Implausibility of learning skills ICly / actual difficulty of station jobs

[Fiskap]

Have you ever tried to expand a character's skill set ICly, or perhaps start them out in a new field from scratch via the apprentice jobs?

That's what I tried out with my current main character, Fumiko Murakami, currently a 18yo engineering apprentice (formerly a cargo technician), with arguably worrisome results.

This character started out as a cargo technician with 8 skill points: perfectly average, according to the system. All her skills were plausible so no one ever questioned this. For possible further analysis I'll just put them here:

Command: Amateur

Cooking: Amateur

Close Combat: Trained

EVA: Trained

Construction: Amateur

Heavy Machinery Operation: Amateur

Amateur command comes from past personal experiences prior to NT employment, amateur cooking is a basic life skill and she has some pre-NT job experience in that field, trained close combat comes from training martial arts for 5 years, trained EVA is because she wanted to get her license before coming to work in space, amateur construction comes from high school subjects and minor projects at home, amateur heavy machinery operation comes from being trained to use supply exosuits before being hired as a cargo technician.

Again, this seemed plausible enough to me. No one cared either.

After playing this character for a month, she got tired of her current position (despite that I love cargo OOCly) and wanted to abandon it forever in favor of engineering, to potentially start a career in that latter field. After gathering information on available station apprenticeships she starts out as an engineering apprentice on the 1st of November, as there are no real requirements for these positions.

Since this character had gained some renown over the course of a month, some people reacted to this job change but after a couple of days, no one cared again. This had become the new status quo.

On the first shift I inform the rest of engineering that I only had EVA training, basic exosuit operation training and basic knowledge to use most hand tools along with some skill in carpentry. They seemed to be okay with this, and almost immediately pushed me to expand my skill set.

That same shift she is taught how the engineering outpost works, specifically being taught to wire solars at first. Following the engineer's instructions, she manages to wire the solars with a few OOCly intentional mistakes, but it ends up well. Would it really be that easy? Be taught how to lay down a bunch of wire for the solars, and be expected to know it well enough to do it by your own the next time?

Then comes the computer to configure the solars, she's taught how it works, how to use it and that's it.

Then come the outpost SMES. ICly that seemed to be more complicated which was reflected by her reaction, but she's taught to just adjust a few settings on it and suddenly, she's supposed to know it well enough. That's probably when I really started to question the plausibility of all this, so I started to write down her new learning history in a textfile. I started to question if operating a SMES is really that simple, even if it's explained.

Outpost atmospherics come later, which was basically more of the same: adjust the potency on this digital pump, adjust a few settings on this computer and little else. Questionable for me, but she was trained by a skilled crewmember of the engineering department so I just went with that.

The engine came up on the next shift I believe. Of course I wouldn't have had her try this out on her own with her very limited engineering knowledge, so she gets synthetic help for this. She's just told that she needs to grab protective gear, connect the gas canisters to their ports with the supplied tubes, configure a few digital valves again. Press a button at the monitor room to turn on the emitter, then turn it off again. And suddenly she's supposed to know the engine at a basic level?

Arguably "easier" stuff came later in the form of hacking, being taught how multitools work, how to access airlock wires, airlock functions and the such. The same knowledge was passed over to work with other equipment such as air alarms and APCs and eventually I decided that this knowledge was good enough to figure out hacking the rest of electronic devices on the station via trial and error. Really the most realistic stuff I had encountered.

A bunch of stuff comes up later during the course of almost 3 weeks, like being taught how to do the engine again since I roleplayed confusion the first time, installing shield generators, doing more basic atmos like pipe laying, sealing up minor hull breaches with metal and more. Basically, engineering as a whole.

For all this time I had considered to this be at least partially implausible, but today I really wasn't able to endure this and felt the need to talk about this on the forums.

By being taught ICly how station systems and equipment work, along with extensive practice on the station, she has been able to nearly gain the entire practical skill set of your average engineer. More often than not, she's even more competent than these actual engineers when it comes to some stuff.

Again, an 18yo apprentice that is nearly as good as a normal engineer by now. Most of the station by now knows that she's just 18 and an apprentice, but she has never been confronted about it, people basically don't care about it. People in engineering don't care either, believing that she's qualified enough to work with most of the station's systems just by being taught how it works and tons of practice.

This might be a failure at roleplay and character development by my part, for assuming that someone could potentially learn these skills that fast, even if experienced engineers teach her how everything works.

