sonicgotnuked Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 What it is: To possess a suspiciously wide skill set not indicated in employee record, wielding dangerous weapons near other staff, extensive inquiring about critical areas, or stalking other employees. Notes: Basically, metagamey/powergamey behaviour. It's worth reporting to the Head of Personnel or your Head of Staff if you want to play a character who knows more than they should. You may also want to adminhelp if you feel the person is using metagamey or powergamey behavior. Sentience: 2 minutes. Immediate search. Repeat Sentience: Tracking implant. This regulation is basically a thing to promote valid hunting behavior and it shows in the parts I bolded. The only reason why this exist is to combat metagame/powergame but we have staff for a reason. This regulation can be thrown for anything and is a excuse to get someone searched. Santa is on the station? Let give him this and search him to ruin his gimmick. Some chef has budget insulated gloves? Let us search him. This is valid hunting at its finest and this activly promotes it. The repeat is a tracking implant, and I bet your antaging will be shut down when you get one of those for having a gasmask on your face or you are around some crime scene. Security should not be given a regulation that acts like a bridge to find excuses to add more charges, any security officer can use it and get you searched because they suspect you for being an antag. I understand that admins punish people for this already, but it is already too late and it can not be fixed when that happens, shutting down what might be a good antag.
Munks Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 The only reason why this exist is to combat metagame/powergame but we have staff for a reason. It's an RP server. Maybe we should RP handling suspicious persons ICly, instead of immediately running to the admins everytime someone does something wrong.
sonicgotnuked Posted June 26, 2017 Author Posted June 26, 2017 It's an RP server. Maybe we should RP handling suspicious persons ICly, instead of immediately running to the admins every time someone does something wrong. I understand that, but it is used to valid hunt antags. It would be a lot more fun for everyone involved to allow said person with suspicious activity to act out first, then you can arrest them. It shuts down antag gimmicks before they even start. The question is Munks, would you rather valid hunt a antag that has a interesting gimmick and shut it down before they can get it working or would you like to have a new space station 13 story where said antag did something amazing? In real life, I could see how this can be applied. But this is a game, we all play it to have fun.
Munks Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 (edited) Antags having to deal with Security is the entire point of Security existing. If the Captain/HoS find the antagonist's presence beneficial and wants Sec to back off, then they have to back off or get in trouble. Once again, this is an RP server. One side of the coin is that antags should RP whatever gimmick they decide to go with, and the other side of that same coin is that Security is supposed to handle them like they're an intruder/suspicious individual on a restricted space station. Its out of character to clip Security's wings and force them to heel for an antag just because they want to be Friendly Ninja/Wizard #219308209. There is no listed exception to "heavy rp" that states "except we're light rp when it comes to antags when they want to be friendly". And if you're getting caught while preparing your antag gimmick, then that still comes with the territory. You're doing something illegal. Sec should then be able to look into it. Stealth better next time. Edited June 26, 2017 by Guest
Skull132 Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 Fucking christ. All these policy requests. [mention]ForgottenTraveller[/mention] + admins plz
sonicgotnuked Posted June 26, 2017 Author Posted June 26, 2017 Antags having to deal with Security is the entire point of Security existing. If the Captain/HoS find the antagonist's presence beneficial and wants Sec to back off, then they have to back off or get in trouble. Once again, this is an RP server. One side of the coin is that antags should RP whatever gimmick they decide to go with, and the other side of that same coin is that Security is supposed to handle them like they're an intruder/suspicious individual on a restricted space station. Its out of character to clip Security's wings and force them to heel for an antag just because they want to be Friendly Ninja/Wizard #219308209. There is no listed exception to "heavy rp" that states "except we're light rp when it comes to antags when they want to be friendly". And if you're getting caught while preparing your antag gimmick, then that still comes with the territory. You're doing something illegal. Sec should then be able to look into it. Stealth better next time. The antag does not need to do anything really for it. I'll pull my experience yesterday from how this regulation shut down one of my gimmicks in like three minutes. The dude got a warning for it, but it was far ruined. I get a holokit, voice changer, no slip shoes, agent ID card, and e-sword to be santa and give everyone presents. I use the voice changer to sing santa is coming to town on comms then I go to the bar. Security comes in, and the first thing they do is whisper to each other about arresting me for suspicious conduct, then they want to search me on the bar. The entire point of it was keeping my true identity secret, I was using three contraband items to make the entire gimmick work and add interact with the crew, that they would of found in the search. This is like the charge infiltration just because the ninja/wiz is on the station, it is extremely shitty to just straight charge you with. Knowledge of the antagonists and Syndicate Items is restricted. We expect players to allow traitors some leeway and as such have a list here of who and what can be recgonized and by who. We expect players to not powergame and give the antagonists a little leeway to get away with things. There is a rule to allow antags leeway in situations, i106 counteracts that rule most of the times. Lastly, the gimmick with santa was not supposed to be stealthy, that would counter the entire point of the gimmick. I can't give people presents and maybe sometimes murder people while sitting in maintenance.
