CampinKiller

Accepted

Accepted

The main issue is that it’s a heavy and uncomfortable thing to wear all day. You could extend that argument to security and say, “well a combat hard suit is part of their life-saving gear,” which I think everyone can see why that would be a problem. As LVS said this is an ahelpable thing. Regardless of that, we should just have one hardsuit and not two

A reminder to only post in complaints if you are involved. If you're not sure, ask the staff member(s) handling the complaint

On trial through 11/12/23

On trial thru 11/12/23

There's several areas that could use more attention (and I've talked about some of those areas already, so I don't want to force anyone to read more of the same), such as off-worlders, some planets being expanded, getting an idea of how the CoC as a whole works militarily, etc. More worldbuilding, specifically, is in need of expansion, and while I think the sports lore I mentioned in the OP is a good idea, there's some other areas that would be good to expand worldbuilding lore in. I like your ideas regarding more lore about crime and underground criminal organizations within human space, and I like botanist's idea regarding medical advancements/biology of modern humans. All of these, I think, would be great additions to the lore. 1. My biggest flaw when it comes to (potentially) lore writing is that I lack confidence in my actual writing abilities. Obviously I don't think it's terrible, since I'm applying to be a lore deputy, but I do feel that I have several areas of writing that I lack in. For example, I'm not very good with descriptive writing, I sometimes ramble/use the same words over and over, and I tend to write in bursts rather than just sit down and hammer something out in one go. Possibly ironic that I'm applying for a position that involves a lot of writing and listing writing as my biggest flaw, but I do feel like it's my biggest weakness in terms of a lore team position. 2. I'd say my best attribute in regards to compromising is that I am very considerate and open-minded of other people's feedback and opinions on something. I'm not particularly hard-headed or stuck in on doing something just the way I want to do it, no matter what. I'm definitely open to compromise and working out the best way to take whatever idea I may have from just an idea into a full-fledged arc, wiki article/rework, or addition. I will not ever say that I think this is EXACTLY how something should go, and that's just how it's going to be, because I know that's just not how to put out the best work. 3. I don't think there's anything that I would be nervous to write about, per se, so much as I'd just be aware of it. While I certainly think there is room for community feedback or input with lore, arcs, and events, I don't think that writers should be dissuaded from writing about certain topics because of potential negative feedback, backlash, etc. I don't see myself being worried about negative feedback on what I write, just because I tend to not let things like that bother me. If it's constructive feedback, I would be receptive to it, but if it's something that's just a "I think this sucks," I wouldn't really pay it any mind. 4. I think it's in a healthy middle ground. There's certainly not too little, given the size of human lore, but I don't think it's oversized or bloated either. By virtue of being the only unwhitelisted species, most of the characters are human, most players at some point play humans, and I would wager a majority of active characters are humans. This necessitates a large amount of lore for humanity, as otherwise you would have a limited selection of backgrounds, origins, and backstories for a large amount of the playerbase. I'd even say it would be nice to see more lore, as I've discussed on some of the potential expansions/reworks that I think human lore could do with. 5. I don't think one is better than the other, but rather that they each have their own place for storytelling. Article arcs should be used in a few different scenarios. First, when the arc is very long and will span a significant amount of time, (ie. months), where having a series of in-game events wouldn't be feasible. Second, when it's a relatively short arc that's intended to set something up, quickly show some development for a faction, or some other news where an in-game event wouldn't really make sense. Lastly, when the playerbase and their decisions within an in-game event won't have any bearing on the arc itself (ie. unrest in Dominia while the Horizon is orbiting Xanu). And in-game event, in my view, is something that should be run when the choices the Horizon and its crew makes will have some sort of tangible effect on the outcome of the arc, and the arc should be written in such a way as there's a general storyline, but the outcome of each particular event/storyline/plot point is not necessarily always pre-determined. Even just a mini-arc of an event or two should have the player involvement have some bearing on what goes on.

