Make ERT admin spawn only until NBT comes out

[Scheveningen]

Real talk: ERT tends to ruin more rounds for the antagonists (aka, the driving forces in the round) than it does enable roleplay for everyone.

Being able to call ERT by a two-swipe authentication amounts to mostly being an instant "Oh Shit" button that also amounts to not only pressure antagonists from escalating to such a degree that command kneejerk responds with crying wolf to Central Command, but once called it deploys one to five heavily geared commandos with extensive expertise in whatever, with no real respect to character creation limitations in skill range. The ERT are not even 'characters', they are deployed via ghost role to clean up the mess, regardless of the size of the mess.

Whitelisting won't help the issue since it'll still generate issues where people who get whitelisted for it end up being scrutinized much of the same way as command staff, in addition to some rounds being strapped from ERT because there's nobody with a whitelist who is ghosted. Sometimes the whitelist screening misses a player that is horrid for the mentality that the role requires.

Removing them entirely is stupid, so here's an idea: Leave it up to admin or even CCIA discretion to decide whenever an ERT is really needed. Take it out from the player ability to dictate when they can spawn and suddenly all the issues regarding the ERT will be massively sized down to their lack of presence.

Another upside to this is that security mains will have to learn how to play again, without a gratuitous "mistake forgiven" button that permits them to respawn as way deadlier than they were before. Over time this will be gradually more healthy for the game state, even with the initial short-term feeling when the lack of presence of the ERT is noticed during worst-case scenario situations.

In the words paraphrased from an orange man: "We need a total and complete shutdown of ERT entering the NSS Aurora until our community's admins can figure out what the hell's going on."

[Garnascus]

Honestly, i am not comfortable with the responsibility for a few reasons.

1. We all know the general operating for staffing an SS13 server. You usually tab in when you hear the bwoink and then figure out what to do about it. Sometimes it can be hard to get important context from doing this but its just a reality of a server that is up 24/7...ish. It might end up being a little difficult to determine if ERT need to be called or not if it becomes the ONLY way for ERT to be spawned. Outside of super obvious "everyone is dead" situations.

2. When an administrator affects a round they assume a lot of risk. Its kind of off putting to do because it ends up feeling like you're ultimately responsible for people having a good time and people having a bad time. You yourself admit that ERT most commonly end in a bad time for everyone and i do not really disagree with this. I just feel like this will impression administrators away from bothering outside of the super obvious situations from my first example.

3. Assuming this did go through i do not see how its possible to ever satisfy players in using it. generally things of this nature are left up to administrator digression. Which will lead to situations of "you called ERT for X but not for Y". It is certainly an issue we could deal with but im not really sold on it being worth it.

[Scheveningen]

1. We all know the general operating for staffing an SS13 server. You usually tab in when you hear the bwoink and then figure out what to do about it. Sometimes it can be hard to get important context from doing this but its just a reality of a server that is up 24/7...ish. It might end up being a little difficult to determine if ERT need to be called or not if it becomes the ONLY way for ERT to be spawned. Outside of super obvious "everyone is dead" situations.

 

Come up with a rule that relates to living-to-dead ratio. If the amount of dead characters reaches over 30% of the original roster, maybe an ERT can be spawned. If there's any doubt the admin has a right to say, "Let the antags have this one," and tell whoever whines to deal with it.

 

2. When an administrator affects a round they assume a lot of risk. Its kind of off putting to do because it ends up feeling like you're ultimately responsible for people having a good time and people having a bad time. You yourself admit that ERT most commonly end in a bad time for everyone and i do not really disagree with this. I just feel like this will impression administrators away from bothering outside of the super obvious situations from my first example.

 

While I can understand this being something that might challenge the typical zone of comfort that an administrator is used to (as the accepted standard is that admins are hands-off with the round unless it's an event, or if there's something buggy or griefy that needs their direct intervention to set right), I do believe it is something that is worth actively considering for staff that are modding during rounds.