Rushodan Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 As a frequent security player, this regulation is needed, but perhaps altered to consult with command staff first? I mean this is supposed to be a secure research facility as mentioned above, if you have someone bypass all external security measures and who are not registered within any kind of manifest, it would be a massive IC concern. At the end of the day, station safety comes first - think what central would want if they had an intruder infiltrate a secure station with unknown intentions. Its no secret that NanoTrasen has made enemies over its time operating, crew and station safety always comes first. If the antag refuses searches or to come to the brig, force SHOULD be used unless told otherwise by command elements. If anything, more OOC rules need to be put into place regarding peoples interactions with antags. Its fucking annoying to see someone claiming to be a wizard or something similar to command, and that they are here to stop evil elements only for command to immediately accept them and give them all access to do so (yes, that has actually happened a couple of times). Imagine if this happened in real life, you would send them to the psych immediately. All in all, its all to do with probable cause and common sense should be applied. Is the unknown intruder that gained access to a secure station undetected a threat? Most probably.
sonicgotnuked Posted June 26, 2017 Author Posted June 26, 2017 Its no secret that NanoTrasen has made enemies over its time operating, crew and station safety always comes first. If the antag refuses searches or to come to the brig, force SHOULD be used unless told otherwise by command elements. I agree with these points, antags who refuse a search should be forced. BUT people mainly use this charge for a excuse, or a loophole to search antags knowing the high chance they have contraband when they show a little tiny amount of stuff they are mechanically doing their gimmick with with, they may find a excuse to get the dude searched with it. If anything, more OOC rules need to be put into place regarding peoples interactions with antags. Its fucking annoying to see someone claiming to be a wizard or something similar to command, and that they are here to stop evil elements only for command to immediately accept them and give them all access to do so (yes, that has actually happened a couple of times). Imagine if this happened in real life, you would send them to the psych immediately. Sometimes wiz woz wishes to be peace wizard, or peace ninja comes on and they get searched, found as not a threat, and they are fine. It does not have to every time things escalate to lethal because the excuse of "they are on muh space station." Not everything needs to turn into a gun fight because the antag (who is mechanically unable to leave the station) is not leaving the station and you wish to charge a infiltration. As a antag, of COURSE you will refuse a infiltration charge because it is a straight tracking implant and of course you don't want security constantly tracking your every move. I seen times where security wishes to do that just because wiz woz or ninja decides to go on the station because they rolled antag. What do you expect? Of course said antag will come on the station because no one wants said ninja/wiz to sit around in their base where nothing happens. 9/10 it will escalate to lethals, maybe said antag goal is not a gun fight and this basically forces the hand. 15 minutes and tracking implant. Yes, sometimes peace wiz is annoying AF when it happens, but there is other ways you can get enjoyment outside of the antags in your game. Regulations and "they are not authorized" and "they have a santa costume and they sound like santa, let bring them in for i106 so we can search for the contraband we OOCly know is there like his voice changer and holokit." should not be an excuse. It is best to allow the antag to do what they wish to try and progress the round for the fun of everyone, within reason. I am not trying to condone "lol, allow the antag to kill everyone." but when you try to bring them in three minutes in, yeah, that is really shitty and i106 sadly promotes it. ============TD;LR==============You shouldn't ignore mechanics fully IC wise, sometimes you can't do something that is not supported mechanic wise. I don't like when security tells the ninja/wiz to fuck off when they physically can't and they are peace wiz/ninja. You know, this is like having beepsky arrest you and you tell the dude not to run, even though command told you to not arrest them but to watch them. This happened before, dude is not deactivating beepsky and arrests the antag for trying run from them.