Or perhaps the fault is not mine, and the rest of the station, particularly engineering is to be blamed for assuming she's capable enough to do that work after being taught a couple of times and working a few weeks? Again, no one cares: chief engineers, other engineers, anyone in command, no one at all. She just works, while no one questions anything.

Mind you, I did try to limit the gaining of new skills over all this time. Basically she has never touched anything without being taught how it works yet, for instance: upgrading a SMES or learning how to repair a wall for the first before asking for guidance or a lesson would be nearly unthinkable. And I tried to keep her out from anything involving too complicated wiring, telecomms or advanced construction (thankfully she still doesn't know that at all).

Thing is, how difficult are the ingame skills really supposed to be?

I believe that this is mostly a mixed bag, stuff like robotics or surgery would definitely be insanely difficult and practically impossible to learn after just a few lessons. Weapons expertise and close combat can be learned but it takes time to get good at that. Same with cooking and botany. Medical as a whole is difficult too. And I'm certain that chemistry/virology/genetics/R&D isn't just "pushing a few buttons and getting results".

But engineering? Another mixed bag. Basic atmospherics like using air alarms, air pumps, repairing basic piping and using the gas ports could be as simple as the game depicts, while using some of the more advanced atmospheric equipment could be supposed to be more hard. Or basic wiring for the station and solars being that simple (despite that only a few electric components are present in the game), while wiring more complex stuff like computers or advanced machines would be clearly harder to get right. Stuff that involves consoles (shields, SMES, RCOn), who even knows anymore.

How much of that could be learned on your own, and how much of that can be mastered easily with someone's help and a lot of practice? Who knows, since this type of information is never really specified anywhere, other than assuming that some of that practical stuff is supposed to be complicated than the game depicts.

"But Fiskap, why does this matter? You're only playing her in engineering right now.", is probably what many of you are thinking by now. Thing is, what if she wants to work in another department? Thankfully she doesn't want to go back to cargo or even consider security/medical, so there little room to expand now. But imagine how much this could be exploited if she did decide to get new skills in security, medical or research. Within a few months I could end up having an absolutely ridiculous, overpowered Mary Sue with +20 skill points.

Any character could exploit the apprentice jobs to become a ridiculously overpowered Mary Sue and have the perfect IC justification for it. Imagine your average doctor suddenly deciding that he wants to learn some practical knowledge in engineering and joining as an engineering apprentice, then ends up being just as skilled as a normal engineer after a few weeks or months. The rules do try to limit this somehow, but what if it makes perfect IC sense and returns back to medical forever after that?

I do know that these positions are for training, but I'm not sure if the pace or results of this training was sensible. Currently like I said, she has good knowledge in engineering after only 3 weeks while no one in engineering or the station cares too much. Only I really care enough.

You often see security cadets getting IC training for close combat and weapons expertise which might be fine, or people getting EVA training, lab assistants learning how R&D works etc. People then don't seem to care too much if that crewmember ends up sticking with that new knowledge, which is similar to what I did, but really not the same. Engineering is also very obviously harder, but it narrows down to the same thing: new skills being acquired ICly.

Currently she has 10 skill points, above average. I added one to atmospherics and electric engineering and should probably add more to engine and construction, which would already get me to to the Exceptional range. Wow, clearly bordering overqualified Mary Sue status by now. The character was not designed to work in engineering, this is basically character development gone potentially wrong.

So, thoughts? Did I fuck up by unrealistically getting her to learn too many skills, despite that people often pushed her to learn? Are other characters being unrealistic by thinking that she would have no problems in sticking with that new knowledge and getting the work done decently right, with some OOCly intentional mistakes to reflect that she's not an expert?

Really, just post your thoughts here because this isn't something you see way too often.

[Loow]

Really, just post your thoughts here because this isn't something you see way too often.

 

Yeah, fam. Just pretend to be clueless. "I mean, I get the general idea, but like... so can you do the engine or... I mean like... If I do it, I'mma fuck up proper, let's be real knowwhatimsayin'?"

You made some cool points and this was a fun post to read.

Just have that kiddo play the "Son, I dunno how the fuck this shit works" card and get those lazy fuccboys to do work while you help.

[Faris]

Really, just post your thoughts here because this isn't something you see way too often.

 

Yeah, fam. Just pretend to be clueless. "I mean, I get the general idea, but like... so can you do the engine or... I mean like... If I do it, I'mma fuck up proper, let's be real knowwhatimsayin'?"

