Bite intent

[NebulaFlare]

Request: Strictly for certain species, melee combat while aiming at the arms or throat, will make a 'bite' flavortext, instead of clawing. Clawing will still be applied for all other parts of the body. The damage should be the same for the sake of balance.

Applies to: Unathi, Tajara, and Vaurca

Purpose: To make certain species more alien and less human, by adding beast-like characteristics to them. Imagine a human getting into a fight with one of these races, then finding that they'll use their sharp teeth to defend themselves, instead of just claws. Your coworker is a feral monster!

Now, I want to make this very, VERY clear: The goal is to make them more ALIEN. Not furry. I am expecting we can act with acceptable behavior while discussing the logic of adding/denying a bite mechanic, without diverting straight into furry banter. I personally have nothing against furries - but Tajara are NOT furries. They are aliens with fur. Since the very beginning, our loreteam has taken the time necessary to draw the line and separate our Tajara from Bay Tajara, and they have done a wonderful job. They are a species with their own culture. I want to see that culture become a little more varied from generic humans.

Why?: These three species have sharp teeth. Unathi are purely carnivorous, and Tajara, while omnivores, were historically once carnivores. Both came from hunter backgrounds. It wouldn't be a far stretch to argue they'd use their teeth as well. They're not humans, after all.

It's out of the ordinary for a human to use teeth in a fight, unless it's absolutely life or death. But these species are not humans, and they came from hunting ancestors. Humans evolved from a primarily scavenger ancestor, with a heavy reliance on vegetable matter. As for the other races, I do not see them as being biters. IPCs have no mouth (Even if we bring shells back, I doubt people will build them with a bite function, with how much fear there is on Synthetic uprising), Diona would probably strangle, Skrell are so very passive in nature - and probably don't have sharp teeth, and vaurca already do things with their mandibles.

Mechanics: If we want to add more meat behind this idea, we can add specific mechanics instead of a simple flavortext change. For example: Tajarans must be in an agressive double-grab, switch to harm intent, aim for neck, and then bite. Unathi can be in a single-agressive grab, aim for neck, and bite. This could at least mechanic-lock the bite and be seen more in the norms of society.

Personally, I have three Tajara, and I can see all three of them, if push comes to shove, resort to teeth in a fight. That doesn't mean they go all savage at the single provocation - heck no. They have their own ways of dealing with such antics. But if they managed to get a good hold of somebody who had been waving a weapon at their loved ones, I could see them going for a bite.

Feedback on this. Give reason to make it for or against this argument.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Guest

[ArcBot]

Vaurca already have this, unless it was removed.

[canon35]

Make it possible for humans too, but only in red or crit. Otherwise, I like the idea of making the other species seem more feral and dangerous. This has my support.

[Fire and Glory]

I think this could end up being a bit off in the case of limbs, the legs are awfully low for someone to bite (and you can't actually claw legs, it's just standard-damage kicks for there and enhanced-damage claws for everything above-belt), and the arms aren't exactly decent targets to bite either.

But I do like the concept behind it.

[hivefleetchicken]

No.

No encouraging Tajara to tear people's jugulars out with their teeth for saying 'cat', please.

[Guest Menown]

https://youtu.be/VNzgDgdmRK4?t=1m27s

Only if humans get it too. Either way. It'll be used for grief, powergaming, ect. We've seen this with the bats, the whole 'chewing off your hand' shit, ect. Admins will deal with these people. Players will use it for those purposes anyway. Your choice.

[SierraKomodo]

I think what Neb was suggesting here was nothing more than a change in the text that describes what the character did - I.e. instead of saying punches or claws, it says bites. Otherwise, same damage model and everything. Am I understanding this correctly?

[NebulaFlare]

I think what Neb was suggesting here was nothing more than a change in the text that describes what the character did - I.e. instead of saying punches or claws, it says bites. Otherwise, same damage model and everything. Am I understanding this correctly?

 

Pretty much, yep. If the dev team wants to go into really nitty gritty stuff, we could offer ideas like a grab>bite makes the teeth sink in, and drag the person around. Trying to resist would cause the wound to tear open.

