Give Skrell Sol Common

[Snakebittenn]

Title. In reference to https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/5787   
Thread creation authorized by VTCobaltblood.
Personally, I am in support, though apparently this needs a thread.

Edited December 17, 2018 by ParadoxSpace

[Allakai]

While I am not entirely opposed to the idea, I am a little bit cautious I guess. Every species has their own 'special' language they can resort to and feel comfortable talking in. While I'm not against the idea of allowing skrell to take Sol as a language, I feel it would kinda take away from the uniqueness humans have (implying humans are unique lol).

 

I don't mind the idea, but I am more neutral than anything on the matter. Just my two cents :^)

 

[Snakebittenn]

Sol Common is not even a unique species language. It's a unique regional language. Not a lot of characters even take it.

[Skull132]

More like this requires lore dev approval on top of that. 

[Itanimulli]

I thought the point of TCB was literally because skrell couldn't speak sol common.

[SeniorScore]

Just now, Itanimulli said:

I thought the point of TCB was literally because skrell couldn't speak sol common.

Yes Basic was made with the purpose of having a universal languages all xenos could clearly speak. That being said I don't have an issue with them being able to understand it but speaking it's a bit much. Ripping further identity from humanity into, as it stands, more engaging mechanically species is just asking for issues in terms of justifying that species' existence. Also IPCs. Fuck them.

[Allakai]

1 minute ago, SeniorScore said:

Yes Basic was made with the purpose of having a universal languages all xenos could clearly speak. That being said I don't have an issue with them being able to understand it but speaking it's a bit much. Ripping further identity from humanity into, as it stands, more engaging mechanically species is just asking for issues in terms of justifying that species' existence. Also IPCs. Fuck them.

Basically this. Several of my human characters (All of three lmfao) have Sol common and are all from Sol. I agree with Senior on this one. Very least allow skrell to understand it. : ) 

[Conspiir]

3 minutes ago, Itanimulli said:

I thought the point of TCB was literally because skrell couldn't speak sol common.

TCB was actually made prior to the discovery of the Skrell, believe it or not. If this is the reason it was made, I suggest a loredev look at the timeline of its creation again, because it doesn't really add up.

 

If they can't speak it, which I have no problem with, they should be able to understand it. But that takes more code. When someone mentioned the ability to understand, but not speak, the obvious example was "Well, borgs can do that!" but there was some issue with translating that to people, I think.

[Snakebittenn]

Being that Skrell can vocalize in pitches humans cannot hear (the !s and  *s in skrellian) there is no reason they should not be able to vocalize mandarin.

[SleepyWolf]

This was requested due to the 60 year long relationship between the Federation and the Sol Alliance, and I feel shouldn't be seen as taking away humanity's unique language but rather using it as a sign of the two species relationship - which is one of the only long-lasting between two nations. The other species don't have the same links to the Sol Alliance as Skrell do, and this is a mechanical influence to show that.

[SeniorScore]

Just now, ParadoxSpace said:

Being that Skrell can vocalize in pitches humans cannot hear (the !s and  *s in skrellian) there is no reason they should not be able to vocalize mandarin.

Pitch doesn't equate speaking a language clearly.

[SleepyWolf]

HOWEVER, as there is NO current Human LOREDEV, we will have to wait a while for actually discussing and implementing this - it's up to the next Human Loredev or Mofo1995 who is currently the office temp for the human embassy.

[Arrow768]

I am definitely not a fan of removing yet another unique feature of the human species.
The same argument "It is due to their long standing relationship" could be applied to allow humans to gain access to the Skrell language.

Imho its better to find some new and unique mechanics for the species than to cannibalize the mechanics of other species for that.

[VTCobaltblood]

1 minute ago, Arrow768 said:

The same argument "It is due to their long standing relationship" could be applied to allow humans to gain access to the Skrell language.

Humans physically can't replicate it. They can't even properly hear some of the pitches. 

[Arrow768]

7 minutes ago, VTCobaltblood said:

Humans physically can't replicate it. They can't even properly hear some of the pitches. 

Quite possible, but being unable to properly replicate certain noises does not completely bar your from speaking or understanding a language.
You are able to fill in quite a few things from the context of the sentence that is said.

For example, I am just learning Russian and I am having some difficulties hearing the difference between the different "s" and some of the gutturals, but I am still able to understand some basics of a conversation and convey a few important things.

[VTCobaltblood]

4 minutes ago, Arrow768 said:

For example, I am just learning Russian and I am having some difficulties hearing the difference between the different "s" and some of the gutturals, but I am still able to understand some basics of a conversation and convey a few important things.

Humans are physically able to talk in Russian - see Russians. Humans would be physically unable to speak Skrellian - they can't convey many important pitches. We don't know how important these pitches actually are - they may very well be extremely significant, able to turn most sentences on their heads entirely if not conveyed properly, while I don't know of any such properties Russian language has - you can speak with a thick accent and be easily understood. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by VTCobaltblood

[Arrow768]

1 minute ago, VTCobaltblood said:

Humans are physically able to talk in Russian - see Russians. Humans would be physically unable to speak Skrellian - they can't convey many important pitches. We don't know how important these pitches actually are - they may very well be extremely significant, able to turn most sentences on their heads entirely if not conveyed properly. 

Indeed, but currently I just dont hear the difference between a 3 and a C, they both sound like "s" to me. (And some of the gutturals)
I am still able to understand and make a educated guess what a word or sentence means based on the context.

We already have the ability to allow, if someone knows a specific language, to partially understand another language.
So I´ll reiterate JBs proposal:
Knowledge of the Skrell language gives you a 65% understanding of Sol Common and vice versa.

