Re-enabling IPCs to be allowed into the Cult with changes.

[Chada1]

Recently, there was a PR to outright remove IPCs from being round start Cultists or convertable, placing a link to it here. https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/4711

There is currently a Contributor working on a refactor that will:

1. Make IPCs convertable again into Cultists.

2. However, remove blood casting for IPCs, as they do not have blood nor can they repair themselves.

3. And make Cultist IPCs (Only when converted) immune to Cult EMP magic.

This would solve most of the problems presented in the recent suggestion, and still allow IPCs to contribute to the Cultist gamemode without being a drain on their Cult allies or being doomed to serve as a construct.

Feedback appreciated.

Pozes PR: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/4734

A new PR has shown up after discussion to reinclude conversion, the only problem is as it stands it's effectively the same as soulstoning an IPC except you convert them into one instead, only the IPC gets to choose which Construct it plays as.

Arrows PR: https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/4779

Edited May 22, 2018 by Guest

[Scheveningen]

It was not my intention for the aforementioned PR that got pushed through to master to have been merged straight to master. I think that was a slight mistake for it to be pushed through within the 4 day period.

Anyway, sure, I'm okay with this provided they aren't capable of interacting with the runes in any way, but still retain their initial strengths.

Let them use talismans too, as the talisman is already incanted through another person's self-sacrifice of blood.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Having the runes made with motor oil instead of blood would be nice, but this is probably as good as we'll get.

[Itanimulli]

still think it's entirely possible for IPCs to draw in blood, considering Narnar literally transmutes everything. Just make it take twice as long to draw runes or something.

[Butterrobber202]

I still don’t see how evil blood Jesus overrides coding but meh. I guess it’s better than it was before

[Itanimulli]

I still don’t see how evil blood Jesus overrides coding but meh. I guess it’s better than it was before

 

If you haven't guessed 'magic,' promptly detonate, please.

[PoZe]

Having the runes made with motor oil instead of blood would be nice, but this is probably as good as we'll get.

 

I mean it won't be difficult for me to make them draw in oil instead of blood. It took me around 1-2 hours to make current changes which are ready.

Currently IPCs will not be able to draw blood, but they are still able to use them and use talismans as both rune and talisman had someone's else blood. I will also remove IPCs from taking random brute damage from using talismans, unless we should leave it?

[Kaed]

Can we just leave IPCs out of the cult entirely? Make them enemies of the cult, they don't have blood, or souls to steal. They're just robots. Why do cult mechanics have to apply to everyone?

Changelings can't suck them. Neither can vampires. They're immune to most of their powers. Let them be different and outside the influence of the mystical (and biological)

[TishinaStalker]

I still don’t see how evil blood Jesus overrides coding but meh. I guess it’s better than it was before

 

Do we *need* to explain how an evil, eldritch Outer God from beyond the veil should work? Not understanding is like, one of the main themes in general cosmic horror and the Cthulhu Mythos.

That being said, I still don't see why IPCs were barred from being cultists just because oil. If anything, I'm more with Itanimulli for once on the whole transmuting oil into blood is a nice touch towards that.

[Scheveningen]

Because the transmutation comparison is simply not the same? Life is fuel for Nar'sie in the alternate dimension that they exist in. Blood sacrifice and blood spilled in the name of Nar'sie is what gives Nar'sie incredible amounts of power to influence other realms and eventually invade them. IPCs are synthetic, and their fluids are not native to a cardiovascular system. They do not have a heart-beat, nor a form of subtle mental consciousness that can be affected by the darker presence of Nar'sie's magic.

Even in the magical realm, energy is not created or destroyed, it is transferred or manipulated. These basic rules apply all over the spectrum of the genre of fantasy. If we're a server that prides itself on in-character and roleplay justification for actions undertaken for different associated reasons, the same standard should apply to anything magically related. It's an extremely inconsistent narrative to push that the presence of magic should be a completely overriding storytelling element.

[Kaed]

Like Schev is saying, the majority of arguments for IPCs can be summed up as handwaving reasons why they should be included (it's magic lol), rather than applying any kind of logic or balance to the situation.

