[1 dismissal] Disable changeling

[Scheveningen]

"I don't get how people could get angry at getting instantly stunned in and then getting dragged into a small room where they're silently removed from the game permanently because if someone finds the body the changelings disguise would be useless."

"It's useless anyways because it takes too long to change and everyone wears so much shit changing clothes is a nightmare."

I regret to inform everyone that short of totally removing changeling from the codebase (which itself is probably a terrible idea given the nature of reverting commits and then building new framework upon the old again), the only possible, short-term solution at the moment is to remove changeling from being able to be a played game-mode (and this is up to the head staff to consider because they are the ones with config access). There has been next to zero real development in regards to the changeling game mode and it honestly surprises me that the antagonist type has been left in such a sorry, horribly weak and non-RP-conducive state for such a long time.

Changeling effectively behaves like an unfinished antagonist with all of the claws removed from them. Their method of progressing and getting stronger with their progressive system is extremely demanding of individual player skill and waiting for the proper 'right' situation to be able to kill someone and then absorb them undisturbed while quietly disposing of the body to ensure nobody finds it. If a ling gets identified before they're strong enough to defend themselves, they have to either go into hiding or they're fucked if they try to defend themselves. It's really rare to see lings help other lings as well because there's no "genepoint-sharing" mechanic to motivate this.

The difficulty regarding changeling is that it is not an antagonist that can effectively defend itself without a lot of kills underneath its belt. And when it does have a lot of kills underneath its belt (in the extremely rare occurrence in which it happens), it is still not as lethal as most other antagonists with a lot of tools and equipment to do the job.

The nature of having to permanently attempt to remove other players from the round on purpose essentially counters the purpose of being an antagonist in the first place: to avoid removing players unless it without a doubt drives a better story for the overall round.

Much like communism, changeling works well on paper and in theory. In its actual execution, however, it proves itself a very weak concept and doesn't hold a candle to much stronger elements that exist in the environment. When it becomes too much effort for too little gain just to accomplish things as a changeling, the game mode itself needs addressed at the baseline level. And hopefully overhauled from scratch to better suit the heavy RP nature of this server. Unrestricted gankbots tend to have greater livelihoods on lower RP servers without as much requirement for interaction or any need for roleplay at all. Changelings are predominantly more mechanically motivated than IC motivated (generally, it is not to create a story as a result of their background, but to grow stronger through removing people from the round) which creates its own issues.

Until someone can step up to the plate and rework the formerly beloved genestealing antagonist into something that holds the namesake well and manages to be able to get its claws out and make fun stories for others involved, I don't think it's good for the server to keep the changeling gamemode (and its associated game modes in the mixed GM rotations) with a "1" in the config. It is a mechanically weak antagonist, it is a narratively weak antagonist and it is not a very fun antagonist to play as or against either. Ling has an insane level of difficulty to actually playing it considering the guidelines regarding roleplay and when to gank and when not to gank someone. Not to mention avoiding getting caught and how difficult that is, since getting caught ends a round for a ling with no defensive solutions. 

It shouldn't feel as shitty as it does to grab someone and suck their genes dry and ditch the character's body in maintenance where they won't be found, and it shouldn't feel as shitty as it does to be on the point end of that pike.

I don't think we should permanently remove changeling but I seriously think we should disable it for a time, hopefully to motivate someone who cares about ling enough to step up to the plate and try to fix it.

@Garnascus @Arrow768@Skull132@ShameOnTurtles

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

-1 its a good horror round.

[SeniorScore]

0/10 will stop me from getting the succ.

Seriously though shit's busted, has been for awhile. Removal (even until a rework) would be preferred than the rather encouraged silent takedowns with your GEP proboscis

[kyres1]

Please get rid of it. There is unironically nothing that can be said in defense of the gamemode in its current state that outweighs how awful it is.

[Kaed]

I would do this myself, but unfortunately, I have been informed that this (specifically, removing ling from votes/secret rotation) is something that can only be done on the config file, which only the headmins have access to.

Thus, this will never happen unless you can convince one of them to do it.  And they didn't do it when we held a community vote saying we'd prefer it to be removed for now, so I'm not sure if they will no matter how many threads happen.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Kaed

[sonicgotnuked]

Oh the beloved ling. I have kept it disabled on my antag preferences for so long that I have zero idea what to do when I become it. I succ people of their genes and murder them in a room?