 

3. Assuming this did go through i do not see how its possible to ever satisfy players in using it. generally things of this nature are left up to administrator digression. Which will lead to situations of "you called ERT for X but not for Y". It is certainly an issue we could deal with but im not really sold on it being worth it.

 

Dying is never satisfying, but getting revenge on one's own in-round killer in a revived life as ERT for some players gives them a lot of instant gratification, to the point where they'd self-motivate to ensure that would happen, especially with how ERT is kitted and balanced presently. Cloning already presents this problem but is undercutted thanks to CMD. ERT, however, inevitably ends in their final confrontation with the round antagonist where only one party tends to walk away free from the situation.

I believe it's worth its own degree of trouble compared to the troubles that are arguably much more problematic in consequence that happen in-game in the present.

If this isn't possible then I'd lobby personally to have ERT disabled regardless of the situation.

[Snakebittenn]

Here's an idea. Remove the red suits and the military weaponry. ERT is now solely eng/med auxiliaries.

[Bauser]

Replace ERT with a generic "distress beacon" that can either summon help (like the eng/med auxiliaries Paradox suggested) OR summon more trouble (The first ship to hear your distress call was pirates, so good luck)

[Coalf]

Now this is the real chonker.

You say it's an instant gratification button for people who die.

People usually die when rounds are being escalated and the people that usually die tend to be security officers.

It is very appropriate to call ERT in a round where security is majorly crippled/ completely disabled.

Meaning that the situation in which ERT is appropriate to be called, is exactly the kind of situation you hope to avoid.

This is a self-fulfilling prohecy, ERT is most appropriate to be called when people are dying by big numbers. Big number of people means big dangerous ERT full of people with revenge boners. Which means it becomes more and more of a snowball.

Giving admins the abillity to call ERT whenever appropriate would not stop people from becoming ERT during the times when ERT is appropriate, which is usually during the times when security lost which results in the instant gratification.

In essence ERT itself IS the win button. And it doesn't matter if an admin or a player can press it, due to the fact that when ERT is not appropriate to call, there are no ghosts anyways.

tl;dr ERT is way too good at their job and overequipped, severely limiting their equipment would help much more than actually the way they're called.

[Evandorf]

It might be useful to make the ERT a double edged sword for command.

Have them come aboard and take care of any issues, but because they were called they will effectively suspend the Captain and/or the heads of staff under whose authority the problem lies. Similarly to how it's the CE's ass if the engine blows. The company, having to waste resources securing the station might consider the relevant heads as guilty of neglect. Arrests and transport back to Odin may also apply.

This way you can have a force to stop overwhelming antag forces, but command may also lose their positions and freedom.

This may require the ERT role to be whitelisted, but I think that would be fair if given more power.

[furrycactus]

I'm pretty sure it used to be like that, a horde of unwashed, unwhitelisted ERT troopers would come onto the station and give command the boot. And in my experience with playing command at the moment, there's a number of troopers that still come aboard and act as though they're now in charge. If it's about a combat or safety issue sure, but when ERT come on and start bossing me and my department around, especially when half of them aren't whitelisted and don't know what they're talking about, it's a huge problem. We call them to help us, not take over. If they're whitelisted, that's not as bad, but dear god please no. Don't give ERT an even bigger power trip. Especially not power to arrest and charge heads with neglect of duty, just for being called, if a problem happens that wasn't directly their fault.

[Evandorf]

No, I agree. They would need to be whitelisted if given that power.

[Arrow768]

There are a few things mixed together.

Giving ERT more power and the ability to charge heads of staff with neglect of duty for being called is a very bad idea.

Regarding removing the players ability to call ERT:

As outlined by coalf usually ERT is called if security is dead or inoperational due to other means.

Therefore removing the ability to directly call ERT would not help, as should be granted in those circumstances.

The issue with "severely reducing" the equipment available to ERT is that our current antags have been buffed in a way that even ERT can have a hard time against most of our antags and that ERT has been used quite often as a reason that we need to buff certain antags.

