Delete Combat Module; Give Security Module Red Alert Unlockable Items

[Surrealistik]

Per the title.

Roll the functionality of the Combat module into the Security module, such that while there's a red alert in effect, the Security module gains access to additional items/gear. Once the red alert is over, those items are immediately unequipped, and locked.

EDIT: I should specify that the usual heads sign off would still be required in addition to the red alert.

I don't see the need for a separate Combat module; beyond being redundant, the fact that you need to get a module reset compromises response times when they're most crucial, and sometimes utilizing the Combat module is even impossible if the Roboticist and other qualified personnel are dead (or don't exist); totally possible and perhaps even likely in the event of a red alert situation where 2 head ID swipes are involved.

Lastly, the Combat module further more requires yet another module reset after the alert has passed.

In general it's a horribly inefficient and illogical system compared to Security module items that unlock (and relock) contingent on red alert status + head authorization.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Guest

[Lohikar]

Combat is separate for a reason; it's designed to be hard to get.

As-is, it requires both Red Alert + heads ID swipe, or robotics installing a Crisis unlock module.

Rolling it into the security module would kind of reduce the efficacy of these balancing mechanisms.

[sonicgotnuked]

I honestly see no need of this. It used to unlock combat borg right on code red. Now it is changed so you need a second swipe for combat module. You don't really need to enforce a lock/unlock function for code red because all you need to do is order them to get a reset off of combat. If they don't, they are breaking their laws.

[Surrealistik]

I should specify that the usual heads sign off would still be required in addition to the red alert.

I don't see the need for a separate Combat module; beyond being redundant, the fact that you need to get a module reset compromises response times when they're most crucial, and sometimes utilizing the Combat module is even impossible if the Roboticist and other qualified personnel are dead (or don't exist); totally possible and perhaps even likely in the event of a red alert situation where 2 head ID swipes are involved.

Lastly, the Combat module further more requires yet another module reset after the alert has passed.

In general it's a horribly inefficient and illogical system compared to Security module items that unlock (and relock) contingent on red alert + head authorization.

[UnknownMurder]

You probably weren't here for this.

This was to prevent the Cyborgs to, "PLEASE RED ALERT SO WE CAN BECOME KILLING MACHINES". Cyborgs shouldn't really be asking for this at all. There is a reason why there is a difference between Combat Module and Red Alert.

[Scheveningen]

Unnecessary. Combat module is for the specific purpose of killing hostile threats to the station. The security module is for pacification and non-lethal purposes only. To compare between the modules, it is the difference between a soldier and a peacekeeper. Soldiers are given license to kill. Peacekeepers are not.

[Alberyk]

Nope, combat borgs are not getting access to stun weapons, besides the basic flash.

And they are just to be used in certain situations, unlike sec borgs that can deal with crew and non-crew in pretty much all situations. Besides, if you really want lethals as sec borg, get an illegal module from robotics.

[Fiskap]

The current system is fine as it is.

[Chada1]

As much as I would like to use the Stunbaton, taser, and cuffs, with the suite of lethal weapons, instead of being forced to Kill Everything, this feels kinda forceful and too powerful/convenient for 'borgs. That said, some people avoid Combat (Literally just me) because it's nothing less than a valid-happy Module, try RPing as it, I dare you. The only RP you can do is shooting someone dead. As for avoiding it, there are IC means, for instance, I can do that just by citing that my Positronic Brain is incredibly old and only compatible with an older NanoTrasen chassis, (Of which, the Chassis or Sprite isn't available for Combat) as reason for why I can't. Which, i'll say, isn't necessarily breaking your laws, since you're still serving and protecting to the best of your CHARACTERS ability. It's not an OOC thing. It's an IC thing. So please recognise the border between the laws (IC) and OOC. You can't expect a Robot with very limited ability to self-think to 'Serve' and 'Protect' in the same way or effectivity as a self-thinking and self-aware Android or Cyborg.

I went off on a tangent, but Surrealistik, this is my feeling, but i'm mostly just talking about the IC/OOC/Laws thing with Sonicgotnuked over this as opposed to you. Nothing you said is relevant to that part.

 

I honestly see no need of this. It used to unlock combat borg right on code red. Now it is changed so you need a second swipe for combat module. You don't really need to enforce a lock/unlock function for code red because all you need to do is order them to get a reset off of combat. If they don't, they are breaking their laws.