You made some cool points and this was a fun post to read.

Just have that kiddo play the "Son, I dunno how the fuck this shit works" card and get those lazy fuccboys to do work while you help.

 

I feel like the issue is that not everyone can properly think of whether this person is picking said apprentice role to learn the mechanics of the job or that they want to play someone with inexperience or youth.

[veradox]

its a pretty bad problem having internships that can't act clueless or with people who don't want to act clueless. so long as someone an apprentice i'll probably never ask them to do anything except solars or pull some shit; im pretty sure there was a problem where someone's engineering character ended up getting well versed into engineering but was still only like 18~19 so attempts at forward progress were super halted which was a little depressing.

the thing that's hard about ss13 rp with RP oriented explanations and mechanical functionality but with a straightforward accomplishment process is that once you learn it, you usually don't forget it and you'll just get better every time you do it. best way to nerf your knowledge a little bit is to just pretend like you're clueless, yeah. that or do half-assed work.

[Zundy]

Just roleplay not knowing? If we can't handle that maybe time skip so your character actually ages? After like a week on the job your character shouldn't be so qualified certainly unless.you time skip.

[Garnascus]

Roleplaying deficiency in any form is exceedingly difficult. The game does not do a good job of helping either, in fact it only makes it harder. The vast majority of jobs are just "click until its done" and rely on the player to fill in the gap. I have always erred on the side of "this is a video game". If we want to get super technical then wiring solars and learning how the outpost works would absolutely not be something you could learn in one shift. Definitely not something you could replicate after having been shown how to do it once. Although i do not necessarily mind it so long as you arent learning entire departments in one shift as an intern. that is something that would take years. that is without swapping from another department too.

It also has to make sense and fall within the "believable characters" clause. A cargo tech suddenly deciding to become an engineering intern is a lot more believable than a xenoarcheologist suddenly switching to security.

[TheGreatJorge]

I will probably say what I have in mind about this.

First, as far as I may aware there are things IRL you can totally do after being told, because they are just following steps, even if they are part of more complex whole. Pushing few buttons in an order, checking components for specific signs of damage or soldering stuff (and the SS13 version of following steps, like setting up SM). Now while you were told what to do in the lab and you can do it, you are still not allowed to enter the lab itself, because you are not qualified, you do not know the theory behind it and you dont know how it actually works. The stuff school will teach you, so that employers do not hire trained monkeys, but actual engineers. Fumiko can setup a station shield generator all fine. But I doubt she knows how it works.

Then the thing about caring. Its not like people would not care. I think people do care. But not enough to do something about it. And I personally left that part to you (at least I hope I did). Given I had no idea this whole thing was an experiment.

And last thing, the part about exploitation of this whole learning system.

(I hope what I will say was nowhere in the text, might have missed it, but it is obvious anyway)

The example with doctor deciding to join engineering. It seems like speed and question of learning SS13 mechanics ICly and not OOCly. I mean, the doctor can sure learn all engineering stuff, but ICly it would take (as it was stated already) signifcant time and effort. But OOCly you can sure learn all engineering stuff in a while, if you don't know it already.

Now, the whole problem of SS13 is, yeah. Just pushing buttons (again, as it was stated already). If you somehow managed to make engineering work less plain and more complicated, it would probably help this problem, but it would also make this everyday clicking for everyone else just more tedious.

So, yeah. I guess points for you for doing this, but you may well take part of the blame with you.

[SierraKomodo]

Alot of this I think could be looked at similar to an employee who doesn't know diddly squat about computers working in an office on a computer. You can be taught how to do specific tasks, but anything outside of that specific task and you're lost and need constant guidance. I actually have a coworker like this so I think I've got some good first hand experience on how this would actually be portrayed. Said co-worker even bugs me for the exat same task/issue multiple times even though it's already been explained about.. 20 times now. Yeah, it's annoying, but it's expected when someone is new to something and worried about one mistake ruining everything. Also: This coworker has been doing this job for 2 years now and still asks questions.. Some examples from your post:

 

I started to question if operating a SMES is really that simple, even if it's explained.

Your character was specifically taught the steps to set a SMES for outpost solars. So, you now know how to turn input/output on/off, and change the input/output levels. Your character wouldn't know much if anything else about how to operate the SMES, what all those other fancy buttons do, what power levels are ideal and when, why certain power levels are ideal, how to optimize the SMES, etc etc. And that's not even getting into dismantling and upgrading the parts.

