[2 Dismissals - Bin Sun/29/2018]]Remove the detective's revolver's lethals

[alexpkeaton]

-snip-

 

This, in its entirety. Detectives are not meant to be first-line responders. Giving them lethals makes them such, regardless of intent. And they will gladly claim their valids and will enjoy the plausible cloak of "I just happened to be there at the time" in ahelps until they are given their rubbers back permanently.

+1 to suggestion: strip Dick Tracy of his lethal rounds.

[MO_oNyMan]

I mean if you guys /really/ want to go into "this makes logical sense" for giving a detective lethal ballistic rounds in a pressurized space station, first it doesn't make sense

if you mean the bullets can penetrate the hull than it's not really true. You need to purposfully shoot out an entiremagazine into one section of wall in order to break it.

 

and second of all, I doubt there would ever be an actual "detective" position within such a small population.

two words: corporate espionage

 

If anything, detective is a purely investigative job that should be more like IAA than an Officer, except for things beyond standard protocol violations etc.

They investigate actual crime while IAA investigate [whatever they investigate]. They need a reliable mean to defend themselves that would cover for most situations (in the same way that officers' belt full of stuff covers for almost every situation), but they don't have a belt full of stuff so they need a universal tool. Which is a lethal gun

[Asheram]

I'd prefer if we switched the lethals over to stun rubber bullets as well.

It doesn't happen often, but I have had occasions where a "non-regular" Detective drags someone into medbay because they shot them with the belief that they were carrying a non-lethal weapon. To my (albeit somewhat dated) knowledge about other servers, Aurora is the only one who has a lethal weapon for the Detective.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Guest

[sonicgotnuked]

I am going to agree moving detectives lethals to the armoury.... BUT make it rubbers, not stun. Rubbers would enforce detectives not running about shooting their gun about due to the limited ammo. With the stuns, detectives are just going to recharge them and they will be held to lower criticism.

[MO_oNyMan]

I must point out that "it's just a game and noone gives a fuck about in-game consequences" is the laziest argument i've ever seen. What is even worse it pops up occasionally in a number of conversations. It annihilates the entire concept of HRP server and the principles by which it operates. We have rules for believable characters, we have CCIA, we have security that (contrary to certain people's beliefs) is not only there to validhunt. Removing an ICly reasonable tool that detective (or anyone for that matter) posesses just because they might abuse it is not the solution to the issue. People bring out anecdotes about bad detectives who shoot someone for no reason, while all you have to do is punish them for it. We have tonns of means to do that (ranging from security to CCIA and adminhelp). Instead of mechanically removing every possibility for people to make a mistake and calling it HRP, let them choose what they want to do with their character and suffer the consequences of it.

[Worthy]

I must point out that "it's just a game and noone gives a fuck about in-game consequences" is the laziest argument i've ever seen. What is even worse it pops up occasionally in a number of conversations. It annihilates the entire concept of HRP server and the principles by which it operates. We have rules for believable characters, we have CCIA, we have security that (contrary to certain people's beliefs) is not only there to validhunt. Removing an ICly reasonable tool that detective (or anyone for that matter) posesses just because they might abuse it is not the solution to the issue. People bring out anecdotes about bad detectives who shoot someone for no reason, while all you have to do is punish them for it. We have tonns of means to do that (ranging from security to CCIA and adminhelp). Instead of mechanically removing every possibility for people to make a mistake and calling it HRP, let them choose what they want to do with their character and suffer the consequences of it.

 

Except it's not. It's not a reasonable ammunition/tool to have for a detective. We aren't supposed to expect severe hostilities or antagonists, this is part why armoury slugs were removed. Because we are not supposed to expect having to put somebody in the ground for good. A station of this size and purpose having a detective and CSI to begin with is dubious at it's best. But I'm not arguing for the removal of their roles. I'm arguing to remove the live ammunition from the detective's revolver. Starting with code blue ammunition on round start is simply not realistic, if you want to argue HRP.

[MO_oNyMan]

Except it's not. It's not a reasonable tool to have for a detective. We aren't supposed to expect severe hostilities or antagonists, this is part why armoury slugs were removed. Because we are not supposed to expect having to put somebody in the ground for good. A station of this size and purpose having a detective and CSI to begin with is dubious at it's best. But I'm not arguing for the removal of their roles. I'm arguing to remove the live ammunition from the detective's revolver. Starting with code blue weaponry on round start is simply not realistic, if you want to argue HRP.