There's no actual reason WHY IPCs should be included in this. They lack many essential vital properties that living creatures with blood and souls have. What you are providing is JUSTIFICATION for why they can be cultists. Why would Nar'sie expend the effort to convert all the oil of a synthetic being into blood when, by the logic of this revision, they can't even function as a full cultist and are fundamentally crippled in utility? It would be like Nanotrasen hiring a blind and paraplegic person but giving them an expensive mechanical hoverchair and proximity alert system to help them not run into walls. The cult of the geometer is not an affirmative action organization recruiting incompatible workers out of pity. They're here to get shit done.

The real reason is this: No one has coded it out until now, and there was a very valid reason for it being coded out, narratively speaking.

It's much more appealing to have some things on the station that are just outside supernatural events than invent reasons to shoehorn them in.

[Itanimulli]

Like Schev is saying, the majority of arguments for IPCs can be summed up as handwaving reasons why they should be included (it's magic lol), rather than applying any kind of logic or balance to the situation.

There's no actual reason WHY IPCs should be included in this. They lack many essential vital properties that living creatures with blood and souls have. What you are providing is JUSTIFICATION for why they can be cultists. Why would Nar'sie expend the effort to convert all the oil of a synthetic being into blood when, by the logic of this revision, they can't even function as a full cultist and are fundamentally crippled in utility? It would be like Nanotrasen hiring a blind and paraplegic person but giving them an expensive mechanical hoverchair and proximity alert system to help them not run into walls. The cult of the geometer is not an affirmative action organization recruiting incompatible workers out of pity. They're here to get shit done.

The real reason is this: No one has coded it out until now, and there was a very valid reason for it being coded out, narratively speaking.

It's much more appealing to have some things on the station that are just outside supernatural events than invent reasons to shoehorn them in.

 

This is actually pretty false. Every rendition of Nar has them corrupting EVERYTHING. Even borgs, in some servers, become servants to Nar, and where it exists, Ravtar. Narratively speaking, it's an inter-dimensional conqueror who takes over everything. It doesn't just transform living beings. It goes so far as to completely change the station itself. Anything NarSie Can use, it will use.

IPCs also have souls, last I checked. We've confirmed this multiple times through multiple rounds.

The point is, there's no point in changing what we already had in the first place. This was just a relatively useless change that only served to make cult rounds have slightly less options in terms of who can do what. The last thing we need on a cult round are limits. Borgs are already ganked as soon as the cult goes loud, because the cult can't really use them in any viable manner.

IF we continue with this logic, there's no point in stopping with IPCs. Continue to Vac, because they are connected to the hivenet, and either they ALL get converted at the same time, or none of them convert at all. Make LIs useless against Nar.

What this is is essentially a cult nerf, and I can't stand for that, because the cult is already too damn scared to do anything until a shuttle call half the time in the first place.

I don't know if you play IPCs or not, but I'm sure lots of people would be kinda against being unable to participate in a round the way they've used to be. This was never an issue before. It's an almighty god doing as it wishes, because we have magic.

If you'd like to pull the logic card, make IPCs completely immune to all magic that exists in the lore.

I'm really disappointed you're trying to make sense out of the extradimensional otherthing. It's narsie for fuck's sake, not a dionea/ling cult. There is no aversion to specific people. Nar does what it wants.

[Sytic]

If you make Cult IPC's immune to their own AOE EMP (which I imagine it'd be a bitch to code) then I am all for it. As is, it's fucking irritating being a Cult IPC because everybody around you is locked off from practically their most powerful weapon in order to keep you alive. It's ridiculous.

[Bygonehero]

Ipcs have souls. The entire point of magic is to be unexplainable

[Kaed]

I'm pretty sure the fact that IPCs have souls or not is something that's hotly contested ideologically among many different races. There hasn't been any 'confirmation' that IPCs have souls beyond 'hey the game mechanics create a ghost from a corpse because that's how the game works and it hasn't been changed to reflect differing situations' (much like until now there was no coding regarding IPCs not being converted, and for a while, way back, changelings could sting and impersonate IPCS). It would probably not be hard to make it so IPC 'ghosts' are at a higher invisibility value than other ghosts, making it so cultists and such can't see them with their revealing abilities, and also add code preventing them from being soul stoned.