 

Outpost atmospherics come later, which was basically more of the same: adjust the potency on this digital pump, adjust a few settings on this computer and little else. Questionable for me, but she was trained by a skilled crewmember of the engineering department so I just went with that.

Same thing as above. This is, relatively speaking, actually really simple when you think about it. You turn a valve to a specific value as defined in your training, you perform a specific task on the console. Any other tasks that console can do? You're clueless on those. Why do you set the valve to that specific value? What does that actually do to the pipes? You're also clueless, you just know that's what you have to do.

To emphasize: Knowing how to do a specific task, and understanding a specific task, are two entirely different things. Any amateur can do something if given step by step instructions, but you'd need to be more of an expert to /understand/ the process you're following and be able to deviate from it to get better performance out of the equipment.

[SierraKomodo]

In fact, to build upon my last post with an example from one of my characters: Ziva Ta'kim. Ziva's a mechatronic engineer, which puts her in robotics. Alot of people assume she knows robotics as a result of that (And probably because her cousin is Karima). Does she? Nope, not diddly squat beyond engineering-grade maintenance such as fixing wiring or doing chassis repairs. She also knows how to replace and install specific modules, but only because that (Rather basic) information was provided to her by her cousin and 'Robotics for DUMMIES' guides she's read. This makes her an amateur at robotics in my books.

Now, if we get into mechs, that's an entirely different ballpark for this character She already has a degree in engineering itself, has experience working on shuttle craft, stations, and mechs, and could break down and put together a mech on her own without too much trouble (It'd be like a gun expert breaking apart, cleaning, and putting a rifle back together without needing to following a step-by-step guide, or a car enthusiast rebuilding an engine on a frame). This makes her an expert at heavy machinery.

[TrickingTrapster]

Yeah, what Sierra said. Pushing a few buttons isn't hard, no matter how complicated the machine itself. If you understand the machine, you know WHY you press those buttons, but you're not doing anything radically different than when you didn't know. You don't have to know what the supermatter crystal is composed of, or that it kills you if you touch it. All you need to know is that it's the power source and that it works if you follow specific steps to set it up.

Likewise, with SMESes. The whole installing coils thing will need guidance, but all you are doing when setting the power is... Pushing buttons.

Different department example: Firing guns as security. Firing a gun isn't hard, you pull the trigger. Aiming, and consequentially, hitting someone with said gun, that's the hard part. Pulling the trigger (read: pushing the button) is not hard at all.

And even surgery, if you strip it down to the bare bones, isn't that complicated: You cut them open with a knife, you fix them, you close them up. Yes, untrained people will hit arteries, make bad cuts and forget anesthetic, but that doesn't mean the actions themselves are hard. The difference is that a trained surgeon actually practiced and mastered it, so the patient does not die.

And finally, even science isn't too hard (at least research). You can tell any lab assistant: Here, take this thing I printed, put it in the thing and then *push the button*. Robotics? Oh, just push this button behind the one labeled "robot". There, parts. Not to diminish any need of training, but like Sierra said, getting a step by step guide from a book or trained personnel will make you able to do tasks like that. The theory behind it is what differentiates monkeys from personnel.

[Zundy]

Wait so is the common consensus that it's possible for a character in game to know all the jobs in a functional way by 19? Further, is the common consensus that because doing things mechanically IG is a simple click of a button, that all actions are actually IC that simple?

[TrickingTrapster]

Noooo. No. A 19 year old character can not have plausibly been a cadet, an apprentice, an intern and a lab assistant. They may have picked up something of other departments (using a flash, knowing useful materials for science, dismantling simple things like racks and tables, knowing first aid.) but they can just not have received all that training. You need to apply, email back and forth with an employer, get an appointment to discuss your CV, et cetera. What we ARE saying is that a 19 year old can know how to do /most/ things in a single department on a need-to-know basis (filling circuit imprinter with sulphuric acid for science, laying cables/set the engine for engineering, using flashes/handcuffs/proper arrest procedure as cadet (though rn officer has 18y/o age requirement), setting cryo tubes and have proper medical equipment as medical intern, generally setting things up.) but they can't explain to anyone how it works, or why it works, just that it works. And probably isn't optimal either way.

