evandorf

This is what I mean when I say I think the issue is subjective. You think they don’t fit but I do. It’s a matter of opinion and after so many replies on both sides I don’t think anyone is changing anyone else’s mind. That’s why a compromise is needed. The minimum a whitelist will do is to reduce the number of borgs you run into, which should be good if you are irked by borgs. If implemented properly then whitelists can also be used to cultivate a better average borg player. For those who like the stationbounds the whitelist would keep the role we like to play at the cost of having to go through the whitelist procedure and the long-term cost of reducing the popularity of the role as it becomes less accessible to others. This may lead to support for the role withering entirely but it keeps it viable for possible reworks without being removed.

I agree. While I still think the issue is primarily subjective if there is enough of a consensus that something should be done a whitelist is probably the best and easiest option to attempt first. If, as many of the anti-borg posts have said, a whitelist would only serve to kill off the role then I don’t see why they would be opposed to it as it serves their interests. I personally don’t believe it will kill off the role but it is a good compromise that still allows those interested in the role to play it.

Completely. Looking back on it I think I was a little miffed that my character in particular hadn’t been violent at all but in hindsight I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect Matt to have that context especially when he is getting second hand info on the intruders in general.

Improve Don't Remove doesn't mean nothing can be removed or nerfed; it's a baseline. We don't want things to be removed out of hand without an attempt to try an mitigate whatever the issue is because then it will truly never come back without the will to overhaul or rework it. There are plenty of people who enjoy borgs but even if we agree they need to be changed there are plenty of alternatives that have been suggested which should be tried first before outright removal. These changes don't require a rework or an invested dev to impliment; whitelists, removal of the engi/medic modules, access restrictions, ect.

If I had any coding ability I would be more than willing to try and rework it. If medic and engineering are the most affected and AI had already been placed squarely in research then maybe removing the mediborg/engiborg is a reasonable step. It could be that the research option is the only option. There are so many diverse parts of research that a borg could find a spot to help and not be in the way. I would say that other modules like mining should stay because it makes sense but in the new map I don’t know that mining borgs can or should be just taking the shuttle.

How is someone supposed to know that they are irritating you or causing you issues if you don’t let them know? Pestering or harassing someone is ahelpable but the player has to know that it’s an issue to be at fault. I understand that some people have issues with confrontation but you have to take some reasonable action to resolve the issue via normal means. If it’s really an issue I would say ahelp and have the mod/admin speak to them if it’s something you feel uncomfortable with. I wouldn’t have any issue doing that for someone and I don’t think other staff would either.

Telling a borg off is barely an interaction. If they refuse and draw it out then that’s an issue with the player not abiding by server rules and should be ahelped. It’s not an issue with borg as a role and something that can be resolved with other suggestions made in this thread like a whitelist.

I don’t understand why a dislike for how you interact with a character equates to being unable to roleplay with others or having your roleplay suffer in general. There are plenty of characters that I don’t care to interact with. For instance, I dislike talking to dionae. I know some people don’t feel comfortable interacting with unathi because of their somewhat problematic culture. In these cases though there is a reasonable expectation on your part to take steps to inform the other player oocly and take steps ICly to distance yourself. In the case of borgs, the laws make it very easy to do so.

But you’re not required to play them and you’re not required to interact with them. There are people who find them fun to play and fun to interact with. It’s completely subjective. I don’t think removing a role that people enjoy and has utility during lowpop rounds is justified by the reasons given. I think limiting slots on highpop is a good step and possibly even limiting access based on their assignment is reasonable but we should stick to Improve Don’t Remove.

After reading through the replies I still feel like the majority of issues raised with borgs can be resolved with systems already in place ICly and OOCly. An issue would have to be serious enough and without other recourse to overcome the ‘Improve Don’t Remove’ standard. The through-line I see from many of the detractors that has no system in place to correct is the subjective dislike and irritation but I would argue that this runs counter to the other claim that borgs provide no RP value. A dislike of synthetics is almost baked into the existing lore and it’s good to have a “living” reminder of that in-game. Negative interactions with your coworkers are just as valid for RP as positive interactions.