If I had to pick favorites: Silversun - It's probably not a surprise to see that the planet my most played character is from is on this list, but I think Silversun's one of the better planets in human lore. It is well-developed, with two differing "cultures" on it, which creates an interesting dynamic for backstories and conflict, and there's enough written on it that gives you a good idea of what life, and the planet, is like. My only point of improvement there would be that I'd like to see something done with the "high tensions" of the Original-Expatriate conflict, which have gotten worse since the collapse, but haven't had any real mention. Konyang - Konyang is another planet that I think has been extremely well development and is very easy to "see" how life is there, and what the planet itself is like. Before it seceded from the Alliance, I liked that it was a very unique planet when compared to other planets within Sol, especially with IPC rights, and since it left for the Coalition, I think it provides the Coalition with another "powerhouse" so to speak. Xanu - Xanu is another planet that I enjoy, and a lot of that comes from its massive rework and expansion. It is a planet that is very easy to imagine, and has a wide variety of backgrounds for characters that come from it. As probably the most important planet of the Coalition, it is really good to see that it's been developed so well. Least favorites: Novi Jadran - Novi Jadran's a fairly important colony in Dominia, but doesn't really give you much to work with, being relegated to a few paragraphs on the Dominia page about it. There is a good amount of information in those paragraphs that I think would be nice to expand on if it actually had its own page, which I think would be the biggest point of improvement for the planet. Gadpathur - Gadpathur is a planet which has things I really like, and things I really dislike. I like the concept of the planet, the history, and how the culture is very unique and razor-focused on ensuring that they don't have their planet fall again. What I do not like, however, is also related to the culture, and that is how completely monolithic it is. While it makes sense to an extent, given the culture and authoritarian government of the planet, I think it really stifles potential characters and kind of places them into a limited box of opinions and behaviors. I'm not suggesting there should be a Gadpathur subculture of loving Sol or something, but I think 150 years after reunification, with Sol not having come after them, you'd see some question why the planet is still being ruled with an iron fist Bursa - Similar to Novi Jadran, Bursa is the only Elyran planet without a page, and it was the site of the Lii'dra invasion of Elyra. I'd like to see it expanded out like other pages, with Bursan culture, what life is like there, how the planet has been coping since the invasion, etc. Right now there's none of that. I think it's presently something that's largely a holdover from the before times, and in need of some attention. I was a fan of danse's proposed rework when it was first made, and kind of lost track of it after awhile, but I would like to see something similar to that implemented, and would be willing to help out on the development side of it as well, if needed. 1. I think there's room for improvement on the cross-over, but it's been done well in the past, and I'd like to see more of it. Generally speaking, I think that having more crossover is a great way for the setting to feel more alive and, of course, allow for unique relations and advancements. I liked the Hegemony-Sol mini-arc about an infamous pirate being caught, negotiations happening, and the Hegemony getting to exact justice, and even just shorter arcs like that would be nice to see, because it would allow for the cooperation between some nations/species (or tension) to be better shown as actively ongoing/changing, and just better development overall. To that end, I think the weakest point of those crossovers currently is the lack of them, though I think that could be fairly easily remediated by having a few more. 2. Outside of Sol, I think there's a lot of potential for the other nations in terms of arcs and where they could go currently. I think I mentioned there's been a lot of "conflicts" that we see mentioned in lore, but don't really actually see represented even by smaller article arcs. I think it would also be nice to see some of the rivalries within the Coalition rear their heads, if it's appropriate (similar to how they did during the San Colette arc). One thing that seems to have been forgotten from the Dreary Futures arcs is the unrest in Elyra that was (allegedly) caused by Dominia, that resulted in the two nations severing diplomatic relations. This is something that should be picked up and moved forward I think, and as much as I don't want to have a theme of the Spur always being 2 seconds from another war, I think these two should have some sort of showdown that eventually leads to re-established (if tense) relations, and provides a showcase of two nations not named the CoC or Sol. As for the CoC, I went on a lot about a potential summit arc with Sol in relation to Gadpathur and Konyang, but then I think they need to figure out what they are going to do as a whole. While some individual planets may want to seek rapprochement with a (hopefully) changed Alliance, others (ie. Gadpathur, Himeo) are likely to be quite wary of that. In my mind the CoC is going to need to figure out where they want to go, especially with Biesel having turned itself into a major power since the collapse, and the ever-present Dominian pirate raids and Elyran encroachment. 3. Like I've said earlier on, I think there's a few different ways that they should be expanded, because currently they are not really well-represented in lore, I think, especially in active development (though the recent Scarab rework was great). I'd like to implement those two additions/reworks I discussed earlier (more on their biology and more notable communities of offworlders) at a minimum to really show them as being different to your regular human, outside of the few things that are currently present that showcase this. I would like to see a minor arc with the Scarab Fleet as well, just to give them a bit of attention in actual happenings.

