limit the answers to only the people playing at that moment?

Server polls can only be made by admins, and they aren't like an in-round vote, they can be up for a set amount of time, i.e. like a week or two.

[Hepatica]

I echo others' sentiments in that the removal of sensors from non-uniform outfits is unneccessary. I have no problem with sensors being code based, it has ups and downs to it, but removing sensors from non-uniforms only punishes people for trying to have a unique and creative look. It doesn't really help antags in any way as we already have the code-locked sensors for that. One could argue that the Horizon is a workplace therefore uniforms should be mandatory, but they're not, and it's also a game, there are countless examples of sacrificing in-universe accuracy for gameplay purposes. I don't see any reason why sensors on non-uniforms shouldn't be one of those examples.

[MattAtlas]

Sensors have been added back to all clothes.