Bam, now IPCs don't have souls as far as IC interaction goes. All antagonist rounds where you can actually 'see' ghosts due to supernatural stuff are 100% noncanon, too, so you can't use them as a precedent for canon.

 

The point is, there's no point in changing what we already had in the first place. This was just a relatively useless change that only served to make cult rounds have slightly less options in terms of who can do what. The last thing we need on a cult round are limits. Borgs are already ganked as soon as the cult goes loud, because the cult can't really use them in any viable manner.

IF we continue with this logic, there's no point in stopping with IPCs. Continue to Vac, because they are connected to the hivenet, and either they ALL get converted at the same time, or none of them convert at all. Make LIs useless against Nar.

What this is is essentially a cult nerf, and I can't stand for that, because the cult is already too damn scared to do anything until a shuttle call half the time in the first place.

I don't know if you play IPCs or not, but I'm sure lots of people would be kinda against being unable to participate in a round the way they've used to be. This was never an issue before. It's an almighty god doing as it wishes, because we have magic.

If you'd like to pull the logic card, make IPCs completely immune to all magic that exists in the lore.

I'm really disappointed you're trying to make sense out of the extradimensional otherthing. It's narsie for fuck's sake, not a dionea/ling cult. There is no aversion to specific people. Nar does what it wants.

 

This is a slippery slope argument and most of it is irrelevant and off topic speculation.

It is very rare for there to be more than 4-5 IPCs in a given round, even on high population. This is not 'limiting the options of cult', it's creating a new dynamic where they have individuals they have to oppose (all synths, instead of certain synths, 4noraisin) instead of rushing to convert them because they are basically immune to everything and are a very easy powergaming race after being converted, assuming you still want to make them immune to EMP.

If cultists are scared and timid all the time (hint: they aren't, this is a hasty generalization. I see many rounds with aggressive and active cults), that's a larger issue, and not getting to claim the less than half dozen IPCs that show up in a standard round is not going to largely change it.

Every 'xeno' race comes with certain restrictions and privileges, roleplay and mechanically. You aren't owed the right to play a cultist because you want to play an IPC, any more than I, as an unathi main, should be allowed to play a captain just because I like playing unathi. There are many other antagonist roles an options available to an IPC, without needing to keep this one open to them simply to not hurt the players feelings when they feel excluded, when narratively speaking there isn't a good reason for them to have it. If you want to be a cultist after this, just... don't be an IPC. It's not hard to make a different character.

[Chada1]

There are multiple other reasons that IPCs shouldn't be part of the Cult currently. One of their most important spells kill them for petesake, and all of their spells damage them and they cannot repair themselves. Changes are absolutely necessary and the only reason I made this suggestion is because the Lore dev for IPCs didn't support their removal from Cult and I saw a valid compromise -- To fix the underlying problems with IPCs joining Cult.

As it stands, IPCs have multiple mechanics reasons that inhibit them from being a Cultist and doing everything that a Cultist needs to do. This change is aimed to make them not dead weight. The reason casting is being removed isn't just because it's unbelievable, it's because it damages them and they can't repair themselves, and with 8-10 casts they have broken limbs. The reason it would be restricted is that they can't use spells without being a hinderance to their allies, the believability is just icing on the cake.

Also [mention]Kaed[/mention] Nar'sie corrupts the entire Station, you mean to tell me it's unreasonable that it could corrupt a simple IPC?

[Kaed]

Also @Kaed Nar'sie corrupts the entire Station, you mean to tell me it's unreasonable that it could corrupt a simple IPC?

 

Nar'sie corrupts the entire station when he arrives on our plane itself. By then your status as living or synthetic is completely irrelevant because reality is being warped. But you can't convert borgs or AIs, for heck's sake, I don't honestly see a compelling reason why IPCs should be convertible too unless you're going from a purely mechanical standpoint, which says you can 'because they have hands and count as a human mob'. Are they somehow super special snowflakes that are completely different from other synthetics? How is that, exactly? There isn't really a reason being given other than 'nar'sie can do anything he wants'. Which again, is a justification for inclusiveness, not a logical reason for doing this.