 

I don't think ling needs to be removed, it needs a rework. Perhaps it is something that completely fucks up someones genome to the point they change species (excluding Vaurica, Vox, and lesser types), appearance, and even genders without any memory? I understand cloning a husked body does this to an extent due to the fact I've turned into cats and liggers before. My main argument for disabling ling is it presents itself as The Biological Horror antagonist type that no other can replicate. I find it enjoyable to sometimes suddenly pop off the exam table and freak everyone in the room out, like I did with my most recent ling round. 

 

Ling is not all about combat, it is also about deception, and one little mistake will lead to you being stunned and thrown into something like xenobiology. You want Horror form? I guess you need to suck at LEAST 5 people (depending on how many protohumans you decided to eat before it was considered power gaming). Think about it, if you decide to buy a couple powers to help you out and spend that five points, you will need to remove OVER five people from the round to do such just to get the golden sweet horror form everyone truly loves. What next? Fucking bone spike everyone around you because suddenly you are THE level seven biohazard the captain will be asking to nuke.

 

Ling, has shortfalls in regards to its progression system. You want to try pushing for horror form? Well, you better find out how to RP properly the station feeding you protohumans, hope to dear god there are a few miners who fell down a hole, there is other antags around generating dead bodies, or just gank. The round has a time limit, and it is only possible to invest in a few people to RP with before everyone is bored and calling for CT two hours in. Good luck. 

 

Keep in mind: No matter HOW MUCH RP you are willing to generate, everyone will be salty in the long run because you had to throw their body in a hole or get caught. I have tried so many times to build up the RP, but the more you are willing to invest, the more you will run out of time. At least vampire can succ people of blood and let medical take them to progress. 

 

In the short: Ling needs an active re-work with things being added inside multiple PR's, not just one. I am happy transformation sting was nerfed, I am glad they have horror form, but its progression system needs to be re-worked, mechanics changed, and perhaps shift its progression into something like vampire. Imagine if vampire involved points to spend?! You would have to suck 5x as much blood to unlock all powers. For the easy start: How about we give them stun resistance so at least they are not losing to one officer with a taser and stun baton, seriously.

[SeniorScore]

1 minute ago, sonicgotnuked said:

This Shit

Yeah problem with that is it's not. Only ling PR I'm aware of is just going to make escalating to killing ling that much faster which I really fail to see how that'll make things better. So until those(rework PRs) are done removal is the best option

[Kaed]

Reworks take time and more importantly, interest and effort from people.  You don't drive around in a junker car that breaks down constantly in place of other cars that work better because you want someone to fix it, you put it in the garage until it's fixed, THEN you take it out again to drive around.

[Scheveningen]

Persistence and consistence is largely what I think should be valued here, Kaed. It's a bit defeatist to deflate when "no" is said the first time. Persistent people who argue in good faith are generally the kinds of people that have made Aurora the way it is, either through development or in other methods.

If I wasn't persistent (or annoying, whatever you call it) myself, then I would've essentially admitted defeat anytime my PRs were opposed in the slightest. Not to give myself undue credit or anything, I have no intention of comparing myself to other contributors here. I'm just saying, you notice the small things add up over time especially when I was persistent about pushing the most of them through. The ones that didn't -- I ended up realizing they were bad ideas anyway.

I'm not persistent just to be annoying, though. If this gets declined when I will make a post next month if nothing changes to try and disable changeling again, and again, and again, if nothing changes to ling. Why? Because it's particularly insidious to leave changeling as neglected as it is right now. It's horrible to leave such a gamemode in the state that it is in with no intent to overhaul it to be more fun.

Did you know vampire used to be a whole lot more useless before its rework? It was really bad. I was here long enough to remember how much of a joke of a game mode vampire was. I'm so glad it's as respected, feared and reviled as it is now. It is actually compelling to play and interesting to hear what people have to say about that game mode.