I think with the reconstruction mandates and the recent defeat of the warlords states in the north, the Alliance itself is in a more nationalistic period, and is likely to elect parties and people that represent that in some manner. Namely, I think the two major candidates the Alliance will see are Strom and Trang - both are at the head of nationalistic, anti-corporate parties, and are fresh off of reuniting the Alliance from the warlords and violence it had found itself engulfed with. It's also clear they do not want to return to the status quo of a pseudo-democratic authoritarian government from before the collapse, so I think overall the Alliance would pull towards a democratic, more populist or socialist ideology. I don't see the anti-corporate sentiment taking a backseat, either, especially with the CRZ. Whereas Biesel was historically more of a thorn in the side of the Alliance since secession, now it is a legitimate threat and has taken vast swaths of territory the Alliance still sees as its own, all while backed up by some of the same corporations that they view as having a hand in the chaos. With that in mind, I think while/after they resolve the question of Konyang, you would see the Alliance turning its focus towards the CRZ and Biesel, and may even find themselves unlikely friends in Elyra, given the current tension between them and Biesel. Depending on how Konyang works out, I think the Alliance would seek rapprochement with Xanu and other member states of the Coalition that are of a more sympathetic view towards it. Obviously Gadpathur would pound the table and proclaim there's nothing that can be trusted out of the Alliance, but as I mentioned above, the Alliance is going to want to turn its attention towards Biesel and the CRZ, especially when you've got a place like Mictlan that's clearly not outright accepting of being part of the Republic, among other things. Xanu and other Coalition members would, I believe, be happier to see the Alliance focusing on resolving things in the CRZ as opposed to staring down the barrel of another war. The Alliance would, of course, like to not have to be worrying about that side of things while they refocus. Yeah, I think an expansion of the lore on reconstruction and post-Violent Dawn life would be good additions to Mars, maybe even a small series about the goings-on there over the time since it was reunified. I do think anything with Mars' actual recovery will be a long-term prospect, given the scale of what happened there, but it wouldn't hurt at all to see some effort being made by the Alliance to rebuild it, and showcasing the (likely) continued conflict from the Martian people.

I don't think there's anything that I personally dislike, but I think I would approach it with more care than I would for something I am heavily interested/invested in. That is not to say that I think I wouldn't have care in my own ideas or things I am more interested in, but rather that I would recognize I'm not as interested, still work hard on it, and be more proactive with having it looked over by others, and ensuring it lines up with the overall goal/vision for whatever it may be. I think offworlders could do with more than just a short blurb in regards to their biology. These are humans that have descended from generations of living in low/zero-gravity, yet there is not much of an idea of what sort of differences there are from a biological standpoint, outside of muscle atrophy and lankiness. I think expanding on this, getting a better idea of the typical lifespan of offworlders, and exploring some of the more unique medical challenges they face (outside of the need for RMT) due to these biological changes would be a good start. Adding some notable smaller communities of offworlders would be another avenue of improvement as well. Right now offworlders really just have the Scarabs as a significant point of origin, and I think that working in some other, more concrete potential origins would help offworlders have more of a presence in the lore, because currently it's hard to get an idea of exactly where some have ended up, outside of Valkyrie and Burszia having brief mentions of them (which could probably be expanded on). Additionally, I don't ever recall offworlders having even a shorter, minor arc or articles written on developments within the Scarab Fleet, for example. A quick search shows that the last mention of them in any news story at all was during KOTW. Even a quick arc - maybe a new Fleet Director election, or the Fleet facing a spat of challenges - would breathe a little more life into the offworlder lore.