 

But those are my opinions on it up to that point.

EDIT:

RIP, I misread. Seriously RIP, Sonic you were talking about resets OFF OF Combat, not onto. DAMN IT! My explanation of IC vs OOC when it comes to laws is true, but ENTIRELY Irrelevant now! WOOPS!

[Skull132]

No.

Not only would it buff sec borgs to a stupid degree (at which point, they'd become even more valid on sight for antags), it would be repeating a mistake we cleared up. The restrictions imposed upon the availability of the combat module were put in place after a few months of active playtesting. The module used to be easier to acquire than it is now, you'd basically see one running around almost every time red alert was called. This was not the best for balance, and thus, the module was made harder to get via it requiring more fine grain controls.

Srsly, sec borgs are scary as fuck to begin with. Combat borgs too, though their lack of stun puts them into a harder box when it comes to how they can apply their force. Removing that box would be. Bad.

[Surrealistik]

In otherwords, you don't want to blend the two modules essentially due to OOC considerations, because ICly, the current set up makes essentially no sense.

That said, the only difference in difficulty of obtaining the Combat module items under this proposed system would be not requiring a module reset (which again makes little sense ICly; you're going to substantially delay response times and risk the impossibility of running a combat module in the event of a Roboticist or equivalent's absence for what reason exactly?); you still need red alert, and you still need multiple head authorizations.

The OOC arguments I don't find especially convincing; sure, giving the borg more tools on a conditional basis increments its power, but those tools are roughly on par in terms of their ability to put down an antag (barring an antag immune to stuns obviously) as the taser requires about as many hits to soft crit as the laser does to hard crit. Further, does that modest and alert appropriate increment in power really outweigh the RP advantages of being able to leverage non-lethal force as permitted? As Chada has noted, the Combat module basically demands straight up murderboning, which is probably not so great for a high-RP server which isn't supposed to be about validhunting so much as immersion, realism and mutual experience, and in these crucial respects, alert and head gated Combat module items are superior to the status quo.

Lastly, in terms of the role of Sec Borgs as peacekeepers, sure; they're as much peacekeepers as Sec Officers, and like Sec Officers, they should have access to escalated levels of force, including lethals, as the alert and circumstances prescribe.

[LordFowl]

You will find often that OoC considerations carry more weight than IC considerations in the avenue of mechanics; were it not so, the game would be rather unplayable as we think of it now.

There is a great distinction between the tools of security and the tools of combat borgs - combat borgs are strictly lethal tools, and for the majority of antagonists a borg can't apply these lethal tools except for extreme circumstances. Furthermore, it makes the switch from regular to combat borgs a tactical decision rather than a no-brainer - if security borgs had access to BOTH nonlethal and lethal tools, as well as mobility upgrades and plasmacutters, when code-red was called, why wouldn't you call code-red all the time? Best of both worlds and all of that.

Nothing demands straight up murderboning. If a combat borg cannot effectively utilize their tools without killing everything in sight, without providing a satisfactory conclusion to the RP (As killing or being killed is not a bad thing in an RP scenario), then perhaps they should do as Chada does, and restrain themselves.

Borgs are not meant to be perfect models of their organic counterpart - they are meant to be very good (thanks to their virtual unlimited and undisarmable tools) but very limited (thanks to the fact that those tools are all they're ever going to get). Broadening the toolset of the securityborg just because "Security borg must equal security officer!!!" is contrary to this design guideline.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

What you want to do, in essence, is make it incredibly easy to get captain-level access security officers with high-end weapons of which are triple the speed of everyone else, come equipped with shields, and can only be reliably stopped with heavy weapons and/or ions?

Bear in mind that even though we are a roleplay server, this is still a game. OOC considerations are not moot just because your personal preference is otherwise.

Combat borgs are heavily sought after because synthetic players are notoriously bloodthirsty, on average. It would provide no benefits to roleplay or community interactions to toss them out like candy.

And I can't even see an IC reason for it because... Why would you do that? Are you ASKING for an AI rebellion?

[Surrealistik]

You will find often that OoC considerations carry more weight than IC considerations in the avenue of mechanics; were it not so, the game would be rather unplayable as we think of it now.