12 minutes ago, sonicgotnuked said:

In the short: Ling needs an active re-work with things being added inside multiple PR's, not just one. I am happy transformation sting was nerfed, I am glad they have horror form, but its progression system needs to be re-worked, mechanics changed, and perhaps shift its progression into something like vampire. Imagine if vampire involved points to spend?! You would have to suck 5x as much blood to unlock all powers. For the easy start: How about we give them stun resistance so at least they are not losing to one officer with a taser and stun baton, seriously.

I was expecting you to comment as I know you liked ling a lot, so I wasn't going to go so far as something as silly as putting up a PR that is only removing hundreds of lines of code to totally neuter the possibility of changeling ever appearing on Aurora again. However, if this continues later down the line I feel like it'll be the only choice.

Much as I'd love to see a re-work myself, there hasn't been a single hint of any kind of changeling rework, and ling as-is is sort of in a really decrepit state where it is non-functional compared to other antagonists.

And we've been around this bend of proposing reworks but the threads died each time. Essentially, this frustrated me, and I came to the realization that Fowl likely once came to when he 'attempted' to remove Skrell. And honestly if this goes on for another 3 months without consideration to the changeling game-mode in a wider scale format than giving changelings stun immunity, then I'll go that route myself to try and emulate in its entirety. I hate to think that it is only anger that motivates this community to make meaningful changes, but all things considered, most people would probably be pissed off at things they don't like anyway, especially if they remain the same and exist for so long in the sorry states that they do.

Ultimately this thread is here for the proposition outlined. Temporary removal, not permanent, but until someone decides to be motivated enough to fix ling and make people enjoy it as much as some enjoy playing vampire.

So I'll say something bold, something that cannot be refuted no matter how hard anyone will try. In its current state, there's no reason to defend the way changeling is right now. If there is no intention to change it into something better, functional and enjoyable, then it should be removed.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Scheveningen

[sonicgotnuked]

I should also put in another one of my opinions. LING IS NOT AN EASY FIX. It will have to involve delicate operation to adjust skills, balance it, and make it better to suit a HRP style. The only way to tell how this works is to have active and multiple rounds of ling involving these new mechanics to tell if it really suits it or not. It is like coding a new gamemode. No one ever does it because it'll be a pain in the ass regarding how people interact with ling. My fear is: We remove it, we will not have something like ling for a very VERY long period of time. This is why I gave the idea of multiple PR's over a period of time to activly adjust and tweak it into something a lot better then "SUCC IN MAINT, KILL"

 

In the short run: I like lings IDEA, not its current state of affairs. 

[Scheveningen]

And that's fine! But I'm saying we've been at this junction of an idea phase before. We deliberated for days and made a lot of posts and pages about how ling could be better before. Devs had better things to do at the time. The discussion died and then ling remained still relatively shit despite being given arm blades and shields.

And, clearly, if 'rework ling to be better', one of the most SS13-identifiable game modes in the game's history, isn't on developer agenda, why do we even have this broken mess of a game mode around still? I feel like if we just keep hoping for this magical unicorn of a contributor to come around that wants to put effort into ling to make it better while not mentioning that something needs to be done about ling, we're really just setting people up who try to play ling up for failure and only assisting them in wasting their time and effort.

The idea phase can start over again when someone actually is assigned to rework ling. Allow people the chance to play real game modes in the meantime to enjoy ourselves in absence of ling for a bit. 

Edited December 29, 2018 by Scheveningen

[Diona Gestalt (654)]

Can the ling off rotation, testmerge ling back when https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/5213 and such PR's are (if) finished, untill gamemode starts looking good?

Edited December 29, 2018 by Diona Gestalt (654)

[sonicgotnuked]

10 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

The idea phase can start over again when someone actually is assigned to rework ling. Allow people the chance to play real game modes in the meantime to enjoy ourselves in absence of ling for a bit. 

I agree with assigning someone to a ling rework. It needs to be done to be honest. My point of view (I'm not a developer so it could be mute) is that re-working ling requires actual progression and testing with the server that disabling will not provide. I want to see a pinned thread full of discussion that this magical assigned person watches over. This is something that will be a lot of work. 

 

When (if) this person is given the power over ling, perhaps it should be their decision to remove ling during a re-work.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Having one game mode that does not follow the heated meta of keeping all characters alive for as long as possible is fine. There is a dog whistle here about dialogue being the only proper form of rp.