Ckey/BYOND Username: CampinKiller Position Being Applied For: (Wiki Maintainer, Lore Developer, Deputy Lore developer): Human Lore Deputy Have you read the Lore Team Rules and Regulations wiki page? Yes Past Experiences/Knowledge: No relevant past experience, but I would consider myself knowledgeable of human lore given I've been around for nearly 10 years, and actively playing consistently for the last 2-3. Examples of Past Work: None Why are you applying for this position and why do you believe you would make a good Human Lore Deputy? I am applying for this position because I want to be involved in the lore development. While I recognize I have no past contributions, I have been following the lore for years (albeit off and on in the earlier part of my tenure on Aurora, but consistently since a bit before KOTW), and I feel that I am well-versed enough to be able to contribute as a lore deputy despite that. Additionally, I am good about getting things done when asked and have no problem working with other team(s) and on other people's ideas. What is your favourite part of Human Lore and why? What is your least favourite? My favorite part of human lore is Sol and how the warlords (and now reconstruction) has played out over the last year. It was a breath of fresh air to see the potential for the wildlands realized, and I think there's still possibilities for arcs in the aftermath, what with the elections, and now with the Alliance once again united and active on the Spur's geopolitical stage. My least favorite part of human lore is probably off-worlders. I've never really been too terribly interested in them, mainly because there isn't a ton of lore outside of the Scarabs. The recent rework of the Scarab Fleets was really good, but I still think off-worlders are at the bottom of the list for me. What are three projects (medium to large sized additions, reworks, or arcs) you would like to do or help organize if made Human Lore deputy? (NEW PLANETS OR FACTIONS ARE PROHIBITED FROM ADDITION AT THIS PRESENT TIME. DO NOT INCLUDE THEM IN YOUR ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION.) There is still unresolved tension between the Alliance and Coalition regarding the changes in territory post-collapse, Gadpathur supplying the league, and Konyang. Gadpathur remains cut off from the warp gates in the Coalition as a result of this. While there was a brief arc where the (now reformed) Alliance was seen back on the diplomatic stage with the Hegemony, I think these issues would be the perfect set for a major diplomatic arc between the Alliance and Coalition. Though first the elections would need to be resolved, as the Alliance's goals/response would likely differ slightly depending on who wins. One that's a combination rework/addition that I would like to do is in regards to the Coalition and its military (or lack thereof). While I like the way it currently is, with member-states contributing to the military as required (as seen in Amor Patriae), there's not really much of a sense of how the Coalition works when that happens. Is it a true interplanetary force, with appointed/voted on overall commanders, or does everyone kind of do their own thing with a committee or group of some sort determining overall strategy? It's a bit of a hole in the Coalition's lore, I think, and I'd like to rework it to where there's a least some idea of how the interconnected militaries of the CoC come together when called upon. I'd like to add more worldbuilding lore to the human factions as well. One avenue that I think would be interesting from that side of things would be national (or international) sporting leagues and events. It would make sense for a lot of the bigger (current) sports to have continued, and while some planets have mentions of sports, there's not really any sense that they exist outside of the various planets. Ideally each nation would have a league or two of some sort, be it regional or national, and having some sort of multinational competition would be a nice aspect as well. What do you believe are the current strengths and weaknesses of human lore? Why? What would you do to improve upon the weaknesses? The current and unrivalled strength of human lore is the diversity and size of the lore. There is a large number of backgrounds to choose from, leading to a wide range of characters, conflicts, and possibilities. While some of the lore has been reworked over the years, human lore benefits from a literal decade of development and additions and is a creative treasure trove. The biggest weakness of human lore currently is that there's quite a few conflicts between factions that are ongoing, that we don't really hear much about. Some of it is understandable, you can't have an arc for every conflict, but it feels like some of the conflicts like Elyra-Dominia, Coalition-Dominia, interplanetary beefs in the Coalition, etc. we haven't really ever heard a ton about, even if it were just a quick couple of articles about a new development or the status quo. What are your thoughts on the past arcs that have been organised by the human lore team? I think they have been excellently done. Amor Patriae was probably the best arc I have seen during my time on the server, even over KOTW. Even just being an article based arc, without any sort of server events, it was some of the most well-executed development I've seen. It definitely had the most investment from the player base of an arc that I've seen in a long time. What is an idea for a future arc that you would like to have a part in writing and organising in the future? (Note: If you provided an arc or arcs as part of your answer for question 3, you may expand on the ideas for that arc or arcs here, or you may provide another idea.) To expand on the idea I presented earlier, a Coalition/Sol diplomatic showdown, I'll summarize what I think would be good plot points: The Alliance election concludes and the winner wants to address the issue of their renewed neighbors in the Coalition - specifically, Konyang's status and Gadpathur's funding of the League. Depending on WHO wins the election would likely set the tone for how bold/demanding the Alliance is here. Obviously someone like Strom would be more demanding, for example. Gadpathur has remained cutoff from the Coalition warp gates for some time and would like that to end, though they still believe they did nothing wrong. Alliance demands that Konyang's secession be recognized as illegal and the planet rightfully returned to the Alliance. They also want reparations or further sanctions on Gadpathur. Xanu and others laugh, but do not want war, and counter. Some sort of summit takes place, and a referendum happens on Konyang. Based on the outcome of the referendum, some more negotiating happens and everyone walks away with a deal they can live with. Probably some favorable trade deals, special status. Gadpathur reconnected but potentially has some sort of sanction still. Have you ever been subject to any strikes or bans of any kind from Aurora's moderators or admins? If so, how long ago were these actions and what were they for? I had my command WL stripped in 2018 for avoiding CCIA punishments.