However, I fear that will garner some negative views of the two races being OP. Even if Tajaran have less robustness (I think?) than humans.

[SierraKomodo]

My understanding of current Tajaran 'robustness' is that they do more damage but take less of a beating in the brute damage department in comparison to humans.. And are much weaker to burns.

[NebulaFlare]

My understanding of current Tajaran 'robustness' is that they do more damage but take less of a beating in the brute damage department in comparison to humans.. And are much weaker to burns.

 

Yep, that. Sort of like glass cannons.

[Carver]

I'm going to be upset if humans are completely left out of this.

 

 

 

 

It's out of the ordinary for a human to use teeth in a fight, unless it's absolutely life or death. But humans evolved from a primarily herbivore diet. Even if we're omnivores, we can easily switch back to vegan diets.

Feedback on this. Give reason to make it for or against this argument.

Bullshit. Humans have a generalized dentition, that is, our teeth are arranged for an omnivorous diet. The closest comparison our teeth have is to those of primates, whom are also omnivores, with our closest relatives being known for eating smaller animals as well as other primates. We were never herbivores, but as with any omnivorous species we merely eat what is most readily available, whilst we hunted for larger and more filling meals. Agriculture changed this for a time, but it also brought along the breeding of livestock for meat, and hunting still remains to this day.

tl;dr: We're one of the most successful predators on this planet, due to our methods of hunting which relied on tracking and tiring out the prey over periods, we would also gather along the way to keep ourselves fed during these times. Humans are pure omnivores through and through.

[Zundy]

Humans avoid using teeth because we have hands. We can risk losing a finger but putting your eyes and brain near a thing is always a bad idea. It's the same reason we don't chest pump each other in fights.

It stands to reason that all races in our setting wouldn't go for bites because of the same reason. They'd get fucked up.

But that's IRL. If your adding bites add it to all.

[Carver]

But that's IRL. If your adding bites add it to all.

Agreed.

Bites are generally good as an element of surprise type deal, anyways. Someone who repeatedly tries to bite you is going to get something sharp in the throat.

[NebulaFlare]

It's out of the ordinary for a human to use teeth in a fight, unless it's absolutely life or death. But humans evolved from a primarily herbivore diet. Even if we're omnivores, we can easily switch back to vegan diets.

 

Bullshit. Humans have a generalized dentition, that is, our teeth are arranged for an omnivorous diet. The closest comparison our teeth have is to those of primates, whom are also omnivores, with our closest relatives being known for eating smaller animals as well as other primates. We were never herbivores, but as with any omnivorous species we merely eat what is most readily available, whilst we hunted for larger and more filling meals. Agriculture changed this for a time, but it also brought along the breeding of livestock for meat, and hunting still remains to this day.[/size]

 

You and I are both correct. Early humans were omnivores, but their diet was heavily vegetarian. I said primarily, not entirely. There's a lot of debate on how much meat was a thing, but the general idea is depending on where the human was - they'd primarily forage plant matter because that was easier to come by, depending on the surrounding environment. Areas where humans lived that were cooler were generally closer to a meaty diet, while places more tropical were closer to plants.

Our canines aren't designed the same way as other animals either. Somewhere in the past I read an argument where our canines were better designed for tearing tough plant matter, and our digestive track is more suitable to plant-based diet than meat. We're closer to a vegetarian diet with meat bits tossed in here and there.

 

Humans avoid using teeth because we have hands. We can risk losing a finger but putting your eyes and brain near a thing is always a bad idea. It's the same reason we don't chest pump each other in fights.

It stands to reason that all races in our setting wouldn't go for bites because of the same reason. They'd get fucked up.

But that's IRL. If your adding bites add it to all.

 

If you get in a fight, you protect your head, not just the brain. It's for eyes, nose, and jaws. That head is important, and you don't have a protruding snout with sharp pointy teeth to use anyway. Humans will go for bites strictly in a life-and-death scenario. That's being on the ground and being dragged off, with punches and kicks of little to no use. If you DO get up close and personal, it's logical to go for headbutts - your skull is a very sturdy, and can wind someone like a decent battering ram. Hurts, yes, but a few seconds can go a long way. And, we actually have headbutts.

