BurgerBB Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 (edited) UPDATED AS OF FEB 1ST, 2018 10:04AM PST Currently, messages are displayed to nearby players if another player puts something in their backpack. This feature is only unique to backpacks, and no other storage unit in the game. I suggest applying it to pockets, webbing, belts, and other storage units with respect to the item's weight. It makes absolutely 0 sense that I can't notice that someone placed an arcane tome in their pocket, especially when I'm directly in front of them, looking at their character. This PR fixes it so that I can actually recognize that people placed an item into their pocket. You won't always get a notification when a message is placed into their pocket or storage devices; Messages are based on distance, angle, and the size of the item. For example, for the This is how it intends to work out in terms of distance,messages, and angles. I made a PR already but apparently it's controversial ( Link: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/4206 ) and more in-depth feedback is required regarding the balance. Please only discuss the code itself there, and not the actual concept. Use this thread to discuss the concept and balance. Edited February 1, 2018 by Guest
sdtwbaj Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 this really upsets a lot of balance in the game, in favor of the station. Big nerf for antags, a traitor getting memed by Security after slipping an emag into his pocket. -1
Butterrobber202 Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 There is already a message when you place stuff in webbing, 100% sure. And yeah big -1 Antags need to be sneaky to avoid metagaming sec fags
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 Slipping items into your pocket is an important part of stealth. You do not need to know what everyone around you is doing with every tiny little thing. The withheld information and element of surprise are too important to toss away. There are no listed benefits from this change other than realism.
Arrow768 Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 I do not think that it would upset balance too much, as its based on size and distance. As shown in the OP, even if you are standing directly next to someone, you would not see that he put a emag into his pocket. Just that he put something into his pocket. If you are just one tile away, then you wouldn't see that they just slipped a emag into their pocket.
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 'He put something in his pocket' is inherently giving them away. That would be all anyone needs to conduct a search or immediately consider them valid for suspicion. Every minor slip up is enough to render a full nuclear response. If you give an inch people will take a mile. We do not need to be spatially aware of what everyone around us is doing. Why would you want me to know that the person behind me is slipping something into their pocket? A lot of high stakes events that rely on small items and pockets happen in close proximity. I can rattle off seven instances in which this change would have immediately exposed me as an antag or to an antag. This eliminates finesse.
BurgerBB Posted January 29, 2018 Author Posted January 29, 2018 'He put something in his pocket' is inherently giving them away. That would be all anyone needs to conduct a search or immediately consider them valid for suspicion. Every minor slip up is enough to render a full nuclear response. If you give an inch people will take a mile. We do not need to be spatially aware of what everyone around us is doing. Why would you want me to know that the person behind me is slipping something into their pocket? A lot of high stakes events that rely on small items and pockets happen in close proximity. I can rattle off seven instances in which this change would have immediately exposed me as an antag or to an antag. This eliminates finesse. Another idea I have is to add an alternative name to traitor and common items, for example all IDs would be read as "an id", and on top of that the emag will also read as "an id". The cult book can be read as "a book" while all other books can be read as "a book" instead of the actual title of the book. It's unrealistic to have the specific name of small or indistinct objects like an ID or a title of a book. There's also the problem of direction. I could also make it so that messages like that are completely ignored if you're facing the opposite direction.
Guest Marlon Phoenix Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 The change burger suggested to have all items displayed as mundane seems ok... I am teetering on the edge of how I feel about it but I don't have any arguments against it ancedotal or otherwise. Seems far more fair to bwoink someone for validhunting or metagaming if their prompt was something so mundane. So it's a good change.
BurgerBB Posted January 29, 2018 Author Posted January 29, 2018 The change burger suggested to have all items displayed as mundane seems ok... I am teetering on the edge of how I feel about it but I don't have any arguments against it ancedotal or otherwise. Seems far more fair to bwoink someone for validhunting or metagaming if their prompt was something so mundane. So it's a good change. I added directional checks. It makes it so that you can only hear (see: the a message a blind person would get) large and extra large items being removed from backpacks if you're not facing the direction. Large and extra large items can't fit in pockets anyways and the distance is only 1 tile for large items and 2 tiles for extra large items.
alexpkeaton Posted January 29, 2018 Posted January 29, 2018 (edited) You'd be surprised how often officers forget to search pockets. Even a notification that "something" was slipped in the pocket will remind them. It is an important part of stealth for antags to be able to squirrel something away in a pocket or drop pouches in the hope that sec will not find it. -1 as it negatively affects balance. Edited January 30, 2018 by Guest
Butterrobber202 Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 puts emag in pocket. Bob McTator puts an id in his pocket. Sec: Hey you shouldn't have more than one ID! EMPTY YOUR FUCKING POCKETS SHITBAG!
BurgerBB Posted January 30, 2018 Author Posted January 30, 2018 puts emag in pocket. Bob McTator puts an id in his pocket. Sec: Hey you shouldn't have more than one ID! EMPTY YOUR FUCKING POCKETS SHITBAG! Well don't put an emag in your pocket when you're standing 1 tile away directly in from of security on code blue/red.
Mofo1995 Posted January 30, 2018 Posted January 30, 2018 Keep pockets sacred. I've always looked at it as antags having the inherent skill to perform the appropriate slight of hand check to sneak something into their pockets quickly, I don't think that's too unreasonable.