There is a great distinction between the tools of security and the tools of combat borgs - combat borgs are strictly lethal tools, and for the majority of antagonists a borg can't apply these lethal tools except for extreme circumstances. Furthermore, it makes the switch from regular to combat borgs a tactical decision rather than a no-brainer - if security borgs had access to BOTH nonlethal and lethal tools, as well as mobility upgrades and plasmacutters, when code-red was called, why wouldn't you call code-red all the time? Best of both worlds and all of that.

 

To be clear, I'm not asking for the passive benefits of Combat borgs like sanic speed; just the item based tools.

Second, those extreme circumstances are still required for these lethal capabilities to be deployed; the only difference is that a module replacement isn't required.

Third, I'm not sure what your point is on the red alert status; indeed, why not call red alert all the time in perpetuity regardless of the circumstances so that Security can be Shitcurity/StalinSec every round and roll about the station with flashbangs, armor, sec hardsuits, combat shotguns, lethals, etc?

 

Nothing demands straight up murderboning. If a combat borg cannot effectively utilize their tools without killing everything in sight, without providing a satisfactory conclusion to the RP (As killing or being killed is not a bad thing in an RP scenario), then perhaps they should do as Chada does, and restrain themselves.

 

Let's face it; the practical matter is that the design of a combat borg in a red alert + situation strongly encourages murderboning; maybe that's appropriate to the situation, but you really have no alternatives as such a borg, even if the opportunity would otherwise present itself for the use of non-lethals if you had them. In general it's better to keep an antag around than gank/gun him down with utmost expedience.

 

Borgs are not meant to be perfect models of their organic counterpart - they are meant to be very good (thanks to their virtual unlimited and undisarmable tools) but very limited (thanks to the fact that those tools are all they're ever going to get). Broadening the toolset of the securityborg just because "Security borg must equal security officer!!!" is contrary to this design guideline.

 

Because of overpowered stuff like flashbangs, chloral (and other chemistry and sci products they can actually use and borgs can't), beyond having access to tools and such, as well as the relative lack of truly decisive hard counters to them should they use all the capabilities available to them, a robust powergaming Sec Officer is generally going to be stronger than a robust Combat borg even if the latter is stronger out of the box, and this is doubly true of a Security borg who is a mere sprint and flash away from being rekt. Personally I don't think they're anywhere near balanced against each other when the potential of a Sec Officer is properly considered; it's more about that than it is about some arbitrary parallel. Overall I don't feel that their limitations are adequately rewarded in light of their vulnerabilities and weaknesses; this is true of most borg modules in general; they're specialists that are often beaten out by their generalist counterparts at their own supposed focus.

[Skull132]

In otherwords, you don't want to blend the two modules essentially due to OOC considerations, because ICly, the current set up makes essentially no sense.

 

As has been pointed out by Fowl and Sackboot, yes. Absoloutely. I will not implement a decision which has now been proven to be detrimental to gameplay balance for the sake of realism. Because that's an amazing way to ruin the actual game aspect of our 2d spaceman fart simulator. Even though we are a HRP server, I still firmly believe that the game and its mechanics are still very relevant, and cannot be discarded simply because, "We should all know how to RP, so yeh, just don't abuse the million and one things!"

 

That said, the only difference in difficulty of obtaining the Combat module items under this proposed system would be not requiring a module reset (which again makes little sense ICly; you're going to substantially delay response times and risk the impossibility of running a combat module in the event of a Roboticist or equivalent's absence for what reason exactly?); you still need red alert, and you still need multiple head authorizations.

 

Those restrictions exist due to a proven need. We ran a 2 month experiment with combat borgs being restricted to red alert and requiring a module reset (a more lenient system than now), and it negatively affected gameplay. There's really not much to say here. We have proven that quickly accessible combat borgs are detrimental. This is why they're a bit of a pain to get. That's how balance works: you're only meant to bother with them when you have an absoloute need.

In general, you also seem to overlook what makes borgs powerful as sin in a roleplay environment. While the mechanical possibilities you outlined exist (flashbangs, CH, etcetera), they're held behind administration enforcement of the roleplay rules. If a security officer rushes to chemistry, gets CH, and then rushes nukies alone. Please do adminhelp that, he's most likely going to be short a few roles on the next round. Borgs, however, lack the requirement for fear, and their lawset quite easily enables them to engage in skirmishes with confirmed hostiles alone. They also lack pain and other feelings. This is why they are very, very scary for antagonists: because they can legitimately, RP wise, ruin your day 8/10 times. (Though, in response to this, people can nuke borgs easier, because hey, RP wise, they're just machines!)