In sport fighting, heads are often off-limits because of the permanent damage that can be received. But if a human aims for the neck or limbs, what do you do? You grab for them. You don't bite.

But Tajara and Unathi aren't humans - they're aliens. Who's to say that this line of thought will be the same for thes species? They have sharp teeth, a strong chomping jaw, and their injury-prone parts far away from harm. Heck, trying to punch for their head would be a bad idea, because they could retaliate and bite the hand off, if they don't block it successfully.

 

Agreed.

Bites are generally good as an element of surprise type deal, anyways. Someone who repeatedly tries to bite you is going to get something sharp in the throat.

 

Tooooo many zombie movies.

Again, the goal is to make these two species more alien to humans, by introducing a biting mechanic. Giving it to humans would just be moot.

Unathi have a cultural norm of biting each other too. Two unathi that trust each other can bite the underside of the other's neck.

[hivefleetchicken]

Ehhhhhh, no thanks.

As Tajaran loremaster this isn't something I'm comfortable with seeing in the Tajaran race at all. They are not feral wendigo harlots, and if they plan on using their teeth, they are to be considered mentally ill like a human would.

[Ornias]

Important note: In an actual street-fight, biting is not only a valid tactic but sometimes the only viable one (and I imagine most fights in SS13 are desperate no-holes-barred brawls). I've done it in the past, and it saved my skin.

Personally, I'd like it if this happened sometimes when one party was down on the ground aiming for the mouth or something. That way, it is more of a "hey, that's bad-ass" and adds character to the alien species, rather than a common occurrence.

[Carver]

If it's only being extended to aliens then I effectively see it as pointless furry crap. If you give it to everyone (With the only reasonable exception being IPCs due to a complete lack of mouths) as an 'emergency tactic' then it'd be reasonable and make quite a bit of sense, look at the various extra intents in lifeweb as an example of what would be good to offer everyone, kicking/biting/etc.

[Skull132]

It's out of the ordinary for a human to use teeth in a fight, unless it's absolutely life or death. But humans evolved from a primarily herbivore diet. Even if we're omnivores, we can easily switch back to vegan diets.

 

Must resist urge to call complete bullshit. Okay I can't. A developing human will die on a vegan or vegetarian diet. We are omnivores 100%.

Tangent aside. Bite intent is dumb. A snowflake intent for a singular purpose (combat) is stupid. The most I could see if making it a move in hand-to-hand combat. Because, in order to actually bite someone and do damage, you need to have them already in an aggressive grab and fixed. Otherwise, there's absoloutely nothing stopping them from dodging and then punching you in your muzzle.

[Kaed]

I would like to see unathi being able to bite.

I also don't understand the mentality people have that making races have unique mechanics is 'snowflaking' and shouldn't be allowed. Humans and Unathi are not the same. They will have physical capabilities the other doesn't.

If water and swimming were an actual mechanical thing in the game, would people cry snowflaking and powergame potential if skrell could manage it better than anyone else?

 

No.

No encouraging Tajara to tear people's jugulars out with their teeth for saying 'cat', please.

 

What makes you think this will appreciably change their behavior? They don't need teeth for that...

 

[Guest]

If it's only being extended to aliens then I effectively see it as pointless furry crap. If you give it to everyone (With the only reasonable exception being IPCs due to a complete lack of mouths) as an 'emergency tactic' then it'd be reasonable and make quite a bit of sense, look at the various extra intents in lifeweb as an example of what would be good to offer everyone, kicking/biting/etc.

 

Basically, yes.

To explain how bite is handled in LFWB, it's all entirely contextual. Toggling on bite will have different interactions for certain things, MMB with Bite toggled on will allow you to drink from water sources like a disgusting animal rather than just dipping a mug, cup or flash in the water to fill it and drink like a civilized being. Biting as a human is mostly ineffectual and nobody does it because it's gross.

