Snakebittenn Posted February 21, 2019 Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) While the idea has been brought up here and there, it has never really gained traction or a proper thread. Here is the concept. Current cloning is basically a microwave. You stick the cold body in, wait a few minutes, a fully-formed body comes out. Resleeving is a little different. The cloning pod is somewhat the same. It is able to produce either a generic braindead clone, or, hopefully, a clone that has the appearance of a scan. In character setup there would be a new option, 'has neural lace.' You can toggle this on or off. Without a neural lace, you cannot be cloned unless you are in one of the backup slots in the cloner. The neural lace is a device in your head that saves a backup of your brain. When you die, it can be taken out and put into a braindead clone, or, it can be put into someone that already has a lace and it has a 50% chance to overwrite their lace with your consciousness until it's rrripped out. I suppose Research could be able to print laces. This would make cloning slightly more complex than 'hit 3 buttons and you are winrar' and make it a little more involved. As well as being able, as an antag, to deny people cloning without having to decapitate them. Edited February 23, 2019 by LordFowl
Snakebittenn Posted February 21, 2019 Author Posted February 21, 2019 Doublepost: Insertion would probably be done with surgery, but I guess there could be machines to do it instead.
Zundy Posted February 21, 2019 Posted February 21, 2019 43 minutes ago, ParadoxSpace said: Doublepost: Insertion would probably be done with surgery, but I guess there could be machines to do it instead. ehehehehehe
VTCobaltblood Posted February 21, 2019 Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) What I don't like about this, and what I've already said in your DMs, Paradox, is how this "inverts" the weight DNC has. Currently, lore-wise, you are getting cloned by default - you make the decision to not be cloned for personal reasons, and it's a great way to show character, and some good hijinks can be done with it like unlawful cloning. With resleeving, however, you are not getting cloned by default - explanations for not becoming cloned can be as simple as "I just kept delaying getting a lace" and laces have no disadvantages or anything really interesting to discuss. While resleeving is more interesting mechanically, roleplay-wise, it feels more hollow. Edited February 21, 2019 by VTCobaltblood
Kaed Posted February 21, 2019 Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, VTCobaltblood said: What I don't like about this, and what I've already said in your DMs, Paradox, is how this "inverts" the weight DNC has. Currently, lore-wise, you are getting cloned by default - you make the decision to not be cloned for personal reasons, and it's a great way to show character, and some good hijinks can be done with it like unlawful cloning. With resleeving, however, you are not getting cloned by default - explanations for not becoming cloned can be as simple as "I just kept delaying getting a lace" and laces have no disadvantages or anything really interesting to discuss. While resleeving is more interesting mechanically, roleplay-wise, it feels more hollow. I am having a hard time expressing how I feel about this statement in terms that aren't aggressive and mean, but I think it's really dumb that you think the non-point of being automatically cloned unless you filled out some arbitrary and imaginary paperwork actually makes for good stories. Most people who ask to not be cloned are generally not going to re-inhabit their body because they don't want to be cloned, and doctors will almost always check, and in the 3 years I have been playing on this server, I have never once seen someone be illegally cloned successfully. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but wanting to keep that thematic in the hopes it happens is a pointlessly conservative mindset. Personally, I'd much rather we have it set up so you CAN'T clone someone unless they opted into it by selecting that they have a neural lace. That way there isn't a whole nonsense about having to check someone's badly written and formatted records to see if they are DNC. Edited February 21, 2019 by Kaed
VTCobaltblood Posted February 21, 2019 Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Kaed said: I have never once seen someone be illegally cloned successfully. I have been illegally cloned. Edited February 21, 2019 by VTCobaltblood
Kaed Posted February 21, 2019 Posted February 21, 2019 That's great, continue reading to the next sentence on that post.
VTCobaltblood Posted February 21, 2019 Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) If you insist. 6 minutes ago, Kaed said: Most people who ask to not be cloned are generally not going to re-inhabit their body because they don't want to be cloned, and doctors will almost always check, and in the 3 years I have been playing on this server, I have never once seen someone be illegally cloned successfully. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but wanting to keep that thematic in the hopes it happens is a pointlessly conservative mindset. I have re-inhabited my body because cloning my character illegally was going to be interesting from an RP standpoint. It's not hopes that it happens, it does happen, and I'd like it to continue to happen. I also appreciate you calling my opinion dumb because it's something you've never seen happen. Edited February 21, 2019 by VTCobaltblood
Kaed Posted February 21, 2019 Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) Cool. I'm sure you had interesting roleplay there, in that situation where you were allowed to essentially become a minor antagonist in the round because someone cloned you illegally and you could scream about your rights being infringed and maybe weep about how you aren't a real person anymore and have no soul depending on your character's motivation for opting to not be cloned. I'm sure you would have been well in your rights to behave like an aggressive lunatic or depressive shell, depending on your flavor of choice. However, I don't think cloning should exist as bait for self-victimization roleplay (because it is impossible for you to be cloned without your OOC consent) and a potential to become a self-designated (minor) round antagonist. The purpose of cloning should be to allow people to participate in the round again as the person they joined to play, in the role they were supposed to be in. Edited February 21, 2019 by Kaed
Scheveningen Posted February 21, 2019 Posted February 21, 2019 4 hours ago, ParadoxSpace said: This would make cloning slightly more complex than 'hit 3 buttons and you are winrar' and make it a little more involved. As well as being able, as an antag, to deny people cloning without having to decapitate them. Is cloning not already in a bad enough state that it's hardly used anymore? Why not just remove it instead of implementing more inverse powercreep?