Now, why don't we just do your change and force similar rules onto borgs? Because it's not practical nor reasonable. It would basically require removing the expendable borg aspect from borgs, by telling them to stop if they try to handle situations at their own expense. Or we'd need to establish arbitrary rules to curb their usage of weaponry in code red cases. Neither of these are reasonable, which is why we simply use mechanical restrictions in this case. They don't require us to establish arbitrary rulings to make sure balance is in check.

Last point. Because I missed this while writing the address above.

To be clear, I'm not asking for the passive benefits of Combat borgs like sanic speed; just the item based tools.

 

This makes it apparent that your desire is a golden middleground without major flaws and major bonuses. Which is not what asymmetric balance is about. And SS13 is basically asymmetric balance: the game. It favours extremes and niche applicability. As long as something is not too niche to ever find usage (which it most likely isn't, combat borgs do still get use out of themselves), it's most likely fair. Golden compromises which can do everything good enough are not something befitting SS13.

[Surrealistik]

As has been pointed out by Fowl and Sackboot, yes. Absoloutely. I will not implement a decision which has now been proven to be detrimental to gameplay balance for the sake of realism. Because that's an amazing way to ruin the actual game aspect of our 2d spaceman fart simulator. Even though we are a HRP server, I still firmly believe that the game and its mechanics are still very relevant, and cannot be discarded simply because, "We should all know how to RP, so yeh, just don't abuse the million and one things!"

 

The solution I'm proposing hasn't even been tried.

 

Those restrictions exist due to a proven need. We ran a 2 month experiment with combat borgs being restricted to red alert and requiring a module reset (a more lenient system than now), and it negatively affected gameplay. There's really not much to say here. We have proven that quickly accessible combat borgs are detrimental. This is why they're a bit of a pain to get. That's how balance works: you're only meant to bother with them when you have an absoloute need.

 

Again, the difficulty of accessing those tools is fundamentally the same; the difference is you don't need a module reset.

Balance in this case works both in terms of how effective or not something is at dealing with antags, and how it compares to a Sec Officer; external and internal.

 

In general, you also seem to overlook what makes borgs powerful as sin in a roleplay environment. While the mechanical possibilities you outlined exist (flashbangs, CH, etcetera), they're held behind administration enforcement of the roleplay rules. If a security officer rushes to chemistry, gets CH, and then rushes nukies alone. Please do adminhelp that, he's most likely going to be short a few roles on the next round. Borgs, however, lack the requirement for fear, and their lawset quite easily enables them to engage in skirmishes with confirmed hostiles alone. They also lack pain and other feelings. This is why they are very, very scary for antagonists: because they can legitimately, RP wise, ruin your day 8/10 times. (Though, in response to this, people can nuke borgs easier, because hey, RP wise, they're just machines!)

 

For my part I feel you are underestimating the relative power of Sec Officers, just as you underestimate the flexibility of humanoids generally vs borg counterparts. Sure, it may not make RP sense for some characters to engage nukies/antags like a one man army, but there are others who may have an appropriate characterization for doing that. Essentially you are relying on inconsistent RP considerations rather than mechanics to stop them from being more powerful and robust than a Sec or even Combat borg could ever hope to be.

 

Now, why don't we just do your change and force similar rules onto borgs? Because it's not practical nor reasonable. It would basically require removing the expendable borg aspect from borgs, by telling them to stop if they try to handle situations at their own expense. Or we'd need to establish arbitrary rules to curb their usage of weaponry in code red cases. Neither of these are reasonable, which is why we simply use mechanical restrictions in this case. They don't require us to establish arbitrary rulings to make sure balance is in check.

 

But you effectively use arbitrary rulings to moderate Sec Officers apparently, when they could have RP justifications, especially on Code Red when the situation is desperate, to go full Duke Nukem. Furthermore, with 2+ heads required to unlock the Combat borg items, I don't see why arbitrary rules would be needed to curb usage of their weaponry. The existing and very real flaws and detriments of the Sec borg are certainly enough to balance them out both externally (vs antags) and internally (vs their Sec Officer counterparts), even with that access and a lack of explicit additional rules.