However, bite is amplified for the following: Vampires, werewolves, and zombies. Vampires have a specific toggle to flare their fangs out, in which their canines grow in sharpness and have the ability to drain blood to satiate and fill vitae. It's pretty lethal, as they can easily succ someone's blood out entirely and make them a lifeless, pale husk.

Werewolves are kinda along the same lines but they can only feed when the blood moon's alignment calls them to hunt. They become savage, unrestrained beasts with a single goal: kill everything. Their bites are amazingly powerful and their jaw power is absolutely incredible. In LFWB, the only way to satiate werewolf hunger is to bite at someone's throat and suck their blood out like a vampire would do for prospective cattle. Bites are much more offensive-focused than it is for vampires. Werewolves may also slash at the lower body and rip someone's guts out and cause their intestines to spill out of their stomach. Werewolves may also devour organs in a prospective human's chest and such. There's a lot of nasty shit you can do, and it's absolutely amazing.

Then we have the unliving walkers, in which zombies can bite any body part and deal a fair amount of damage with it. Any damage suffered by a zombie will cause you to get infected and eventually your brain will succumb to the need for meat, and you're now a zombie. Zombies can also bite someone's head and consume BRAINS for the sake of unrotting themselves, fully restoring organs and making your complexion more human and less zombified. Their bites are not as robust as werewolf bites are, but still pretty terrifying if they manage to eat your brain, which would kill you instantly.

My point, though. The way LFWB handles bite is for the sake of immersing certain roles or fates with certain mechanics to make them interesting and deadly on their own while also encouraging environmental immersion. These situations genuinely allow for interesting situations to happen and arpee to spawn from it.

But the baseline SS13 we have is so amazingly limited in mechanics and it's effectively a child's game when you compare it with Lifeweb. So the way that "bite" is presented, it's just only for furshit edginess rather than adding any additional depth to the game.

Also, Skull, you're a shitlord for stating biological facts.

[Dreamix]

I'd imagine that xenos employed by NT are civilized and have their claws and teeth curbed so they can't do ridiculous shit, and they aren't some wild beasts with feral instincts and shit. But that's just me.

So, everyone or none.

[Kaed]

I'd imagine that xenos employed by NT are civilized and have their claws and teeth curbed so they can't do ridiculous shit, and they aren't some wild beasts with feral instincts and shit. But that's just me.

So, everyone or none.

 

I can guarantee you no unathi would let you file down their claws or teeth, if that's what you're implying. Also, 'civilized' is an entirely subjective notion, unathi still do a lot more fighting than humans do. You cannot expect them to behave the same way in a fight as a human, and as carnivores, they have a mouth full of deadly weapons that I can't imagine a reason why they wouldn't use in a pinch. However, the only situations I can see them using their teeth in a reasonable matter would be situations where they are unable to do so, due to coding restrictions, such as being pinned down or handcuffed. Due to how SS13 is coded, you cannot take any actions if your hands are disabled, even actions you would realistically be able to do, such as kicking or biting or stomping. Had we a more sophisticated mob code, I would find it hilarious that security officers cuff and muzzle (ala a dog muzzle, not the shitty ballgag muzzle in game) aggressive unathi during arrests to prevent bitey.

That aside, I have no objections to things with teeth being able to bite, but I only have interest in unathi as a species.

[hivefleetchicken]

I would like to see unathi being able to bite.

No.

No encouraging Tajara to tear people's jugulars out with their teeth for saying 'cat', please.

 

What makes you think this will appreciably change their behavior? They don't need teeth for that...

 

Because I remove Whitelists for that kind of bs. Tajara are supposed to be subversive in secret if anything, and instead that translates into inflated cliques harassing players for entire rounds for mundane reasons like "you arrrrested ourrr frrriend for a legitimate crime, that makes you, like, a fucking rrrracist". I stop this wherever I can, and adding in a new mechanic to support this feral aggressive rubbish is like you pouring gas on a fire that's burning down my house and saying, "trust me mate this is an immersive idea"

So no thank you, the Tajaran race will have to do without them.

