The [small-ish] Robotics Rework

[kyres1]

Mechs are in a bad state. There is nothing beyond being horrifyingly robust that mechs can actually field to a round as it stands. Shockingly enough there’s fixes to this that don’t include entire reworks! Let’s go through some simple things.

Give robotics a protolathe and extra steel/glass.

There’s no reason they don’t have one. They are still excessively reliant on R&D, requiring their research for any upgrades or levels. This just gives them something to do in that they can upgrade their machines themselves, and provide themselves with minor things like ICPs once scientists do their job. This also gives roboticist antagonists more room to work with since they can make the necessary components for combat mechs without getting shut down immediately in the brief transaction between them and R&D.

Ripleys need accelerators and slight speed adjustments.

Currently, APLUs are very bad for what their usual purpose is ; mining. They’re slow, and their drills are not fast enough to warrant not just getting a RIG in six minutes and an accelerator with absurd power that clears entire screens at a time. Two things are necessary: making them slightly faster, and giving them a bonkers accelerator to make up for their REALLY slow speed.

Odysseus’ desperately need maneuvering jets while rescue RIGs lose their actuators. Also remove the Odysseus’ ability to use passenger compartments.

There is no reason to make an Odysseus! The rescue RIG is better in every conceivable way. With the leg actuators readily available as it’s always being worn, no matter what, just wearing the RIG is always better than climbing into the mech. More importantly, the RIG has two means of traversing Z-levels or holes entirely, making them able to actually traverse the asteroid in its entirety. For the most part, Odysseus mechs can hardly leave a twenty-tile radius from any given airlock before hitting a dead end with either rock or open spaces. Simple solution is removing the rescue RIG’s actuators and giving the Odysseus maneuvering jets. There’s not really any complexity to this. On top of that, their ability to hold passenger compartments makes them effectively easy-use clown cars that can carry 5 people that are basically immune to any external damage.

Firefighters need flamethrowers for blobs. That’s… all they need, and it’d make them great for engineering.

There’s otherwise very little reason to make firefighters. The presence of fire on station has massively diminished in recent times. Ironically, giving them flamethrowers will give them more reason to exist from their original purpose.

The final part of the suggestion is the addition of a personal/duo transport mech to go in fabricators.

This could fill in the gap of personal safe-ish transport that making the Odysseus more specialized would create. I’ve sprited everything necessary (I think) to put this in the fabricators. The most reasonable way to implement this would be giving it less health than any other mech, slightly slower than Odysseus speed, and leaping/landing actuators like hardsuits receive. It would be able to fit any utility module except for clamps and drills, but only have one or two spaces for modules. This could be a cheap easy-to-make mech that gives roboticists something to make and specialize for almost any department’s use, be it for transportation or utility.

Depending on how hard it is to add new mechs to the fabricators I would totally sprite new ones so long as they make sense and hold a purpose like the one mentioned here.

The sprites are seen above. Minor adjustments and color changes can be done pretty easily but reworking the entire sprite's front/back shape would be a pain in the butt. This was the only color I could pick that felt utilitarian, and could be seen operating under something like security or engineering at the same time. Feedback on them in progress was provided by the general discord.

Combat mechs are fine as-is. They’re scary robust and both fill in their respective roles in security, being speed and resilience.

Let's not have RIGs continue to phase out robotics' biggest thing by making their biggest thing useful compared to the cost. Mechs aren't especially difficult to make, but often roboticists are stuck with nothing to make or do to help others. It's not tedious busywork like repeating R&D every round, instead consider it more options for a relatively limited role. Also maybe Smog will finally enjoy it. Credit to them, Schev and Ziy for some of the ideas mentioned.

Also remove cable layers - smog

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by kyres1

[ben10083]

+1 to all of it

 

Although please provide detail for the transport mech, will it require advanced materials? What tech level will their circuits be? How many can it fit?

Also I recommend increasing the module limit for them to 3 or 4, 1-2 is just too little even if you specialize. Otherwise, this seems like a great service mech.

[kyres1]

6 minutes ago, ben10083 said:

+1 to all of it

 

Although please provide detail for the transport mech, will it require advanced materials? What tech level will their circuits be? How many can it fit?

Also I recommend increasing the module limit for them to 3 or 4, 1-2 is just too little even if you specialize. Otherwise, this seems like a great service mech.

The sprite itself is made for two circuits, which like the Odysseus and Ripley could be peripherals and central control boards. These can be at higher tech levels than normal to prevent what is effectively roundstart spam of these, and it could consist of more plasteel than usual. However, there's not much that *can* be done about spam of mechs - as I've demonstrated before, making 12 Durands is pretty easy even with one miner. The situations these are used in should be moderated enough already to crack down on abuse, however, just like combat mechs. Exact tech levels are pretty unnecessary as well, since maximizing levels can be done with in-lab equipment nowadays and a sheet of every material that'll fit in a lathe.