 

The ling doedoes generate rp. You're tricked by an alien and killed. Youre part of a story.

 

I could see giving ling victims a 5 or 10 min respawn timer since a good ling should shift into someone else by then so it could be tricky to avoid meta that would exist in 20 mins anyway

[Kaed]

 Potentially no longer needed, due to my recent PR, which offers a solution.

[SeniorScore]

It's not being tricked by an alien though, it's being stung silent and dragged into a corner to never be found again.

Very good RP I've changed my opinion

[ShameOnTurtles]

As has been said in the past there is virtually no chance of a gamemode/antagonist being removed 'until it is reworked' as if it is removed, a rework is extremely unlikely to actually happen. It's anecdotal, but I've seen great rounds as changeling and terrible rounds. It's like any other mode in that it can be done very well and sometimes isn't. I do not believe it is terrible at it's core.

Voting for dismissal.

 

[Garnascus]

 

 

I hear what you're saying but i am afraid the answer is no. We feel the mode has something to offer to warrant keeping it. Removing or disabling the mode is effectively a death sentence. Nobody works on features that are not enabled. 

[SeniorScore]

..what work is being done on it currently though?

[DaTimeSmog]

19 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

Content

It provides no enjoyment when the antag is completely forced to kill in order to progress the round, its not even enjoyable for the changeling itself as a majority of the abilities are completely and utterly useless and the ultimate end goal seems to be hilariously buggy horror form which can be table stunned and the sorts,

[GreenBoi]

23 minutes ago, Garnascus said:

 

 

I hear what you're saying but i am afraid the answer is no. We feel the mode has something to offer to warrant keeping it. Removing or disabling the mode is effectively a death sentence. Nobody works on features that are not enabled. 

I understand the fear of disabling Changeling as people mainly vote for Secret, assuming most, if not all, other gamemodes on the vote menu to be IN Secret. Casting it out of rotation is quite literally a death sentence to the gamemode as rarely do people vote a non-secret gamemode that isn't Extended, Crossfire, or Heist (seriously, when the fuck do people vote anything OTHER than this? Wizard is voted once in a goddamn blue moon). But if it's gonna stay, it has to be reworked like what Sonic says.

 

I think Changeling can actually be very fun if done right which nearly never happens. I always wanted to absorb somebody, steal their thing and gradually slip back into work, acting stranger. (Think like, Amaya Stone being nice and laughing) and doing general stuff that'll strike people off since that character would never act like that. You also get to do insanely cool "I'm an alien who can control 100% of my body and cells" stuff like "Chan Lin shuts his right eye, you hear the sound of blood gushing as a strange silhouette appears at the back of the head, probing around before returning as Lin opens the eye again" (of course, it'd be better with actual mechanics, but that'd only make sense if we had vision cones), but for people to start thinking and doing this, Changeling needs a rework to allow it to do so.

 

7 hours ago, ShameOnTurtles said:

As has been said in the past there is virtually no chance of a gamemode/antagonist being removed 'until it is reworked' as if it is removed, a rework is extremely unlikely to actually happen. It's anecdotal, but I've seen great rounds as changeling and terrible rounds. It's like any other mode in that it can be done very well and sometimes isn't. I do not believe it is terrible at it's core.

Voting for dismissal.

 

Reworks don't mean death, reworks mean freedom. How many times do you see a round where people say "Oh, that was a neat ling round" or "that was decent I guess"? Usually it's "Yet another reason why Ling needs a GIGANTIC OVERHAUL", "remove ling when??", (rarely) "cant we just port polarisling?", and "why tf do people have ling enabled??"

 

If Changeling stays the same, this thread will keep popping up again. And when ideas like these persist, it's usually a horrible sign for something. Imagine if Paralysis Pen knocked people out for 20 minutes and gave them 50 genetic damage and could be used TWICE for whatever reason and people keep saying things like "who the FUCK buffed paral pen? Its basically a free kill now wtf" along with "paral pen more like unbalanced ganking pen" but each time the issue was brought the light, it was shot down with "Reworking it removes the purpose we made the change to it. It offers a lot of chances for antags to rp now, people just need to be less salty"

[ShameOnTurtles]

1 minute ago, GreenBoi said:

Reworks don't mean death, reworks mean freedom. How many times do you see a round where people say "Oh, that was a neat ling round" or "that was decent I guess"? Usually it's "Yet another reason why Ling needs a GIGANTIC OVERHAUL", "remove ling when??", (rarely) "cant we just port polarisling?", and "why tf do people have ling enabled??"

