Stun talisman nerf

[Filthyfrankster]

Right now, the stun talisman is the strongest weapon a cultist can be armed with. The fact they can be in plain clothes and just run up to a nearest person, page them and kill them during those few seconds.

We had ERT's wiped out because a few cultists did nothing but pact stun talismans, run up to an ERT, stun them and execute like the fuhrer wanted.

Keep in mind, these ERT members are fully suited, hardsuits and everything. They should have protection from it.

Perhaps a good way to counter it would be that facial protections by hardsuits would null the insta stun.

It be op, mang

[ClearThoughts]

Can confirm, its kinda silly when the savior squad gets blapped by the greytidey cultist.

[Scheveningen]

The key to fighting cultists is to never get into melee range.

That being said, there are problems with how incredibly powerful a cultist is in keeping talismans in a folder to pull out at any given moment to give a mostly uncounterable stun to anyone.

I would probably prefer that 2 talismans have to be applied back to back to properly stun someone, whereas the first one will only daze and confuse them. This would put a cultist in the position of consolidating more resources in the case of trying to capture someone alive to be converted to the cult, but in the case of combatants they would end up taking a heavier risk in trying to pull off a cheesy stun.

[Filthyfrankster]

Most ERT members don't know that a cultist is packing that kind of shit at first encounter, same with your generic big dong sec officer. All they usually see is some cunt swinging at a sword at them.

And non-antags would probably get slammed with bwoinks for trying to meta the killer stun talisman.

[Scheveningen]

A better addendum to the previous statement is to never let anyone get close to you unless trust is 100% solidified in them being the good guy, then. Just advice, doesn't always work but it can help in the near future. Didn't mean to imply to meta-kill someone who looks like they're trying to stun talisman you.

[ClearThoughts]

A better addendum to the previous statement is to never let anyone get close to you unless trust is 100% solidified in them being the good guy, then. Just advice, doesn't always work but it can help in the near future. Didn't mean to imply to meta-kill someone who looks like they're trying to stun talisman you.

Yea. . That doesn't work either. Can confirm. Someone walks up, three tiles away, theyre like "Ohshit save me", you start typing a response, they ask you a question, stun-tali you mid response. The distance of 3 tiles, general speaking distance, can be closed in under 2 seconds. This solution does not work, and shooting everyone who walks within 1 tile of you will get you bwoinked hard.

[Scheveningen]

ERT has the power and operational authority to disperse anyone they're suspicious of being up to something.

ERT is also not meant to work or walk alone. They have their own team to rely on and provide pressure in preventing antagonists from attacking them. It is a dumb thing for a cultist to attempt to approach a full unit of emergency responders alone, the same goes for an ERT trooper approaching a suspicious person without backup.

[Chada1]

Schev is right, I was watching that round. The ERT split up like doofuses, that's why they were getting solo-killed.

I think this change is unneeded, the ERT aren't supposed to be invincible killing machines, either.

[sonicgotnuked]

I don't agree of this nerf, this can be countered by sticking to groups and staying out of combat range (you should because of the sword) it will be difficult for a cult member to drop a entire squad of ERT with stuns.

[Munks]

The suggestion to keep people at constant distance during cult rounds is a good one, until people inevitably start getting bwoinked for using any sort of force to keep unarmed people who try to get close to them away because they had no IC reason to be so defensive. Antag players salty about getting stopped have ahelped for far less. Cult wasn't meant for servers like this.

[Scheveningen]

The suggestion to keep people at constant distance during cult rounds is a good one, until people inevitably start getting bwoinked for using any sort of force to keep unarmed people who try to get close to them away because they had no IC reason to be so defensive. Antag players salty about getting stopped have ahelped for far less. Cult wasn't meant for servers like this.

 

Honestly I'll tell anyone to hush up if ERT is doing their job at maintaining their distance and preventing unnecessary risk. They aren't called to the station to 100% trust the crew either because the situation could be anything.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

The stun talisman is single use and you must be adjacent to someone to use it. It is an ambush weapon, not one that you can rely on. It is countered by ranged weapons, groups, or maintaining a 1-tile distance. It doesn't need nerfing and is one of the things Cult has fine.

[Kaed]

The stun talisman is single use and you must be adjacent to someone to use it. It is an ambush weapon, not one that you can rely on. It is countered by ranged weapons, groups, or maintaining a 1-tile distance. It doesn't need nerfing and is one of the things Cult has fine.