The Unathi are all show offs and white knights by culture, so I can see them pulling off this shit trying to look edgy and tough and it actually making sense. Not for the kitties though.

[NebulaFlare]

Oh, good heavens.

Okay. I've gone ahead and updated the original post, explaining things a bit more further in detail. Go ahead and skim it over again since a few things were addressed and changed.

FIRST: Vegetarianism/Veganism is not unnatural. I was primarily-vegetarian/pescatarian for over ten years of my life. I lived. You gotta do your research, but you can live a very healthy, proactive lifestyle without meat. There are actually health benefits for cutting meat out of your diet and replacing it with healthier protein-based plant products. It's not so strange as so many people make it out to believe. Truuuuust me.

Biting is not to make Tajara more furry. Nooooo. But, I concede - people brand new and unfamiliar with Aurora lore are going to see it this way. But I hope our community had been entrenched enough in the Tajara lore to understand this is not the intent at all. I'll admit - I am very naive of the furry community. I know nothing about them. In my eyes, biting is a strictly animal-like behavior, and the goal was to add a spice to these aliens and make them completely out of the norm.

@Hive: I haven't seen that behavior from tajara since I came back, really. They're pretty passive because of their culture, yeah, but M'Sai were once hunters. Can't you trust the current whitelist holders not to go pure feral at just being called a catbeast? They'll go through the means of filing incident reports first. They'll talk it out before claws come out.

[Carver]

Biting is not to make Tajara more furry. Nooooo. But, I concede - people brand new and unfamiliar with Aurora lore are going to see it this way. But I hope our community had been entrenched enough in the Tajara lore to understand this is not the intent at all. I'll admit - I am very naive of the furry community. I know nothing about them. In my eyes, biting is a strictly animal-like behavior, and the goal was to add a spice to these aliens and make them completely out of the norm.

The furry community loves to go for the whole 'animal-like behaviour' shit. It's the most cringeworthy thing you can possibly witness. It doesn't at all make them alien to make them more like animals. My entire beef with this suggestion is that it's being arbitrarily limited for the sake of 'being alien', when it's not at all impossible for humans to bite as well, and to cause quite a bit of nasty damage and pain. Perhaps skrell may have issues biting /hard/ due to their anatomy, and IPCs certainly couldn't bite at all, atleast not with the current TV-head limitations, and the plants seem to lack mouths, though I'd imagine Vox have the nastiest bite of all.

But overall these limitations just strike me as snowflake nonsense for the sake of 'being different', when it's completely unrealistic to have said limitations since most all of our species do have functioning mouths, and would be able to bite someone well to at the very least cause some manner of pain (Skrell - Even hardened gums or whatever they have nowadays would leave a nasty mark and cause a lot of pressure) to moderate bleeding and damage (Humans, Custom-built/high-end Shells, Tajarans - Considering how they're built, I don't see Tajarans having enough pressure in their bite to cause the massive 'hand-losing' damage you'd expect, they're not lions or tigers) and to heavy trauma/nerve damage (Unathi, Vox, Vaurca - Big builds and gator bites, horrifically sharp beaks, and massive cyborg-ant strength and mandibles)

 

FIRST: Vegetarianism/Veganism is not unnatural. I was primarily-vegetarian/pescatarian for over ten years of my life. I lived. You gotta do your research, but you can live a very healthy, proactive lifestyle without meat. There are actually health benefits for cutting meat out of your diet and replacing it with healthier protein-based plant products. It's not so strange as so many people make it out to believe. Truuuuust me..

Not taking the bait, not taking the bait.

 

Heck, trying to punch for their head would be a bad idea, because they could retaliate and bite the hand off, if they don't block it successfully.

Biting prosthetic (Or well-armoured, in the case of hard/voidsuits, vaurca plating, tac armour, or particularly hardy riot gear) limbs would cause massive pain and potentially cracked teeth for the biter (Aside from Vaurca), whilst having miniscule effect on the limbs. Reflex biting is a b-a-d idea, and locking or fucking up your mouth on someone's armoured/metal limb leaves you open for retaliation.

Steel > Bone