I have seen a lot of talk about how people will be mad at medical or mad at new medical players, etc, but if that happens those people should be ahelped to be dealt with. It is not acceptable to snipe at people because their character dies, or they are newer and didn’t know obscure medical fact #758. Additionally, as wezzy said, these arguments have come out anytime a nerf happens to medical. Nobody likes dying, but just because this is an HRP server doesn’t mean there should be a lack of potential consequences or danger. Everyone likes to talk a lot about how dangerous the setting is, but it sure doesn’t feel that way when people can get shot 30 times and still survive because an FR on sensors was there in .2 seconds. All this does is make communication more important, as it should be! Command or security or whoever is going into a dangerous situation should be telling medical and telling people so they can send an FR to follow or at least prepare. This game is about interaction, and you get more interaction out of discussing that you’ll need medical to stage than just staring at numbers

I don’t think there should be any external oversight or authorization needed for in round punishments, save on an OOC level for people potentially breaking the rules. Admin run or not

This is comparing apples to oranges. One is the removal of one singular person from the round, the other is a round-ending sequence that also destroys the entire vessel. I would rather the final sentence of an antag not be left up to some off-ship thing with no stake in the round (read: CCIA, who may not even be online at the time).

I agree with arrow and ramke above. I've not seen borging used as much as this thread seems to suggest, and I don't see a need to change how it is done. There's always been waves of how the most severe punishments are handled. When marooning was new, you couldn't go a round without someone getting marooned. I think there's just been a spike in captains that are willing to borg people if they bomb the ship/kill people/whatever, and I don't really see an issue with it. Most heads won't vote for borging as a punishment anyway.

Thank you for applying, but we are going to be denying this application for now. I will reach out on discord shortly with more information. Feel free to reapply in a month.

I'm going to be denying this for now. Feel free to reapply in about a month. I'll reach out on discord with more information.

During all the testing I did, the radiation was always gone with plenty of time to exit maintenance. I did forget to update the description of the PR with the announcement, which I had intended to change, but gave me a merge conflict no matter which way I did it. Regardless, I've put up a PR to change the announcements slightly and extend the maintenance access time to compensate for the radiation needing to dissipate. https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/17250