 

Jackboot, that's how it is supposed to work on paper, but I know for a fact that Frankster is frustrated about it because the situation where he was killed in the round that caused this thread was two cultist bum rushing him while he was in the breacher suit so they can stun talisman him and laser him to death with his own weapon. I was the AI that round and watched the whole thing. Especially in situations like that, where are you being slowed by some penalty, like heavy, powerful armor, and with the new sprint mechanic, the whole 'just maintain a 1 square distance' argument doesn't really hold up. The talisman needs to have some kind of counterplay other than maintaining distance, like armor actually mitigating it.

And on the note of sprinting, what about unathi cultists? They have the fastest charges in the game, and could theoretically close on you and stun talisman you before you can react. With the current setup for stun talismans, they become incredibly dangerous cultists.

There was a time when 'just maintain distance from them' was an applicable mantra, but the game has long since had many changes to movement, and cult needs to be updated to reflect them. No longer does everyone move at the same speed all the time except minor differences between unathi and tajarans and diona.

[canon35]

I agree with Kaed, the "keep your distance" stuff doesn't really work when you factor in magboots, hardsuits, sprints, etc. In theory a unathi cultist with 3 papers can bumrush 3 ERT and fuck them over. I wouldn't mind a nerf in the form of having to use 2 talismans instead, enforcing the idea of working together to nab people and finding other ways to grab people.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

If you're in a situation where your enemy is faster than you... Then do not wear the breacher suit. If your ERT squad is being bumrushed then they need to change their strategy. This is not an issue of being overpowered but an issue of you being punished for choosing the wrong tactic to tackle the situation. Brute force does not tend to work against the cult, as is by design.

[Kaed]

If you're in a situation where your enemy is faster than you... Then do not wear the breacher suit. If your ERT squad is being bumrushed then they need to change their strategy. This is not an issue of being overpowered but an issue of you being punished for choosing the wrong tactic to tackle the situation. Brute force does not tend to work against the cult, as is by design.

 

Can you tell me, exactly, what tactic you should be using to counteract being bumrushed by, say, an unathi cultist with a talisman, who can move fundamentally faster than you are capable of moving due to you being a slow human? You keep repeating the same argument here, but it is not applicable to the current movement mechanics. "Don't wear armor" isn't the solution. "Don't be a non-unathi" also isn't an acceptable solution.

Further, without actually metagaming, how are you supposed to know that armor and 'brute force' is not an effective tactic against cultists? It seems to me that the advantage of cultists is not 'that they are not counterable with brute force', but rather that they are powerful with teamwork. Reinforcing that a single cultist can and should be able to take out any person, regardless of how armored they are (and that in fact it is their fault because they let the cultist click on them once) to me goes against the thematic tone of cultists. Make them require teamwork to take out a powerful opponent.

I think saying that a half decade old stun mechanic is still relevant after all this time and doesn't need to be updated because 'it's iconic of the antagonist' isn't really well-thought out as a standpoint. There are two other antagonists that can instantly stun you regardless of armor - wizards and ninjas. Both of them have to use projectiles though, and they are both non-stealth based single antagonists. They've also both been updated in recent years. Cultists however, have barely been touched until Nanako recently gave them some new toys and I think it's time we reevaluate their old ones.

[Scheveningen]

Shoot people who look like uncooperative assholes on sight with any means necessary. ERT are given license to do this. Security can do this provided their head of security isn't a complete worthless ponce that forgets their radio exists. What part of "stick together as a team" do you folks not understand?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Unathi sprinting closes the distance but they cannot sustain their speed. If you exhaust a Unathi then you can easily stay out of their reach. Unathi being scary in CQC is their entire a e s t h e t ic.

Cultists can only have certain numbers of runes at a time, and by making a stun rune they use up a storage slot for another rune. They have their risk/reward for combat, and their combat revolves almost entirely on speed, surprise, and the initial upper hand. A Unathi cultist is not invincible, you just need to practice different strategies.

You are also not being consistent. "Make them require teamwork to take out a powerful opponent. "

They do. A single cultist cannot wipe out an entire security team or ERT squad, or maybe even more than 1. A cultist full of stun runes and armored cloaks will get maybe 1 - 2. Cultists teaming up to take out security or ERT with their stun runes is rewarding them for teamwork.

[Garnascus]

I kinda agree with frank to be honest. it also doesnt help that there is an endless supply of them if you keep summoning cult zombies. when a cult zombie is summoned he always spawns with a talisman with all of its uses. So you have a never ending wave of zombies that do not go into pain-crit who just have to hit you once with that talisman and you're fucked. That is a strategy that relies on just having one guy hide away somewhere with a rune network to send in zombies. I feel like its a little too strong.

In almost every other situation though they are great. Perfect for when you want to kidnap someone and forcefully bring them into the cult. they quickly spiral out of control under certain conditions though.