Kaed Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 (edited) The antag does not need to do anything really for it. I'll pull my experience yesterday from how this regulation shut down one of my gimmicks in like three minutes. The dude got a warning for it, but it was far ruined. I get a holokit, voice changer, no slip shoes, agent ID card, and e-sword to be santa and give everyone presents. I use the voice changer to sing santa is coming to town on comms then I go to the bar. Security comes in, and the first thing they do is whisper to each other about arresting me for suspicious conduct, then they want to search me on the bar. The entire point of it was keeping my true identity secret, I was using three contraband items to make the entire gimmick work and add interact with the crew, that they would of found in the search. This is like the charge infiltration just because the ninja/wiz is on the station, it is extremely shitty to just straight charge you with. Sorry, but. People who decide to spend their antagonist round doing something really weird like 'pretending to be santa' or 'going around healing the crew with magic' are not somehow magically exempt from being questioned by security. You are not Santa, you are a crew member using illegal items to pretend to be a fictional character. It is frankly insanity to expect that doing this in a workplace should just be ignored until you do something hostile. This next part is, of course, opinion based, but people who waste their antag round on a 'gimmick' that involves them going around being a special friendly snowflake seem to have missed the important context of the term 'antagonist'. You're equipped with gear or abilities that normal crew lacks, which is intended to facilitate creating an interesting round. Deciding that 'an interesting round' constitutes pretending that you just got lost after teleporting on the station and want a place to stay and chat with people is a colossal waste of an opportunity other people really want that have more engaging ideas. As a general rule of thumb, if your 'gimmick' heavily relies on you expecting the entire crew to just tolerate your presence as 'one of the guys', then you are not playing an antagonist right. You are creating no conflict except that which occurs when people try to treat you like what you are - an intruder with unknown motives, or a crewmember that has items or tech they shouldn't have. There is no reason to remove this rule except to facilitate more peace antag play, which I vehemently disagree with. You don't have to go around actively murdering the crew without a word to be an antagonist, but you can certainly do more aggressive things than pretend to be santa. Edited June 26, 2017 by Guest
Scheveningen Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 Isn't it ironic that officers abuse the regulation in order to metagame/powergame, rather than actually using it to stick metagamers or powergamers with?
Rushodan Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 Isn't it ironic that officers abuse the regulation in order to metagame/powergame, rather than actually using it to stick metagamers or powergamers with? Officers blatantly meta/power gaming should be Ahelped for staff to deal with. This regulation isnt there to allow meta/power gaming as we both know. Sometimes wiz woz wishes to be peace wizard, or peace ninja comes on and they get searched, found as not a threat, and they are fine. It does not have to every time things escalate to lethal because the excuse of "they are on muh space station." Not everything needs to turn into a gun fight because the antag (who is mechanically unable to leave the station) is not leaving the station and you wish to charge a infiltration. As a antag, of COURSE you will refuse a infiltration charge because it is a straight tracking implant and of course you don't want security constantly tracking your every move. Well, lets go by what you are saying Sonic and that 'sometimes the antag is here to be peaceful'. If you are being a friendly and peaceful antag why do you care if security know where you are?. Refusing an implant which is in place so that you can be found quickly in case you decide to start breaking regs just makes your intentions look suspicious as all hell. If you want to only help crew and be friendly - accept the implant, it helps command/security put a little more trust in you
Munks Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 The antag does not need to do anything really for it. I'll pull my experience yesterday from how this regulation shut down one of my gimmicks in like three minutes. The dude got a warning for it, but it was far ruined. I get a holokit, voice changer, no slip shoes, agent ID card, and e-sword to be santa and give everyone presents. I use the voice changer to sing santa is coming to town on comms then I go to the bar. This isn't antagging. This is using your antag roll as a makeshift "event" round. If you feel like events like these are worth wasting an entire antag slot on something that isn't antagonistic in the slightest, you should consider formally suggesting it as an round event. That way, if it's actually worth devoting a round to, it'll receive the protection (and staff collaboration) it deserves. Frankly, I'd be glad if Security actually enforcing space law discouraged people from blowing antag rounds on gimmicks like "sitting in the bar and giving people free contraband". That is all subjective though, feel free to disregard it as you will. Objectively speaking, you admit that in this particular instance, the admins were NOT okay with it and therefore it wasn't a valid application of space law. So why are you using it as an example to have the law amended anyway?
ForgottenTraveller Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 And suspicious conduct needs a warrant, and a warrant needs a reason. At most in my mind, changing it to add a stipulation, it should note that this is not an officer on site can cuff level offence. But i106 is critical for security to work effectively Lets say a librarian is pulling a welding tank down the hall, you know of no reason they would need it, no one is asking for one on comms for a critical reason. The tank isn't contraband, nor are the tools they are probably carrying to go along with it, and maybe they have an signaler in their pack too, you can't see that but it is suspicious. Very suspicious. So the officer challenges them in conversation as to what is going on, while a warden or HoS preps a warrant. Lets say the librarian doesn't give a good reason to have it, the warden fires off the warrant, the officer shows their projector. And takes the librarian in, and search them, well that signaler, some tools and welding tank don't look good, and a search warrant of their workplace, finds an igniter hidden in the trash can. All this pieces together too look like an employee making an IED. Their conduct was noticed as suspicious, and this through logical reasoning and progression stopped a possible bombing, by an employee who should not have the knowledge on how to make an IED, nor a reason why they would want too until you investigate. Removing i106, what does sec do now? Wait for them to assemble the bomb, risking themselves, and others on the station. Or violate the regulations to potentially protect others on an instinct and reasoning that this needs handled. Yes it limits antags. But security's role is to protect the station and its crew. And syndicate operatives, are subversive elements, meaning you are supposed to work around those issues. Go loud and barrel through in a screen of havoc and destruction. Or quietly and trying not to be noticed, and if security notices you, it may be game over unless you can play it off. Lings, you don't exist, if people know you exist it makes sustaining yourself harder, loose ends should be tidied up, nosy ends should be stamped out. Rev, you are someone with an idea and a goal, contrary to what your employers would like, it would be best if they and their supporters didn't know until you have enough people in your line of thinking. Cult, similar to rev, strength in numbers, the weak and few do better to hide and move quietly. 'Santa is on the station? Let give him this and search him to ruin his gimmick.' Santa, looks like a regular employee in a gas mask, and an ID card calling himself Santa. That is bloody suspicious. Like lets rock up on a corner store in a santa suit in June, suspicious. 'Some chef has budget insulated gloves?' The chef can wash em with some bloody crayons or hide them in his pocket till he needs them. I will say, it is actually stipulated in this that it refers to employees. Wiz/Ninja/Merc/Raider, while it is suspicious that they are there, this reg won't really apply to them. They are the other, outside the norm, they are by definition to be regarded with suspicion. As such their conduct is in itself not different from what would be the norm in that circumstance.