Reporting Personnel: Logan Wright Job Title of Reporting Personnel: Head of Security Game ID: cpz-a4jG Personnel Involved: Wu'll Xorlaq, Off-Duty Crewmember - Offender/Victim Korza Rokuraz, First Responder - Offender/Victim Xorie'Ayouni Jixktu, Pharmacist - Victim/Witness Secondary Witnesses: Ta'Akaix'Nangeren C'thur, Consular: Interviewed Wu'll Xorlaq and Sidney Taylor regarding the incident, got me up to speed on the incident, and provided evidence and testimony of other witnesses who were no longer on shift. Sidney Taylor, Lab Assistant: Witnessed part of the fight, transcript attached. Reem Faladay, Atmospheric Technician: Believed to had witnessed part of the fight, but had retired below decks. Chimalma Quintana, Security Officer: Assisted in the arrest of Wu'll Xorlaq and processed them. Time of Incident: Unknown Real Time: Before 0730 CDT, 8/31/23 Location of Incident: SCCV Horizon Medical Bay Nature of Incident: [ ] - Workplace Hazard [ ] - Accident/Injury [ ] - Destruction of Property [ ] - Neglect of Duty [ ] - Harassment [X] - Assault [ ] - Misconduct [X] - Other: Assault with a Deadly Weapon, Attempted Murder Overview of the Incident: Immediately after I came on shift, it was reported to me by the Federation Consular, Ta'akaix'Nangeren C'thur, that a serious security incident had occurred. An off-duty skrell by the name of Wu'll Xorlaq became involved with a knife fight with a First Responder, Korza Rokuraz, in the ship's medical bay. This resulted in both persons being seriously wounded. Additionally, one Xorie'Ayouni Jixktu was wounded by the pair as they attempted to break it up. Nangeren had interviewed Xorlaq and another witness and provided me transcripts. While Xorlaq was claiming self-defense, given the nature of the incident, and questionable reasoning for carrying a knife on them, I elected to place them under arrest on the charges of attempted murder and assault, as I was informed that both offenders in this case had caught Jixktu with their weapons, beyond stabbing each other several times. Rokuraz had fled down to the residential decks, but I received authorization to have them arrested and brought to the brig from the SCC Communications Officer. Additionally, I would recommend placing Xorlaq on suicide watch, as they stated in front of me and Officer Quintana that they would potentially harm themselves as a result of this incident. Submitted Evidence: Transcripts of Nangeren's interviews with Xorlaq and Sidney Taylor: Would you like to be personally interviewed?: [X] - Yes [ ] - No Did you report it to a Head of Staff or a superior? If so, who? If not, why?: A report was faxed to the nearest SCC Communications Post. Actions taken: Wu'll Xorlaq was placed under arrest on the charges of Attempted Murder and Assault. We received authorization to hold them indefinitely during our investigation, as well as apprehend Korza and do the same. Additional Notes: N/A

Okay me and Loorey have taken a look at the logs and what's been posted here, and come to a decision. From what it appears to us, this round had a mess of communication, especially over the security radio. There does appear to have been sufficient reason for @Ricky_the_banshee and @DrPockets to suspect Johnson was up to something, and given the Head of Security ordered him to be detained and searched, which was reported to have been resisted, we don't see an issue with the suspicion. Unfortunately when communication breaks down during a chaotic round, sometimes people get the short end of the stick, but it's not necessarily any one persons fault, nor metagaming. As for the arresting/charges, it appears to have been another issue with the cluster of communication and round coming to an end. In summary, we don't think there was any targeted metagaming of any sort, the round was just chaotic and communication questionable. Additionally, if you do suspect there to be metagaming going on, please ahelp it in round. It is much more difficult to look into in this fashion. If there's nothing else, this will be locked and archived in 24 hours.

Me and @Loorey will be handling this. First would like to get @Ricky_the_banshee and @DrPockets side of the story

This has also always been the case. With few exceptions (ie. orders from Command, ling revival, uncontainable threat, etc.) security has always been expected to arrest someone after the immediate threat has subsided, even if they have just been shot at by said person

You're missing the point of the rule, I believe, which is that we don't want people waltzing up to the downed mercs and one-tapping them or headgibbing them when they're downed. If you're exchanging lethal fire, nobody is expecting your goal to be to arrest them, it's to neutralize the threat. But once they're no longer a threat and are downed, they should be arrested should the circumstances allow it, not given a summary field execution. To pull a real-world example, police do not go up to people they've just shot and put one more in them for good measure, they handcuff them and begin rendering aid.

I was involved as security. Gonna give my perspective. We had 0 clue that the merc team was there until an officer happened to jump on cameras/see a motion alarm (not quite sure which). Until that point, all of security was standing in the main ring chatting. Note that this was at, maybe, 0:25 of round time. By the time we arrived to Ops (probably 3 minutes later), every door had been bolted shut, sandbagged, and it was a position that was suicidal to assault. Before we could even reach out over common, it was reported that the mercs were heading upstairs and trying to leave. This is still before even a half hour has passed in the round. I bumped straight into you guys running from the Ops lift towards your shuttle. I misclicked (the first shot), but even then I think I didn't really have much choice but to fire as you guys ran away with all of our valuable items that we're supposed to protect. Had I simply stood there I imagine I would've been gunned down or everyone was going to keep running, since nobody on the merc team said a word to anyone prior. There was ample opportunity to interact with the crew, and especially security, when you were barricaded in an entrenched position in Ops. Instead, you and your team decided to just bounce and say nothing. Realistically had an officer not happened to see you guys on cameras, I don't think we would've ever run into you