(One example are those cult EMPs that only effect non-cult members; amongst many other things)

If the capabilities of the ERT would be reduced severely we would have to take a good look at the current antag abilities.

Then there are also the other usages of a ERT.

Sometimes a ERT isnt needed because of the firepower, but because a small group of antags is constantly poping up in multiples placed throughout the station, keeping the station at a code red, as a confirmed threat is still present.

Calling a ERT is used to tell the antags to either wrap it up and leave or face the ERT and therefore providing a end to prolonged rounds.

I see a few ways to change the ERT:

* When swiping for a ERT a reason has to be specified.

* The actual activation of the ERT is delayed by a few minutes, giving available staff time to stop a ERT if they deem it not required.

* If the round went on for less than two hours or there is still a large number of security officers active, then the ERT is delayed by 15 to 20 minutes (before ghosts even get the option to sign up as ERT); Alternatively just use the number of total deaths.

These changes together will force the present heads of staff to provide a actual reason why a ERT is needed and allow staff to cancel the call if they deem that the ERT is not needed.

They will also allow the antags to prepare for a ERT (if the round is still relatively "new").

[Evandorf]

There are a few things mixed together.

Giving ERT more power and the ability to charge heads of staff with neglect of duty for being called is a very bad idea.

 

Can you extrapolate on this?

If ERT was whitelisted it would be of some deterant to calling the ERT early or without reason.

[ben10083]

I see a few ways to change the ERT:

* When swiping for a ERT a reason has to be specified.

* The actual activation of the ERT is delayed by a few minutes, giving available staff time to stop a ERT if they deem it not required.

* If the round went on for less than two hours or there is still a large number of security officers active, then the ERT is delayed by 15 to 20 minutes (before ghosts even get the option to sign up as ERT); Alternatively just use the number of total deaths.

These changes together will force the present heads of staff to provide a actual reason why a ERT is needed and allow staff to cancel the call if they deem that the ERT is not needed.

They will also allow the antags to prepare for a ERT (if the round is still relatively "new").

 

I agree with a delay system for swipes, when command asks Central for ERT, especially early in the round, we usually check things such as what antags are present, what Central knows about the situation, and the time of the round. These factors usually have us either delay the ERT (Hence the announcement about ERT assets occupied), deny the request and recommend alternatives, or of course approve it.

A delay will allow us to look at the situation and see if we should allow ERT to be summoned or not.

As a side note: I said this before and I will say this again. Whitelisted ERT is a BAD idea. Here is what will happen if we add whitelists to ERT;

1. We will have times when ERT is called but no one can spawn as them due to lack of whitelistees (and no, staff are not an alternative if this happens)

2. We will have people quickly cryo and join ERT if they are whitelisted, since no one else can do it.

3. ERT will likely have less people (I am thinking maybe 1-2 on slowish days) and will be powerless against mercs or cult.

Overall, whitelists for ERT will make them unusable, but delays to ERT would be a good idea for antags to properly prepare to either leave or make a stand.

[Munks]

No thanks, the problem is that there isn't enough pressure on the Command team to exhaust every possible option (including cracking open the vault and distributing hazard rigsuits) before calling for help rather than going to ERT. As usual the problem is with the quality of our command players and there is no reason to basically remove (yes, i said basically remove, we can barely even get CCIAA/admin responses to our faxes as is, without having to rely on them to give us ERT whenever its needed) the role.

The suggestion to turn the ERT spawn button into a general distress beacon is more interesting an alternative and something I've thought of sometimes myself, and if something needs to be done it should be that. Activating the beacon would bring attention, for better or worse, to the station and make its status as a crippled NT facility in need of assistance to anyone who might be within range, be it an ERT patrol or something less desirable.

[Evandorf]

That would be interesting. So, for example, if there was a cult present and you swiped for ERT, you might get an ERT or maybe it spawns a Merc team?

One that command would have to pay or placate for help?

[Fluffy]

ERT are currently admin spawn only, so this suggestion is considered outdated/implemented.

Locking and archiving.