[VTCobaltblood]

Not all Skrell have had contact with Sol. I don't see why all Skrell would understand Common.

[LordFowl]

I re-iterate my point made on the PR:

"Currently the assumption is that every species gets a unique language. Things like "Well, the Skrell and humans are so buddy buddy, doesn't it make sense that Skrell should be able to speak Sol Common" falls apart entirely when you realize the same justification can be made quite easily for any species to speak Sol Common, or any other non-biologically restricted language. Until the loredevs either decide that every species should be able to speak every language I don't see this as an equitable change.

Additionally, doesn't this just further the idea that Skrell are just humans, but slightly better?"

The same justification for a Skrell knowing Sol Common can be pretty much made for any species to know any language. Languages aren't some dark unknowable art. If we give Skrell Sol Common we're opening a rather hefty can of worms that previously we kept shut with the somewhat arbitrary but fair ruling that each species gets their own unique language.

[Snakebittenn]

1 hour ago, Arrow768 said:

I am definitely not a fan of removing yet another unique feature of the human species.

 

Exactly what unique features were "removed" previously? This 'yet another' doesn't sound right.

Edited December 17, 2018 by ParadoxSpace

[GreenBoi]

1 hour ago, LordFowl said:

I re-iterate my point made on the PR:

"Currently the assumption is that every species gets a unique language. Things like "Well, the Skrell and humans are so buddy buddy, doesn't it make sense that Skrell should be able to speak Sol Common" falls apart entirely when you realize the same justification can be made quite easily for any species to speak Sol Common, or any other non-biologically restricted language. Until the loredevs either decide that every species should be able to speak every language I don't see this as an equitable change.

The same justification for a Skrell knowing Sol Common can be pretty much made for any species to know any language. Languages aren't some dark unknowable art. If we give Skrell Sol Common we're opening a rather hefty can of worms that previously we kept shut with the somewhat arbitrary but fair ruling that each species gets their own unique language.

I'd like to note that most species are just incapable of pronouncing some things in Sol Common hence why they don't bother learning it. It's too abstract for them, they have to talk in it in either a very specific way with exact motions of their mouth at a right angle or just other wierd uncomfortable things. The Skrell, though, would be the prime candidate for actually learning Sol Common as them only having gum would, at most, make a few letters sound off I've tried warbling irl. You can't pronounce V correctly somethings and say B instead. Also, I don't believe that two races knowing one language will cause much issues. The conditions for this are met and the JF have a lot of ties to the SA unlike other races. I don't think this is as problematic as it's said to be. It's like complaining about Americans losing their nationality because non-Americans learned it but those people are Squidfrogs.

[Flamingo]

I like the idea behind the PR lore wise, but I don’t want to see Sol Common be taken from humans, so I’m not supportive. 

 

You could honestly justify a human knowing how to use Skrell language if you really wanted to. Special Cochlear implants for hearing pitches outside the normal range. Voice modulator/synthesizer for speaking said pitches. Eridani cyberpunk fantasy at its finest. Is it cool? Fuck yeah, but I think people would have a problem with losing their private language as well.

 

You could of course build a translator every round with IE, but at least you need to put in work for that. 

[Itanimulli]

Soon the Tup will be omilingual crackshots who can snipe you from three lightyears away by homing in on your brainwaves via telepathy without bluespace while using attack slimes to fend off the Lii'dra in tandem with C'thur warforms crafted from genemodded unathi.
 

[Conspiir]

41 minutes ago, Flamingo said:

You could honestly justify a human knowing how to use Skrell language if you really wanted to. Special Cochlear implants for hearing pitches outside the normal range. Voice modulator/synthesizer for speaking said pitches. Eridani cyberpunk fantasy at its finest. Is it cool? Fuck yeah, but I think people would have a problem with losing their private language as well.

Do you have any idea how cool that idea is? I'm so for that! If a Human cares enough about understanding Skrell language to get a cochlear implant, I--and most Skrell characters--would be honored. It's not something every human would suddenly understand (that's cheap) just as Sol Common wouldn't be something most Skrell would bother with if TCB works so well.

 

You guys are talking about languages like they're property. A language belongs to a species, forget what makes logical sense. A species language is how characters can comfortably bash the aliens around them without them knowing and laugh behind their backs. But what if the alien knows the language? Suddenly you've opened up an entirely new roleplay opportunity. "You were eavesdropping!" "You aren't supposed to know this language!" "How did you learn xxx language?" This happens in real life, too. Think that white guy in the aisle can't understand Spanish? Think again!

 

Language shouldn't be what divides. It should be what brings us together.

[Flamingo]

The example I provided illustrates a very interesting point that I think wasn’t conveyed really well. It’s really really cool, I agree, and I’d like to see stuff like that, but the issue lies in opening that language up as just a “base option”. Imagine if humans could just “pick” one of the 500 tajaran languages or the skrell language. They wouldn’t put effort into WHY they have it, since they can pick it as a base option. 

 

Am I entirely against giving skrell sol common? Not really, considering it does make sense in lore. But it would take one of the only unique mechanics that humans have, and give it to another race that already has this same unique mechanic (their own language). 

 

I think a far more interesting way of doing this would be to have the ability to justify having a language and being given access to it on a character-by-character basis, rather than just throwing it in as another option for any skrell to pick for any reason (I have an extra slot and there’s a lot of humans. Might as well know Sol Common so they can’t talk about me). However, I don’t know how viable that implementation is, and that’s another idea for another thread.