 

Station crew consists not only of humans. And not only humans are capable of crime. IPCs and Vaurca are species represented on station as a part of the crew (which detective has to interact with). Rubber bullets is not something you want to have when in a room alone with a giant bug or a robot that doesn't feel pain. The lack of lethal option at hand is questionable even for officers that are far better equipped.

As for presense of investigators on station, as was stated before corporate espionage is a thing that exists and realistically happens.

[Worthy]

Both vaurca and IPCs are far more easily subdued with a flash if they are not wearing eye protection. ignoring the fact that flashing a vaurca is unethical as fuck, but still less so than lethaling them with a revolver. And they should not be wearing eye protection if they are known to be hostile and subdued, once again live ammunition adding nothing to this scenario.

Corporate espionage is a fair point for why a detective would be onboard.

[Scheveningen]

We even have pamphlets on "what to do in the event of meeting a spy."

Detectives exist to investigate internal security issues. This may also extend to homicides and etc. The detective (plus the rest of security) is basically the first person to be spoken to whenever a crime scene is found. Likewise, they make for a pretty good victim if the prime criminal investigator gets killed.

The revolver exists as a self-defense weapon. It's not meant for anything else. If it's being used questionably, report it ICly first, and if that doesn't work out, try OOCly if it's that bad.

[Worthy]

Once again, I'm not arguing for the removal of their revolver. I'm suggesting to remove their lethals on round start. Rubbers can still very much function as a self-defense weapon, without straight up ruining antagonists.

[Doxxmedearly]

I'm in favor of replacing lethals with rubbers. I think it makes a good deal of sense and cements its role as a self-defense tool during standard operations.

[MO_oNyMan]

Both vaurca and IPCs are far more easily subdued with a flash if they are not wearing eye protection. ignoring the fact that flashing a vaurca is unethical as fuck, but still less so than lethaling them with a revolver. And they should not be wearing eye protection if they are known to be hostile and subdued, once again live ammunition adding nothing to this scenario.

 

Flashes are a capable tool, yes. But as a guy who was carrying a flash for almost the entire playtime on Aurora i can say that they are hella unreliable. Eye protection is pretty easily acquired. You don't always expect the suspect to be actively hostile as a detective so you don't always bring backup just in case you need to dogpile a synthetic. CQC with bug or synthetic is a pretty bad idea in general and if they acquire a ranged weapon (like a crossbow) you are in a very bad position.

I would somewhat get the reasoning of swap for rubbers if sunglasses were contraband. There is currently this weird system where Odin security bans sunglasses (because they are not available in a loadout) but they are not considered contraband on-station. But i think they should be allowed (however that's entirely another story and another conversation)

 

Once again, I'm not arguing for the removal of their revolver. I'm suggesting to remove their lethals on round start. Rubbers can still very much function as a self-defense weapon, without straight up ruining antagonists.

self defense capabilities of a rubber ammo against an IPC or a vaurca are non-existant. As for the gunmen ruining antag rounds, i don't think antags that do stuff that warrants a lethal response, get showered with bullets should expect to just shrug it off. There not that many situations that would get decent security to fire at you. Just don't murder civilians and you're pretty much good. I mean, look at the ninja for example. The guy shruggs off lethal rounds and the shift turns into cat and mouse with ninja cutting legs off of officers. A more subtle and smart approach where ninja does not provoke security into death and destruction is much more enjoyable (not to confuse with peace ninjas plz)

[Kaed]

The standard issue uniforms and armaments of the security team are not designed to cover every possible potentiality, and for the most part, humans are very human-centrist in their equipment planning (how many special xeno gloves or boots do you see in round without equipping them via loadout or ordering via cargo?). Flashes work on pretty much everyone, but that's not why they are there, it's because flashes work on humans, the primary player race in the server, and the extra stuff is just icing on the flash cake.