Even you admit it's not tenable for them to be a regular cultist because of how their self-damage mechanics work. Why do you think being a crippled half cultist is somehow more reasonable than just... not being able to be a cultist, for the sake of narrative consistency?

I'm also PRETTY sure (but not completely certain) that you take damage from using rune papers, because it's still using a rune. The only benefit is you can carry the rune in your pocket. So this doesn't even solve the problem?

[Chada1]

Also @Kaed Nar'sie corrupts the entire Station, you mean to tell me it's unreasonable that it could corrupt a simple IPC?

 

Nar'sie corrupts the entire station when he arrives on our plane itself. By then your status as living or synthetic is completely irrelevant because reality is being warped. But you can't convert borgs or AIs, for heck's sake, I don't honestly see a compelling reason why IPCs should be convertible too unless you're going from a purely mechanical standpoint, which says you can 'because they have hands and count as a human mob'. Are they somehow super special snowflakes that are completely different from other synthetics? How is that, exactly? There isn't really a reason being given other than 'nar'sie can do anything he wants'. Which again, is a justification for inclusiveness, not a logical reason for doing this.

Even you admit it's not tenable for them to be a regular cultist because of how their self-damage mechanics work. Why do you think being a crippled half cultist is somehow more reasonable than just... not being able to be a cultist, for the sake of narrative consistency?

 

Because 'borgs are linked to the Station and usually to the AI. Even if Nar'sie corruptd their code they would resync with the master server. IPCs are not linked to anything. IPCs with the Loyalist implant which is the equivalent of being locally lawed if you think about it, are still immune.

Also; Poze is the one coding this, and he asked a question just on the last page on whether to remove paper damage to IPCs. Maybe you should answer that.

[Kaed]

Because 'borgs are linked to the Station and usually to the AI. Even if Nar'sie corruptd their code they would resync with the master server. IPCs are not linked to anything. IPCs with the Loyalist implant which is the equivalent of being locally lawed if you think about it, are still immune.

 

Eeeh. You still can't convert an unlawed borg or AI, so. Alternate interpretation:

it's something fundamental about their nature as technological beings. And the loyalty implants, I'm glad you brought those up - they're a technological defense. Much like borg and AI, the cult cannot influence something that is technological, because as he is the Geometer of Blood. "I'm a magical dark god I don't gotta explain shit lol" is unsatisfying and lazy as an explanation for this inconsistancy, as far as I am concerned.

IPC being unlinked to things only means as much as you choose to make it mean, and code can easily be changed, like it already was here before you made your PR.

The point is, we can argue with each other until we're blue in the face, but I don't support this PR. Synthetics should stay out of the cult, just like they stay out of vampires and changelings. Organics only, fool.

-1

[Chada1]

That's because in all technicality, 'Borgs and AI can't *be* unlawed. They can only have their laws wiped, they are still subject to the law system, it is only refreshing their laws as null. Hence, still immune to Nar'sie.

As for the rest, the main reason I made this suggestion is because I saw a compromise, more than likely the restricting is going to be reversed by the IPC Lore dev IMO, this is just a happy middle ground.

[Kaed]

-scrubbed for being irrelevantly snippy- Edited May 15, 2018 by Guest

[Chada1]

Ok, now you're just derailing the thread. This isn't to code 'borgs as being convertable. This is about IPCs. Arguing for why 'borgs should get the same treatment as IPCs or the reverse is foolhardy, they are not the same.

[Kaed]

Fine, then just accept that I don't agree with you and take the hint that I don't want to argue this any more, please. I don't like it, you're not convincing me here.

[Azande]

We'll have to wait a month due to dev rules, but I approve of this change.

[DronzTheWolf]

Can we just leave IPCs out of the cult entirely? Make them enemies of the cult, they don't have blood, or souls to steal. They're just robots. Why do cult mechanics have to apply to everyone?

Changelings can't suck them. Neither can vampires. They're immune to most of their powers. Let them be different and outside the influence of the mystical (and biological)

 

This.

Absolutely this.

I think we should remove IPCs from all mystical antag shenanigans, wizwoz and all. Let them be creatures of logic and known things, not heralds of the mystical and biological anomalies.