Resilynn Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 Take away traumas and give me this instead. Because I will literally take anything else above trauma. We should consider how this could work in the lore. We live in a corporate hellscape, right? Maybe cloning machines could work almost like vending machines in that you insert an ID as well and the machine charges you- 500 for a fresh and unremarkable largely prosthetic body, 1,000 for a new grown body, 2,000 for a genetic copy of you. (Imagine finally using the medical budget for this as the company is willing to set aside enough for a few clones a shift). Maybe poor people sometimes just end up being neural laces living off a host, a close friend or family member, etc. Maybe neural laces can be temporarily attached to shitty androids, meaning robotics could bring people back in a pinch. Even if these don’t end up being mechanical changes, I’m delighted by the idea of what this could add to the game lorewise alone. Let’s keep discussing it as an option, I think it’s promising.
LordFowl Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 Speaking of traumas, it seems reasonable to me that brain trauma would also damage the neural lace, ie roboticists will also be necessary alongside psychologists/chemists in repairing brain traumas, provided that the subject wants to be cloned in the near future.
Snakebittenn Posted February 22, 2019 Author Posted February 22, 2019 The neural lace is a separate organ.
LordFowl Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 Yes, but obviously it is constantly updated ie it is damaged when the brain is also damaged because elsewise when you get cloned via neural lace your memories are wiped for the entire round + foreseeable past.
Arrow768 Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 Seems like someone has taken inspiration from altered carbon. I don't believe that this will add much difficulty to cloning as the only thing that you have to do in addition to the process is remove the lance and plug it into the fresh clone. In fact, this would even allow medical to prepare clones so people could quickly receive a new body if they die and due to the concept of the neural lance, that could be any body they have laying around. A proper body can be supplied at any later date/time. I have to vote for dismissal due to a few issues: It does not add any difficulty to cloning, even has the possibility to make it easier (as explained above) The goal seems to be to allow Antags to more easily remove people from the round (which is not something that I agree with, as this should take some effort) It causes a whole slew of regulation issues (Is it really murder if you kill the sleeve and do not destroy the lance?) I do not believe we are ready for such a drastic step into trans-humanism (yet).
Kaed Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Arrow768 said: It causes a whole slew of regulation issues (Is it really murder if you kill the sleeve and do not destroy the lance?) I do not believe we are ready for such a drastic step into trans-humanism (yet). Organic damage. Anyway I don't understand why people keep saying that the server is not ready for transhumanism. You just present the scenario (people can resleeve) and people play in it. We already have robotic unathi as a species despite the fact that that was the last species I would have possibly pick to be transhuman Jesus Christ I'm still annoyed about that moving on. It's legitimately not that difficult, unless the real concern is that you don't know how to do lore for it and you're just sort of hiding behind the excuse that the players can't handle the change. Edited February 22, 2019 by Kaed
Arrow768 Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 The thing is, at the moment we do not have any form of transhumanism in the game. The only species that has some sort of augmentability is the new unathi subspecies (and that isnt playable at the moment) I am definitely not saying that what has been suggested here should never be a thing but there should be a bit more development into that are than just "yeah, here you go. have what´s basically immortality". Before we go into the territory of immortality and the issues that come with it, we should look into "lighter" themes of trans-humanism.
Carver Posted February 22, 2019 Posted February 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Arrow768 said: It causes a whole slew of regulation issues (Is it really murder if you kill the sleeve and do not destroy the lance?) The exact same argument can be currently presented with cloning, and the exact same answer is to be had: It's not the same person no matter how many things you copy+paste over. This is also why it's not functional immortality either. Is it murder? Yes. Is it immortality? No more so than cloning could have already been considered as such. As for the suggestion, entirely neutral. I play DNCs exclusively so this doesn't matter worth a shit to me.
Snakebittenn Posted February 23, 2019 Author Posted February 23, 2019 20 hours ago, Arrow768 said: The thing is, at the moment we do not have any form of transhumanism in the game. The only species that has some sort of augmentability is the new unathi subspecies (and that isnt playable at the moment) I am definitely not saying that what has been suggested here should never be a thing but there should be a bit more development into that are than just "yeah, here you go. have what´s basically immortality". Before we go into the territory of immortality and the issues that come with it, we should look into "lighter" themes of trans-humanism. We.. have tho. We've had cyberlimbs. We've had cyber-organs. We've had genetic augmentation in Dominia. We have the entirety of Eridani. What's the holdup?
Resilynn Posted February 23, 2019 Posted February 23, 2019 Why are developers against making cloning easier? If you want cloning to be rare, just delete in game cloning. Or make it a science thing. I literally get bitched at for not cloning daily because it takes up to 30 minutes of care and no one has that time on red alert. I’ve even seen some wonderful people on this thread spread this rumor that I pretend to not know how to clone to get out of it. I get harassed over LOOC and, about weekly, over discord and regularly have to ahelp to get ghosts to shut up. And I’m one of the medical players who DOES consistently do it as long as we have the time. Please. I prefer the neural lace thing because it DOES seem more time efficient. And like that it’d make for neat rp, neat antaggery, etc.
DronzTheWolf Posted February 23, 2019 Posted February 23, 2019 I remember neural laces from Bay. Someone said it makes it easier to take someone out of the round when in reality it's the exact opposite. You can get headgibbed and have the lace survive, and as long as you have a backup or a willing body donor if you've got that in your records, you're good to be cloned. Unless the gimmick is collecting laces, that is. In which case it's a gamble to see who gets cloned in what body.
LordFowl Posted February 23, 2019 Posted February 23, 2019 Voting for dismissal. I don’t really see how this makes “cloning more complex”. Cloning still requires the exact same number of steps, you just need a sleeve to bd intact now instead of a brain. Indeed, I’m inclined to think it makes cloning even easier as all you need now is a single organ from the deceased, and you can keep bodies in reserve.
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