Therefore, I want you to understand that 'well without lethals I can't stop a vaurca or IPC from trying to murder me' is not really a consistent argument with the tone of the setting. Officers do not start out with lethals or EMP pistols 'just in case of bugs or robots.' Detectives are not a special case scenario because 'muh universal self defense'. The concept of self defense equipment for crew members involves -disabling- your human opponent, not murdering them. The same brush applies to 'well some antags are immune to being rubber bulleted'. Nanotrasen does not equip you with antag./xeno-destroying items, they equip you with items to restrain or disable fellow humans crewmembers.

So, if your detective is all alone, being attacked by bugs or robots, here is an alternative to feeling the game owes you a special favor for defending yourself with starting equipment: Run away and call for backup, instead of trying to be the hero the station needs.

You can tell me that 'people don't care about in game consequences is lazy argument' all you like, but the reality of the situation is that rambo mentality runs deep in the player base, and the people that act like sane humans instead of trying to win an engagement in their disfavor and posthumously bitching about low rp antags or broken game mechanics is a very small percentage.

[Itanimulli]

Don't we usually raise the alert level because the detective has come into contact with a dangerous and hostile individual?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I can agree with Kaed in part. That is why rubbers and lethal in armory is better. Running away is not always possible.

[alexpkeaton]

I must point out that "it's just a game and noone gives a fuck about in-game consequences" is the laziest argument i've ever seen. What is even worse it pops up occasionally in a number of conversations. It annihilates the entire concept of HRP server and the principles by which it operates. We have rules for believable characters, we have CCIA, we have security that (contrary to certain people's beliefs) is not only there to validhunt. Removing an ICly reasonable tool that detective (or anyone for that matter) posesses just because they might abuse it is not the solution to the issue. People bring out anecdotes about bad detectives who shoot someone for no reason, while all you have to do is punish them for it. We have tonns of means to do that (ranging from security to CCIA and adminhelp). Instead of mechanically removing every possibility for people to make a mistake and calling it HRP, let them choose what they want to do with their character and suffer the consequences of it.

 

See, here's the disconnect: the detective is carrying lethals on green, then. What is your response to that?

[Scheveningen]

So does the captain, the head of personnel and the head of security?

[Pacmandevil]

who are all considered high priority targets and typically should have some means of defending themselves?

[JMJ_99]

and someone that is often completely by themselves with criminals shouldn't?

[Scheveningen]

Isn't the detective a high priority target, considering how he's in charge of tracking down criminals just as much as any security officer but with more hands-on investigative nuances?

Also consider that he has a gun. The fact that he has one should make him more of an attractive target for an antagonist to mug for his gun, access, etc.

[Korinra]

Isn't the detective a high priority target, considering how he's in charge of tracking down criminals just as much as any security officer but with more hands-on investigative nuances?

Also consider that he has a gun. The fact that he has one should make him more of an attractive target for an antagonist to mug for his gun, access, etc.

 

By that logic, the CSI should also be armed with weapons. I've played CSI enough times that I can safely say, bad guys come back to the scene of the crime sometimes and I see them alone or in a small group. I'd think CSI and Detective are equally valuable for different reasons for hunting down criminals.

The bottom line is, the Detective and CSI have one thing officers don't have, time. A Detective or CSI can always ASK an officer to join them, I've done this, and not once has an officer said they DIDN'T want to help me secure a crime scene or speak with a suspect. I think the logic is, if the Detective is doing something that is risky, it would be smart if he just took backup and a stun weapon JUST in case, but lethals just doesn't make sense.

[Kaed]

The guns provided to all the heads of staff you mentioned are energy weapons, and aside from the captain's infinite ammo laser beam, all of them have a nonlethal setting.

It's also worth noting they do not do a staggering amount of damage, and it's nearly impossible to kill someone with the energy pistols the HoS and HoP get, both because they don't do enough damage, and because they don't leave shrapnel in your body. which is far more deadly to an antagonist than some burn damage.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Heads of staff have a whitelist they need to keep, which may temper their urge to lethal.

[MO_oNyMan]

See, here's the disconnect: the detective is carrying lethals on green, then. What is your response to that?

 

IPC and Vaurca.

 

The standard issue uniforms and armaments of the security team are not designed to cover every possible potentiality, and for the most part, humans are very human-centrist in their equipment planning (how many special xeno gloves or boots do you see in round without equipping them via loadout or ordering via cargo?). Flashes work on pretty much everyone, but that's not why they are there, it's because flashes work on humans, the primary player race in the server, and the extra stuff is just icing on the flash cake.