[zyymurgy]

Am I allowed to +1 if I gave feedback that got included?

I like the idea a lot of course. My thinking for the transport mech was to work as a partner to slower mechs, with the ability to jump in and out of danger, but would get wrecked in few hits if the pilot tried anything foolish.

I very much like making the light transport mech be versatile with the ability to go with any department. There's a definite need for a light mech that's faster but fragile, to complement the heavy mechs that wreck shit with regularity, and with versatility for many departments, that's is the best logical extension of the concept of my suggestions.

The only other comment my gameplay experience qualifies me to make is that I think it's hilarious that firefighters might get flamethrowers, that's 10/10.

[LordFowl]

Mechs will never be useful while RIGs exist in their current state. They’re obsolete.

[kyres1]

2 hours ago, LordFowl said:

Mechs will never be useful while RIGs exist in their current state. They’re obsolete.

Why?

[DaTimeSmog]

1 hour ago, kyres1 said:

Why?

Fowls arguement is grounded that almost everything a mech can do can also be done by an exosuit with the added bonus of having hands.

[kyres1]

Just now, DaTimeSmog said:

Fowls arguement is grounded that almost everything a mech can do can also be done by an exosuit with the added bonus of having hands.

But that's false. Mechs are much more resilient, even in their weakest forms. One hundred percent of incoming damage is absorbed by the mech save for AMRs which you'll rarely see if ever in normal circumstances. RIGs can't carry ten crates, outrun M'sai in a sprint, or delete reinforced walls. They can't plow down blast doors, and ironically they have much less efficient modules in comparison. The RCD on RIGs uses nearly a quarter of your RIG's power when used, whereas an RCD from a mech takes hardly a tenth. All of that disregards the robustness of mechs in combat as well.

[CrimsonAerospace]

For the majority of this rework, I'm a big fan. I've always loved the idea of mechs in SS13, even if I, sadly, rarely see them roaming the halls anymore. Anything that can bring mechs into the light again, I'm a fan of.

My only qualm goes hand-in-hand with what Fowl said. I don't believe Mechs are completely obsolete, they do have their place as Kyres argued, but the newest mech being introduced, the scout, 'Hermes', as I've seen it called in the files, is going to be weaker than a standard mech. But how weak is weaker? Like, it can be defeated by a toolbox or a few laser blasts, weak? 

Otherwise giant +1 for me, this is awesome.

Edit; As a side note I'd kill to see a slightly stronger variant of the Hermes, like a light scout suit added to the ERT/TCFL/Merc/Raider base.

Edited January 3, 2019 by CrimsonAerospace

[kyres1]

2 minutes ago, CrimsonAerospace said:

For the majority of this rework, I'm a big fan. I've always loved the idea of mechs in SS13, even if I, sadly, rarely see them roaming the halls anymore. Anything that can bring mechs into the light again, I'm a fan of.

My only qualm goes hand-in-hand with what Fowl said. I don't believe Mechs are completely obsolete, they do have their place as Kyres argued, but the newest mech being introduced, the scout, 'Hermes', as I've seen it called in the files, is going to be weaker than a standard mech. But how weak is weaker? Like, it can be defeated by a toolbox or a few laser blasts, weak? 

Otherwise giant +1 for me, this is awesome.

Up to whoever takes it, honestly. If it were up to me, it'd be slightly weaker than an Odysseus, which is slightly weaker than a Ripley. Mechs have armor that deflects most small objects based off of a damage threshold from my experience. Some things like toolboxes go over this deflection threshold, and thus are wonderful at robusting puny durands. There's not much to do in that regard as all mechs are vulnerable to it.

[driecg36]

+1 from me, robotics needs some love.

I very much like the idea for a small, all-purpose/transport mech, though I personally would like if it could have a clamp, but just a vastly reduced carry capacity (think 2 spots instead of 10).

While I like RIGs and wish roboticists could have more to do with them (as with implants and prosthetics), I feel as if though mechs are anything but obsolete compared to rigs. Someone in a RIG with standard weaponry is not going to beat someone in a Gygax with standard weaponry. Someone in a medical RIG can't have 2 sleepers or more sleepers on their person. The APLU is hilariously underpowered, however, compared to the other tools miners can get from RnD or just their vendor.

This is a good first step to improving robotics.

[Itanimulli]

20 hours ago, driecg36 said:

+1 from me, robotics needs some love.

I very much like the idea for a small, all-purpose/transport mech, though I personally would like if it could have a clamp, but just a vastly reduced carry capacity (think 2 spots instead of 10).