[JKJudgeX]

Generally, antagonists are outnumbered by security alone, much less the various superheroes who strangely look like scientists and cargo techs, so, I don't have a problem with them having some powerful kit with which to abuse the crew.

Honestly, asking for pretty much anything to be nerfed while ninja, wizard, and malf AI exist as they do is a little bit weird, IMO... the game is not supposed to be "fair" on a 1 to 1 basis.

That syndicate borg with the grenade launchers is stupid overpowered, too, like, kill all of security by itself powerful... especially when we apparently don't consider it metagaming for the syndicate players to pre-emptively steal ion-based countermeasures before revealing their new super construct.

[DatBerry]

honestly the stun talisman is one of the most OP weapons you can have at your disposal, and they require no effort at all in neither acquiring nor using them.

one click to knock someone completely unconscious, you don't have to worry about them fighting back or running, you don't have to worry about them calling for help on the radio either. the knockdown is so long you can take your sweat time dragging them deep into maintenance, cuff them up and then remove their headset long before they're awake.

my suggestion is to turn the stun talisman into a trap, you will still receive it the same way, but you will no longer be able to click on people with it, instead. you click it in hand.

it would spawn an invisible rune to non cultists, a trap. when a non cultist walks over it, they're instantly stunned(for a shorter duration), and automagically handcuffed by cultlike handcuffs, similar to bay's wizard cuffs, but they would also cover the victim's mouth like duct tape.

what this will do is stop it from becoming a direct weapon, and give it a bigger tactical advantage, instead of walking up to someone and stunning them, you need to lure them into walking over the rune, you could setup ambushes, set a rune in a maintenance shaft and hide in a locker, you could apply the rune while you're running to catch people who are on your tail.

if cultists still want their insta stun gank method of getting new recruits, all they need to do is actually work for their goal, stungloves/stunprod/radiojammer/handcuffs/ducttape can still work wonders on unarmored crewmembers.

 

we apparently don't consider it metagaming for the syndicate players to pre-emptively steal ion-based countermeasures before revealing their new super construct.

 

knowing EMP weapons disable robots is metagaming

 

if the warden isn't checking on the armory every 5 seconds he isn't doing his job properly. but seriously; a traitor stealthily breaking into the armory is pretty hard, hell i heard someone deconstructing his way into solitary when i was near processing. and if they go in loud, that gives security a warning on what to expect (ion and EMP missing = bad robots, missing guns = bad anyone) and that'd give them a reason to arm up and be ready.

[JKJudgeX]

if the warden isn't checking on the armory every 5 seconds he isn't doing his job properly. but seriously; a traitor stealthily breaking into the armory is pretty hard, hell i heard someone deconstructing his way into solitary when i was near processing. and if they go in loud, that gives security a warning on what to expect (ion and EMP missing = bad robots, missing guns = bad anyone) and that'd give them a reason to arm up and be ready.

 

In the round I was referring to, that's what we tried to do, but the syndicate borg, without EMP weapons to confront it, was easily capable of murderboning all of security and command with grenade launcher before further response could be mounted.

I didn't find it adminhelp worthy, even though I was grenade-launchered mid-sentence and all of the EMP weapons had been stolen pre-emptively... just found it to be one of those "lol look how robust we are" as when people bee-line to the AI chamber with thermite the instant they see a blue screen and various other slightly too clever strats that I'm sure we all take part in from time to time. Not a big deal tho.

[DatBerry]

[

In the round I was referring to, that's what we tried to do, but the syndicate borg, without EMP weapons to confront it, was easily capable of murderboning all of security and command with grenade launcher before further response could be mounted.

 

 

if they grenaded you before any combat had started, that was shitty, but you do know you could've used flash rounds? one shot is like a ranged flash that would overload their senors and leave them helpless against the harmbaton, fllashrounds for the .45 and 12 gauge shotguns are easily printed out of an autolathe without hacking it

[JKJudgeX]

[

In the round I was referring to, that's what we tried to do, but the syndicate borg, without EMP weapons to confront it, was easily capable of murderboning all of security and command with grenade launcher before further response could be mounted.

 

 

if they grenaded you before any combat had started, that was shitty, but you do know you could've used flash rounds? one shot is like a ranged flash that would overload their senors and leave them helpless against the harmbaton, fllashrounds for the .45 and 12 gauge shotguns are easily printed out of an autolathe without hacking it

 

Yeah, it turns out that the same mentality that goes and pre-emptively removes all of the EMP grenades and guns is also the same mentality that shoots before you have a chance to flash/etc... which is why I kinda consider that meta-play... it's very much playing to win more than anything else...

But, again, every once in a while? Sure... I was just particularly frustrated by that round because it was when people were continually testing the new syndie borg features and it was getting old very fast.