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 I think we can come to a solution without needing to remove or add a whole new rule. Under regulations we are already protected from search on code green. Illegal searchTo preform a search of an employee or workplace without a search warrant, clearance, or probable cause on code green. But that doesn't entirely protect them, so I propose we add a simple line to reinforce the rule of searches. Suspicious Conduct To possess a suspiciously wide skill set not indicated in employee record, wielding dangerous weapons near other staff, extensive inquiring about critical areas, or stalking other employees. A search or arrest warrant is needed to apply this charge on code green. If an admin would sign off on this, I think it would help give us IC means of legally resolving this problem. Because we need a balance between just allowing gimmicks and being realistic in reacting to them from the perspective of a research station. Requiring a warrant (or code blue) puts the responsibility on a head of staff, who is expected to have a better sense of judgement over this stuff.
ForgottenTraveller Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 Suspicious Conduct To possess a suspiciously wide skill set not indicated in employee record, wielding dangerous weapons near other staff, extensive inquiring about critical areas, or stalking other employees. A search or arrest warrant is needed to apply this charge on code green. Approval on my end. Adminz get in 'ere
Rushodan Posted June 27, 2017 Posted June 27, 2017 Yep - that would solve the issues regarding that regulation actually... Im all for this
Garnascus Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 Suspicious Conduct To possess a suspiciously wide skill set not indicated in employee record, wielding dangerous weapons near other staff, extensive inquiring about critical areas, or stalking other employees. A search or arrest warrant is needed to apply this charge on code green. Approval on my end. Adminz get in 'ere Does this apply to non-crew such as wizards or ninjas who try to be peaceful? I will be honest, the regulation as it stands is used for metagaming but it also does need to exist. "i know this guy is an antag and he almost certainly has contraband so i will search him for his stuff and then ruin his round"
Munks Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 If your round is going to be ruined by getting searched then you should probably avoid standing around in the hallways with that kind of contraband on you.
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 [mention]Garnascus[/mention] https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.php?title=Corporate_Regulations#Corporate_regulations Non-crew are only protected from mistreatment and abuse. If you don't have an ID, you are subject to search without a warrant on code green.
Garnascus Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 If your round is going to be ruined by getting searched then you should probably avoid standing around in the hallways with that kind of contraband on you. yeah but NOT immediately trying to search someone who looks suspicious is generally in the best interest of the rounds narrative. This point becomes moot though if they are breaking other regulations. That being said i think the proposed alterations are a good idea. I will harass the other admins just to be sure.
witchbells Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 Absolutely not. If security is abusing it to validhunt, then it will be handled on a case-by-case basis. The regulation makes perfect sense within the game.
Garnascus Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 Absolutely not. If security is abusing it to validhunt, then it will be handled on a case-by-case basis. The regulation makes perfect sense within the game. The thing is by the time people ahelp the round has already been adversely affected. only so much we can void and we usually end up just trying to make sure a situation doesn't happen again. If we can stop them from happening in the first place hoorah?
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 Absolutely not. If security is abusing it to validhunt, then it will be handled on a case-by-case basis. The regulation makes perfect sense within the game. We aren't removing it. pls read the latest post. we are reinforcing that it needs a warrant.
Catnip Posted June 28, 2017 Posted June 28, 2017 Removing the regulation as a whole would have adverse effects, for the reasons that have already been stated in this thread, however Jackboot's idea if reinforcing the fact that you need a warrant before placing this charge on someone is the optimal outcome here. Suspicious Conduct To possess a suspiciously wide skill set not indicated in employee record, wielding dangerous weapons near other staff, extensive inquiring about critical areas, or stalking other employees. A search or arrest warrant is needed to apply this charge on code green. I'm in favour of this.
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