It might be good to make the number of borg slots inversely proportional to the round pop. More borgs when there are fewer people and vice versa. If you canonically make the SCC scrap borgs as cutting cost how will that effect regulations and severe punishments? We already don’t have executions because borgification is a stand-in.

I think a lot of the issues brought up in the original post can be resolved with systems already in place. If a borg is doing your job you have every right to tell them to stop or get reset and do something else unless you’re superceded by your head or the Captain. If there was no machinist to do a reset I would completely be onboard allowing them to respawn to choose another module If a borg is power gaming, meta gaming, or acting outside of its lawset then ahelp it. I’m not totally against a whitelist for them but they are much more manageable than an AI to deal with. As far as them being boring to play or being boring to interact with I would have to say your mileage may vary. I don’t interact with every crew member every round. Having “NPCs” in the background helps the ship feel less empty. I play AI and borg because I have less agency and not despite it. I don’t think it’s fair to say a role should be removed just because you, personally, don’t like it.

Basically I thought it would be interesting for strong races like G2s, some vaurca, unathi, ect to be able to have a very limited ability to use extra large weaponry or tools like the ones mounted on mechs. You would have to give severe penalties for doing so and probably also a likelihood of injuring yourself in the process but it would be fun.

In my experience, one thing that can slow security or command’s roll and really control an area are mines. Even if they’re not completely blocking access somewhere just having them peppered in a zone where people have to be mobile to avoid fire is enough to make most people stop and reconsider. If you made them easier than the normal kind to deactivate, or even have a percent chance to be a dud, makeshift mines might be a good addition for antags and rev specifically since they could force communication without having to necessarily overwhelm/overpower security.

I feel like this suggestion is trying to fix a problem that exists across every antag role; that the most obvious (or simplest) story/situation that can be crafted for the role is either stale, LRP, or unengaging. And I don’t just mean at the gimmick’s conception but throughout the round. If your rev gimmick doesn’t gain traction and you start to flounder then a kneejerk reaction might be to pull out loud weapons and start escalating. But I don’t think the solution to weak gimmicks or story ideas is to limit the tools the antag players have at their disposal. I see similar attitudes towards technomamcer, who IMO has the widest array of tools to craft any number of scenarios. I’ve had a lot of success with techno gimmicks by making it almost unrelated to the techno role, like playing an advanced IRU collecting on a debt, but all those good ideas get washed away in the tide of resentment people have towards the more likely, stale, and less engaging scenarios. Limiting the tools available feels like attempting to police RP indirectly while at the same time making it more difficult for others with better ideas to make those happen.

Could you not just tie weapons into the firearms management that the HoS and Warden have access to? Also, walking walls on green seems like the kind of thing stationbounds are made for. If I’m in my shell as AI I will often put it between weapons fire and the crew even though I have almost no offensive capabilities.

I feel like someone doing this would be akin to a bartender serving an unathi an ethanol drink. I'd rather have people deal with the IC consequences because being able to draw attention to ( and have interactivity with ) the different racial traits adds depth to the setting and IMO is worth the risk. But I agree that it shouldn't be so severe that you are instantly killed. That would be ridiculous.

I have to agree with Matt. Although I liked sec-borgs at the time I think the way they change the dynamic is too much. Now, if you could re-add crisis borgs that have to be remotely piloted by actual crew from the crew armory for emergencies...?

As the title suggests, I just want to be able to set the holodeck to desert and warm my lizard body. Could also make it cold when set to snow or space.

How about a body mod/tatoo salon? Possibly near the rec area, there's a decent maint space above cryo. Basically lets someone give you body markings outside of character creation.

We can already see shoals of carp on sensors. Just throw out a line as we drive by.

I think a dart board would be fun. Put it in the lounge for drunken patrons to make bad decisions with and generate work for medical.

Just to add context to your battle debrief, I was the other Elyran and due to the PEAC and a frag I was deaf until the Ensign and I got back into our ship to recover and regroup. We were getting other sec coming up the main stairs and I chased them down till they fled into medical.

Just out of a personal dislike for lawyers or do you think they’d cause problems ICly?

I am actually in favor of a lawyeresque role. I think it could be very interesting hrp if done correctly but you might have to put it behind a whitelist to make sure they don’t try to actively interfere in command or security actions. It would all be purely bureaucratic and post-chaos accountability.