 

This makes it apparent that your desire is a golden middleground without major flaws and major bonuses. Which is not what asymmetric balance is about. And SS13 is basically asymmetric balance: the game. It favours extremes and niche applicability. As long as something is not too niche to ever find usage (which it most likely isn't, combat borgs do still get use out of themselves), it's most likely fair. Golden compromises which can do everything good enough are not something befitting SS13.

 

Not at all. There is still asymmetric balance; the borg still retains its crippling vulnerabilities (including a lack of speed vs the distinct Combat borg module), hard counters and lack of flexibility in exchange for high out of the box power and specialization. Even with my proposed changes, a well equipped Sec Officer is still more powerful in balance.

[Skull132]

specialization

 

Give the security cyborg guns on code red.

 

Bud. Really.

 

Again, the difficulty of accessing those tools is fundamentally the same; the difference is you don't need a module reset.

 

Objectively false. "I get guns whenever code red is pressed," is infinitely easier than, "I need someone to press the "Give guns" button, then trot over to robotics and get a module switch board."

 

But you effectively use arbitrary rulings to moderate Sec Officers apparently, when they could have RP justifications, especially on Code Red when the situation is desperate, to go full Duke Nukem.

 

You shift your focus from IC to OOC too much. Those "arbitrary rules" that are enforced upon Sec Officers are standards of roleplay. If you go full Duke Nukem on code red as a security officer, you are not adhering to the standard that our administrative staff enforce upon you. The standard stemming from the fact that humans generally experience fear, pain, anxiety, etcetera in a combat situation, and do not wish to (in most cases) rush in to certain death. Also boundaries of knowledge and so forth apply. For borgs, as I've explained, a lot of these inhibitions do not exist. As such, any restrictions would be arbitrary and exist for gameplay balance purposes.

 

Not at all. There is still asymmetric balance; the borg still retains its crippling vulnerabilities (including a lack of speed vs the distinct Combat borg module), hard counters and lack of flexibility in exchange for high out of the box power and specialization. Even with my proposed changes, a well equipped Sec Officer is still more powerful in balance.

 

Implementing your solution would greatly reduce the lack of flexibility. While asymmetry would still exist, it'd be lessened for no real reason.

 

The solution I'm proposing hasn't even been tried.

 

Summa summarum, the result is clear: borgs with guns protecting the station would become more common. This has been proven to be detrimental. End of.

[Surrealistik]

specialization

 

Bud. Really.

 

I'm not sure what your point is. It would still be a very and clearly specialized module.

 

Objectively false. "I get guns whenever code red is pressed," is infinitely easier than, "I need someone to press the "Give guns" button, then trot over to robotics and get a module switch board."

 

I pointed out the caveat of needing the module reset; I didn't say it was actually as easy, and no, they need 2+ head swipes, not just the code red.

 

You shift your focus from IC to OOC too much. Those "arbitrary rules" that are enforced upon Sec Officers are standards of roleplay. If you go full Duke Nukem on code red as a security officer, you are not adhering to the standard that our administrative staff enforce upon you. The standard stemming from the fact that humans generally experience fear, pain, anxiety, etcetera in a combat situation, and do not wish to (in most cases) rush in to certain death. Also boundaries of knowledge and so forth apply. For borgs, as I've explained, a lot of these inhibitions do not exist. As such, any restrictions would be arbitrary and exist for gameplay balance purposes.

 

Here's the thing: if the situation is desperate enough to require 2+ head swipes on Code Red such that Sec Borgs would have access to lethals, why is there no possible IC justification for a Sec Officer going ape? Why is there always going to be an arbitrary RP barrier preventing them from doing whatever it takes to regain control of the situation? Yes, fear, pain anxiety, etc are all human and humanoid emotions... but what about IPCs with more muted emotions? What about humans who are more desperate, vengeful and angry than they are scared?

 

Implementing your solution would greatly reduce the lack of flexibility. While asymmetry would still exist, it'd be lessened for no real reason.

 

Asymmetry is still there, and in balance, largely unchanged: while they would gain flexibility, they'd lose other advantages like movement speed (both of which make them more like a humanoid; lose one humanoid trait, gain more of another).

 

Summa summarum, the result is clear: borgs with guns protecting the station would become more common. This has been proven to be detrimental. End of.

 

Yes, borgs with guns with sanic speed has proven to be detrimental (and tbh, given some of the things said I'm not so sure the proven thing is accurate).