MO_oNyMan Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 puts emag in pocket. Bob McTator puts an id in his pocket. Sec: Hey you shouldn't have more than one ID! EMPTY YOUR FUCKING POCKETS SHITBAG! Well don't put an emag in your pocket when you're standing 1 tile away directly in from of security on code blue/red. Exactly. I wouldn't call trying to conceal a contraband item standing directly in front of an officer "stealth". Taking into consideration that all items (not only illegal ones) will display a message i highly doubt security will unga-bunga check everyone who "puts something in their pocket". On the other hand it's a more realistic model, as i would expect to notice when a criminal tries to conceal a weapon in front of me. So if you want to be stealthy - please do. The suggestion doesn't remove your ability to hide items completely. A +1 from me
BurgerBB Posted January 31, 2018 Author Posted January 31, 2018 puts emag in pocket. Bob McTator puts an id in his pocket. Sec: Hey you shouldn't have more than one ID! EMPTY YOUR FUCKING POCKETS SHITBAG! Well don't put an emag in your pocket when you're standing 1 tile away directly in from of security on code blue/red. Exactly. I wouldn't call trying to conceal a contraband item standing directly in front of an officer "stealth". Taking into consideration that all items (not only illegal ones) will display a message i highly doubt security will unga-bunga check everyone who "puts something in their pocket". On the other hand it's a more realistic model, as i would expect to notice when a criminal tries to conceal a weapon in front of me. So if you want to be stealthy - please do. The suggestion doesn't remove your ability to hide items completely. A +1 from me Yeah I absolutely cannot stress this enough. I'm slightly shocked that this PR has recieved such negative feedback, actually more negative feedback than any other PR in aurora history on the github, except one PR that suggests that there should be a random event that blows a random APC. It's such a trivial change. An officer would have to be directly looking at you, right up in your face 1 tile away to notice that you placed a butterfly knife in your pocket.
Skull132 Posted February 19, 2018 Posted February 19, 2018 It's such a trivial change. An officer would have to be directly looking at you, right up in your face 1 tile away to notice that you placed a butterfly knife in your pocket. Trivial changes are wherein the rub lies. Just as a memo.
driecg36 Posted February 19, 2018 Posted February 19, 2018 +1 from me if the items are listed as generic. It's annoying that pockets are magical stealth portals even when you're staring straight at someone, right next to them.
Bauser Posted February 21, 2018 Posted February 21, 2018 This is like the one edge that a non-weaponized antag has in the presence of an already hypervigilant security force. Although the change has some grounding in reality (not that it's difficult to stealthily slip something into or out of your pocket, even directly in front of someone), I really think its impact would end up more negative than positive.
Scheveningen Posted February 22, 2018 Posted February 22, 2018 Double those range indicators or no dice. I would never rely on the examine text ever again and I'd more defensively position myself more if I felt I could get ganked far easier because of this system, antag or not. Antagonists already have so many edges over the crew and the rest of the security force that it's pretty darn shocking that nobody knows it. They're called "roleplay limitations." Don't make yourself a valid target so early if you don't want to risk getting your round shut down early. Be patient and do things discretely, there's no need to rush in a 2:30~ average duration round.
Pacmandevil Posted February 22, 2018 Posted February 22, 2018 Look. I get "unga bunga he doesn't even play" but considering how often people manage their shit in this game, it's going to be a LOT of message spam for no real gain. Along with the fact that hey, learn to search right. you should be checking pockets, and you don't need a magic message to replace your common sense.
MO_oNyMan Posted February 22, 2018 Posted February 22, 2018 Look. I get "unga bunga he doesn't even play" but considering how often people manage their shit in this game, it's going to be a LOT of message spam for no real gain. Along with the fact that hey, learn to search right. you should be checking pockets, and you don't need a magic message to replace your common sense. People doesn't really manage their things that often. I have never seen anyone just taking shit in and out of their pocket just for the sake of it. Besides that the range on which you get the message is pretty small. So the only situation you're gonna get spammed with "he puts simething in his backpack" messages is when you're directly overseing a group of people gearing up or something. And even then you can just turn to the side and not see any messages but be aware of what's going on (since we don't have a field of view coded yet). As for the second point, it's not about magic messages replacing common sense. It's about using your eyes. There's nothing magical about not being blind and being able to notice a guy putting a giant sword into his backpack.
Pacmandevil Posted February 22, 2018 Posted February 22, 2018 Which you can already see, and hear. if you're paying attention. "Oh they just had a sword and put it away somewhere" "It's not on their body and a sword wouldn't fit in a belt" Thus, backpack.
Bauser Posted February 22, 2018 Posted February 22, 2018 Be patient and do things discretely, there's no need to rush in a 2:30~ average duration round. ... Except, there frequently are reasons to rush. Other people are playing, the machine is in motion, antagonists do not have a blank chessboard to plan out their perfect escapades. If they act too slowly, it's boring for others and people hold it against them, so we shouldn't make it even harder to pull the quick tricks that are often fundamental to how the round plays out mechanically. I know you say "oh, there's such a thing as roleplay," but roleplay goes out the window for so many people as soon as you enter a confrontation scenario, where slowing down to communicate nuance is just going to be abused by others as an opportunity to gank you in any way possible. And that's perfectly within the rules! This change attempts to fix a problem that doesn't exist. And it's going to make problems if it goes through.
MO_oNyMan Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 Smaller items don't produce a sprite so you can't actually see them even if you're staring directly at the guy holding them It's not meant to fix problems it's meant to make the mechanics more believable and immersive. It doesn't create any problems because any sane person with an intention to due something malicious wouldn't try to stuff a phoron bomb down their pocket in front of a sec officer
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