As for actions being simple ICly, some actions just /are/. Setting a digital valve is literally just pushing a button or two. Knowing what to set it to takes theory, but actually doing it is pushing buttons. Just like the microwave, dispensers and vendors, science machinery, robotics machinery, guns, shields, and the list goes on. Knowing what buttons to press is the hard part, not actually pushing it. Plus, half of any job is common sense (you don't point that gun on yourself, the bandage goes over the wound, the air stays IN the pipes, these machines need materials to make things.) so you could do a bit of guesswork. Though, keep in mind that knowing how to do something doesn't immediately mean you're capable of doing the job. Knowing how to cook doesn't make me a chef, making a table doesn't make me an engineer and knowing how to apply a bandage doesn't make me a doctor, for example.

[SierraKomodo]

To add on to what TT said, another IRL example:

You have a factory with various employment positions including: Engineering level positions (operation of machinery, putting shit together, etc), security level positions (Night watch, guard, etc), maybe even basic medical (First aid responder in case someone gets their arm stuck in a machine).

This factory will have people installed in all three positions, alongside supervisor/management positions. Now, security and engineering level positions would have apprentice/entry level jobs that's basically 'Walk this route and report anything suspicious' or 'use this machine, press these buttons and follow this guide'. Just because it's stupidly easy to do either job doesn't mean people will be hired on and actually do both tasks. If you're hired as a button-pusher, and you're instead wandering around the factory, you're gonna get fired. If you're hired to patrol and you start pushing buttons on a machine, even if it's as per a guide, you're gonna get fired.

[Nikov]

What, no mention of the one Chief Engineer who called you into his office, sat you down with your employment record, looked you in the eye and accused you of being a Syndicate plant?

[coolbc2000]

May I ask a question here then.

Do cadets/apprentices and whatever the fuck... DO they....Go to school? They don't just head to the Station for the day, learn a thing and go back home. They study what did they that day, or they go to a Engineering School, Research Lab, anything so they can work on what they did that day.

For example, Germany has the perfect system for apprentices. You spend three days in the Company you are working for at the time, and two days in School where you will learn what you did in those three days, how to improve on what you /perhaps/ did wrong, and what not.

So...How is it then? Because I doub't they just....Go home and sit on the couch and play video game- Oh wait....

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Station engineers have the following qualifications.

Qualifications: At least 25 years of age, applicable Bachelors degree or 7 years experience

You can learn how to do all that stuff as an apprentice, but stagnant there until your characters gets their bachelors or you play for 7 more years.

[SierraKomodo]

May I ask a question here then.

Do cadets/apprentices and whatever the fuck... DO they....Go to school? They don't just head to the Station for the day, learn a thing and go back home. They study what did they that day, or they go to a Engineering School, Research Lab, anything so they can work on what they did that day.

For example, Germany has the perfect system for apprentices. You spend three days in the Company you are working for at the time, and two days in School where you will learn what you did in those three days, how to improve on what you /perhaps/ did wrong, and what not.

So...How is it then? Because I doub't they just....Go home and sit on the couch and play video game- Oh wait....

 

The way I see it, barring security cadet which canonically is just a 1 month academy course type thing.. The intern/apprentice/etc positions would be for people who are in the later phases of their education and need to get X years of internship or residency in order to graduate as per the college's requirements. In the case of engineering apprentice, it may also be someone who instead of going through traditional schooling, is undertaking some form of equivalency exchange through the Apprentice/Journeyman/etc ranks

[Xelnagahunter]

Along the same lines with a different example.

I was playing my Captain, a security background character with basic emergency engineering training as would/should be standard for anyone in a space faring Navy.

Malf AI wanted a reset for one of their units, Sec was already disabled and the only other heads I had alive were HoP and CMO. Robotics was also empty, so the captain was demanded to perform the task due to allowances on his ID. I tried very hard to RP this as something he had NO clue how to perform, even though robotics was one of my first jobs in the game. It was all I could do to convince the AI and cyborg ICly that he didn't know how to operate the machines properly nor how to properly install the reset module. The cyborg I was trying to convince in LOOC as well. The AI took to telling the crew they would die if I didn't complete the task and the rest of the crew started telling him it was easy and that any 4 year old could do it.

opening a robot, not damaging wiring or existing machinery, and installing the module, should not be that simple though. The printing of the device I could get cause buttons, but not the installation. In the end I just had him do it justified my IC and OOC stalling to type as representative time it would take someone without the knowledge to perform.

Our community can, at times, make it seem like the game's mechanics are as simple as the click actions they take.