Therefore, I want you to understand that 'well without lethals I can't stop a vaurca or IPC from trying to murder me' is not really a consistent argument with the tone of the setting. Officers do not start out with lethals or EMP pistols 'just in case of bugs or robots.' Detectives are not a special case scenario because 'muh universal self defense'. The concept of self defense equipment for crew members involves -disabling- your human opponent, not murdering them. The same brush applies to 'well some antags are immune to being rubber bulleted'. Nanotrasen does not equip you with antag./xeno-destroying items, they equip you with items to restrain or disable fellow humans crewmembers.

So, if your detective is all alone, being attacked by bugs or robots, here is an alternative to feeling the game owes you a special favor for defending yourself with starting equipment: Run away and call for backup, instead of trying to be the hero the station needs.

You can tell me that 'people don't care about in game consequences is lazy argument' all you like, but the reality of the situation is that rambo mentality runs deep in the player base, and the people that act like sane humans instead of trying to win an engagement in their disfavor and posthumously bitching about low rp antags or broken game mechanics is a very small percentage.

 

Security equipment is designed to cover every reasonable scenario and then some. "Reasonable scenarios" should be covered by equipment people carry on their belts or in their pockets. "and then some" should be covered by equipment available in the armoury, orderable via cargo or creatable via RnD. Speaking to IPC or vaurca suspects is not as rare of an occasion as for example fighting space pirates. It's pretty standard actually and should be accounted for. The sudden human-centricity of NT means they are focusing on protecting humans over other species as well. However that doesn't at all mean they ignore tools to deal with xenos and robots.

Running away and calling for security is a great alternative for regular crew but not for the detective. His job consists entirely of interacting with potentially dangerous elements in different settings where escape may or may not be readily available. Depriving him of his means for self defense is carelessness that can not be justified ICly any way you look at it

 

The guns provided to all the heads of staff you mentioned are energy weapons, and aside from the captain's infinite ammo laser beam, all of them have a nonlethal setting.

It's also worth noting they do not do a staggering amount of damage, and it's nearly impossible to kill someone with the energy pistols the HoS and HoP get, both because they don't do enough damage, and because they don't leave shrapnel in your body. which is far more deadly to an antagonist than some burn damage.

Okay, so let's give the detective a better version of an e-pistol to be able to swith between lethal and non-lethal on the fly (since we're in the future or something). I still think it's not a very good idea since it would encourage frivolous use of firearm and validhunting but it's at least better than locking lethal option in the armoury.

And if you're concerned with players having rambo mentality, fight the mentality, not the tools used by it.

[Worthy]

I have no idea how you can consider IPC and Vaurca existing on board proper justification for a detective to carry lethal ballistics. As it's not even the most effective way to disable them. Both are brute resistant, one is completely immune to pain and shrapnel has way less effect on them. If you're in a scenario where you're ''incapable of running away'' which are very very rare scenarios, unless you intentionally get yourself in shitty positions, you are usually going to be in close quarters. Where a vaurca is more than happy to disarm you of your gun and blow your brains out with it or simply bite you to death. Lasers are way more effective against taking both out, even more effective is stungear, once again suggesting you rely on your officers more.

Also a flash is unreliable? As someone who plays officer almost exclusively it's one of the most reliable tools in an officer arsenal, as a lot of people simply neglect to carry eye protection. Infact it's pretty much the first item you think of using when you're going through the thought process of ''okay, how do I down this guy the quickest.''

If we're going into a little indepth combat mechanics, you basically want to start with tools that can't be used against you if you get disarmed of it. A revolver very much can be used against you if you pull it out and lose it. And if you're in a situation where your opponent is not close enough to disarm it from you, you are in a position to run away. Were you to have rubbers this would be less of a risk, as the detective is armoured, and thus rubbers have less of an effect on him than his hopefully unarmoured opponent, which they should be, because if they are armoured, why are you talking to them alone?

We are also not suggesting to ''deprive him of his means of self defense'' as you are stating. We are depriving him of his ammunition to put people in the ground, and instead giving him a proper self defense ammo which is rubbers.