While I like RIGs and wish roboticists could have more to do with them (as with implants and prosthetics), I feel as if though mechs are anything but obsolete compared to rigs. Someone in a RIG with standard weaponry is not going to beat someone in a Gygax with standard weaponry. Someone in a medical RIG can't have 2 sleepers or more sleepers on their person. The APLU is hilariously underpowered, however, compared to the other tools miners can get from RnD or just their vendor.

This is a good first step to improving robotics.

I'm unsure if you've seen how most mech fights pan out, but that Gygax is going to get absolutely destroyed. Esspecially if an ion is on the feild, wich at this point feels like standard weaponry despite there only being one on the feild at any given time. Just the act of moving while the gygax speed boost is active literally brings the mech closer to death.

 

I have seen mechs beat to death by maglights.

[driecg36]

9 hours ago, Itanimulli said:

I'm unsure if you've seen how most mech fights pan out, but that Gygax is going to get absolutely destroyed. Esspecially if an ion is on the feild, wich at this point feels like standard weaponry despite there only being one on the feild at any given time. Just the act of moving while the gygax speed boost is active literally brings the mech closer to death.

 

I have seen mechs beat to death by maglights.

We are assuming no Ions, and two individuals of equal skill, which should remove the maglight example from the equation.

The mech has higher health. Every hit the hardsuited individual takes weakens them and brings them closer to death, while the mech protect it's pilot.

RIGs are much more mobile, I'll give you that.

 

[Itanimulli]

16 hours ago, driecg36 said:

We are assuming no Ions, and two individuals of equal skill, which should remove the maglight example from the equation.

The mech has higher health. Every hit the hardsuited individual takes weakens them and brings them closer to death, while the mech protect it's pilot.

RIGs are much more mobile, I'll give you that.

 

Again, however, 9/10, the hardsuited individual wins.

[driecg36]

4 hours ago, Itanimulli said:

Again, however, 9/10, the hardsuited individual wins.

Why? The extra mobility isn't enough to make up for the significant durability on paper.

[Itanimulli]

1 hour ago, driecg36 said:

Why? The extra mobility isn't enough to make up for the significant durability on paper.

This is ss13. Mobility is nearly everything. If durability on paper were the key to success, G2s would be horribly overpowered.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Itanimulli

[DaTimeSmog]

1 hour ago, Itanimulli said:

This is ss13. Mobility is nearly everything. If durability on paper were the key to success, G2s would be horribly overpowered.

The problem about the RIG is that will suffer from a slow down both due to the armor itself and due to the injuries/pain over time while the exosuit will have a constant speed. You cant argue with mobility in favor of the RIG, while yes it has more options for traveling up and down Z levels, mostly by mentioning the jetpack it will still fall short when it comes to combat mobility. Also going meele against anyone who is aware of the mechs meele attack is beyond stupid, as it does a decent amount of damage combined with a knockback.

Edited January 6, 2019 by DaTimeSmog

[driecg36]

I think another good direction to take mechs in would be to make the more akin to support tools that make everyone more efficient, so they can have their weaknesses rounded out through cooperation.

Think a mech being a portable ore crate/scooper for miners, a mech having portable rechargers for sec, an odysseus that can deploy a surgery table/tools and retract them, a firefighter that can carry welding fuel and metal, etc.

[AmoryBlaine]

I like the ideas brought forward. I hope they're added.

@driecg36 Yeah, honestly that'd be great too. It seems like the only time we currently get to see mechs is when robotics is bored, or there's a code red situation where Sec and Medical could use one. If they had some legit normal uses, we might seem them more than on crazy hectic rounds.

[Huenererschrecker]

1 hour ago, driecg36 said:

Think a mech being a portable ore crate/scooper for miners

Fairly sure that APLU with a drill and stored orebox already do that. 

[driecg36]

On 06/01/2019 at 05:52, Huenererschrecker said:

Fairly sure that APLU with a drill and stored orebox already do that. 

Maybe an automatic smeltery, or something that increases mineral yield, then.

[Lady Fowl]

Gonna work on a PR for this

[DaTimeSmog]

Something that I mentioned in the discord was the addition of a physical ammo storage inside combat mechs to help leviate the problems regarding kinetic weapons
Right now a majority of kinetic weapons do a respectable amount of damage with no drawbacks, possessing low delays and an infinite amount of bullets with a low energy cost.

One way to fix this would be adding mech specific ammo to the exosuit fabricator, increase the magazine size on some of the low capacity weapons such as the Gyrojet Gun ( Which to Kyres apparently only has 3 shots before needing to reload ), lower the magazine size of guns which have a large amount of ammo ( The MG being the prime example ) and the ability to store another magazine as reserve inside the mech. This would help help bring down the stength of kinetic weapons and give them a stronger weakness aside from "Cant shoot through window".

[Lady Fowl]

https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/5959

[PoZe]

Implementing most of it in https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/6089

 

I do not want to take away RIG's actuators.