I'm not opposed to a rework of ling, but this thread is about removing it [until reworked] and I am not in support of that for reasons I have already stated.

[Scheveningen]

Disabled from being in the secret rotation, not outright removed, that's what I want. It's not really fair for people who play secret that want to play actually functional antagonist types like wizard or vampire, to be forced to play ling. I've seen 1/3rd of lings in every round actually cryo instead of playing ling.

It'd essentially be removed from gameplay (short of actually voting changeling in but who actually does that) but admins can spawn them in if they like.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Scheveningen

[GreenBoi]

22 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

Disabled from being in the secret rotation, not outright removed, that's what I want. It's not really fair for people who play secret that want to play actually functional antagonist types like wizard or vampire, to be forced to play ling. I've seen 1/3rd of lings in every round actually cryo instead of playing ling.

But that's the problem. As people have already been vocal about hating the current ling and wanting a rework, removing it from the most voted roundtype really will be it's killer. 

 

22 minutes ago, Scheveningen said:

It'd essentially be removed from gameplay (short of actually voting changeling in but who actually does that) but admins can spawn them in if they like.

As no one votes Ling standalone and consciously often, who the hell would once it's removed from Secret? I've seen what happens when admins remove gamemodes from Secret, it outright murders it for the time it's disabled. I was on Bay a couple months ago when they disabled Changeling, Wizard, and removed Ninja. While it didn't seem like much at first, combined with the given gamemode rates. It was very fucking noticeable; I called that era the "Traitor Marathon" because of how it'd basically only be Mercenary, Raider, and Traitor (sure, we had Cult and Deity, but those were so rare, they were MIRACLES to see) half the time which of themselves can all be linked back to as just Traitor, but with X. If it's removed, it's gonna be gone for a while until there's a rework and it's forced back in...if we're lucky.

Edited December 30, 2018 by GreenBoi
Mentioned Cult and Deity from Bay12 not to mislead

[Scheveningen]

I understand what you mean, but I'm not of the same mind as the bay developers to disable things just because I don't like them. I want to disable it because it is fundamentally broken as-is and there's a major power and purpose disparity when you compare it to other antagonists. Changeling has no real teeth to defend itself with unless you somehow manage to get 5 kills without being caught.

And when you do get caught, not if, you will be caught behaving like a changeling eventually and it is not exactly subtle; you'll be swarmed by the rest of the crew and either permanently imprisoned in an isolation cell/xenobiology for the rest of the round or the crew's going to go for your head. If you actually manage to get death sting it's more likely you were on lowpop, and people who play lowpop changeling like they're on high pop are the kinds of players nobody likes talking about.

Ling is not often played to start with (exactly 10 changeling rounds in the past month according to game status, not including mid-round crashes), so with its playtime at the moment, it will not feel as if it it will be sorely missed if it is disabled.

Current ling is already dead. Those that still support it are essentially keeping it on life support. 
Lemme provide you a situation, too, after I ask the question "When is it too much".
If Kaed's implementation gets rejected because it "isn't good enough", or it does get implemented but doesn't fix anything about changeling, what are we supposed to do about it?
Do we wait yet another few months for the next thread arrive to remove it and repeat this dance of arguing and debating for and against the merits of changeling?

I wouldn't care if vampire were the best RP game mode and it had facets to it that made playing as it and against it literally unplayable. If it was broken and nobody wanted to fix it, I'd want it disabled too. I don't care what RP each antag offers you because I'm not arguing for it or against it. The gameplay loop for changeling is not functional in its current state. It has been broken for an incredible amount of time and it takes this thread just to motivate only one person to try and fix it?

Really? Come on.

We need to stop expecting a magical unicorn to come along to solve all our problems while we do nothing for the benefit of the changeling game mode.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Scheveningen