Separate the Visitor role from Assistant role

[Carver]

For one reason, namely; characters hired under different corporations/factions via the occupation menu are locked from the assistant role, this makes sense. But it has the negative effect of preventing said characters from being able to come to the station as visitors. Separating the roles would solve this.

As it stands, Visitors are already treated separately from Assistants under Station Directive 9:

Quote

Visitors to the station are not contracted to work or otherwise assume the role of any of the employed crew. Even if they work for NanoTrasen, promotion of visitors to station ranks, except in the most dire of circumstances, will be regarded as neglect of duty and/or exceeding official powers. During these circumstances, volunteers will not be compensated in any fashion by NanoTrasen and will not be insured against any injuries they sustain. Without exception, visitors are not permitted to be promoted to command ranks.

They are not treated as active employees, compared with assistants.

[Pratepresidenten]

Take visitors off the crew manifest aswell, they're not crew, they're visitors.

[Carver]

12 minutes ago, Pratepresidenten said:

Take visitors off the crew manifest aswell, they're not crew, they're visitors.

Alternatively I'd file them under a separate section of the manifest, offering minimum OOC clarity for those who want to see the current manifest from the lobby or discord.

Addendum to my thoughts; They'd also have be on manifest anyways, if only for the sake of records. Medical (and Security) records are paramount, employee or otherwise. By having records you're added to the manifest, fortunately or unfortunately.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Carver

[Melting]

Ripping visitors from manifest seems like a very bad idea because of records, as mentioned above. What happens if some Visitor with a DNC gets ended and then recloned, since Medical had no way of checking?

 

Core idea seems smart. Assistants assist and visitors visit, and these two occupations are not remotely linked; in fact, Visitors are expressly prohibited from assisting outside of dire situations. This hyper-incongruity is unlike any other alt title/job relationship. All other alt-title sets hold at least some tenuous connection (cf. electrician/engineer/maint tech/engine tech - all do "vaguely engineerable stuff").

 

There is an argument for saying that splitting roles too much is bad for the game, and that's true, but in this case the difference is so radical that the roles aren't really comparable at all. There's no reason to lump them together, and with the advent of factions, there's now a reason to split them. Might as well pull the trigger.

[Pratepresidenten]

They can have records, but they're not on the crew manifest. Surely this can be done.

[Carver]

1 hour ago, Pratepresidenten said:

They can have records, but they're not on the crew manifest. Surely this can be done.

You'd have to create a new system of records. The current is one quite intrinsically tied to the crew manifest, to where if an antagonist deletes records from the system, the names disappear off the manifest (even for lobby and discord users who try to look at it OOCly). It's probably doable if a new system was made, but that's beyond the scope of my suggestion to merely split Visitor from Assistant (which was for the sake of just allowing contractors/independents to come on as visitors).

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Keeping them on the manifest allows command to keep track of people. Namely, whos authorized to board. Any visitor should be logged on the manifest. If only for emergency services or clerical work.

[Guest]

I agree they should be their own separate job, but keep them on the manifest. I'm not opposed to putting them in the "other" category though.

[Carver]

Whether or not they're on the manifest is outside of the scope of this suggestion. From an OOC standpoint, it's ideal they are, from an IC standpoint it could be either (And seeing as the visitors joined from lobby are on-station through official channels, such as the Odin arrivals shuttle, it makes sense they are as they'd have records).

[wowzewow]

Honestly :

1. Assistants are already extremely few and far in between anyway - they're practically non-existent here. Separating them would exacerbate this even further.

2. Code-wise, creating an entire new job just for visitors is just a waste of time, probably.

3. You know the function that makes you automatically an assistant when you don't roll your job at round-start? Yeah, I would not like to be demoted to maintenance rat.

4. I don't know, but people visiting a random research station in Fuck-Off, Asteroid Belt somewhere is kinda dumb from the get-go. And I doubt Nanotrasen wants any random contractors to just... visit, and steal company secrets.

Edited August 3, 2019 by wowzewow

[Carver]

54 minutes ago, wowzewow said:

1. Assistants are already extremely few and far in between anyway - they're practically non-existent here. Separating them would exacerbate this even further.

This would do absolutely nothing in changing the frequency of assistants. You seem to think a lack of them is a problem to be exacerbated, somehow.

54 minutes ago, wowzewow said:

2. Code-wise, creating an entire new job just for visitors is just a waste of time, probably.

Code-wise, it would be a waste of time to attempt to figure out how to lock individual alt-titles for various factions instead of performing a simple separation that has been done before (FT/CSI being the example of an off-shoot).

54 minutes ago, wowzewow said:

3. You know the function that makes you automatically an assistant when you don't roll your job at round-start? Yeah, I would not like to be demoted to maintenance rat.

Consider re-reading the thread, because this suggestion does nothing to said function. I'm not suggesting removing assistant as a job.

54 minutes ago, wowzewow said:

4. I don't know, but people visiting a random research station in Fuck-Off, Asteroid Belt somewhere is kinda dumb from the get-go. And I doubt Nanotrasen wants any random contractors to just... visit, and steal company secrets.

Were this the case, it would be station policy to aggressively turn away any and all visiting ships and individuals who hadn't come in via official channels (Nuke Ops, Raiders, etc. as well as Wizards and Ninjas), which isn't the case at all.

[Guest Menown]

New Department; Non-crew

It's that simple, guys. Come on.

[Nantei]

On 28/07/2019 at 04:24, Pratepresidenten said:

Take visitors off the crew manifest aswell, they're not crew, they're visitors.

So there's one specific reason they should be on the manifest: AI laws. Guarantee if you make visitors non-crew it will be abused eventually.

[Kaed]

8 hours ago, Nantei said:

So there's one specific reason they should be on the manifest: AI laws. Guarantee if you make visitors non-crew it will be abused eventually.

I see that as a positive thing, personally.  It makes for interesting scenarios where visitors get in trouble.

[Chada1]

10 hours ago, Nantei said:

So there's one specific reason they should be on the manifest: AI laws. Guarantee if you make visitors non-crew it will be abused eventually.

The AI/'Borgs are already supposed to give Visitors a degree of respect and courtesy (Unless they've begun to attack Crew like Wizard/Ninja etc) as per server rules and even the wiki-bound guide tells them this, so I think this is a base covered personally. Valid concern tho

The reason for this is that the bound synths serve NanoTrasen personnel as a whole, not just the Aurora. How will it impact NanoTrasen if they mistreat tourists/visitors to Aurora?

Which is why I think this is more an OOC problem than an IC one.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Chada1

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Please keep them on the crew manifest even if they are separated.

[Brutishcrab51]

CCIA and ERT are not on the manifest. It is assumed laws apply to these entities, even if they are not on the manifest, because they are NT employees.

 

If an AI isn't dumb, if an Android isn't dumb, they shouldn't mistreat people just because there aren't records of them.

[Carver]

I'm going to further this idea once more since I noticed the job refactor PR (https://github.com/Aurorastation/Aurora.3/pull/6786/files), as now would probably the best time and possibility to have such a change made.

[Carver]

Renewing this idea once more since Alberyk has elected to give maintenance access to Assistants, which won't be present for Visitors. I retain my view that Visitor should be both separate instead of treated as an alt-title, and should be available to non-NT factions.

[ben10083]

On 19/10/2019 at 20:45, Carver said:

Renewing this idea once more since Alberyk has elected to give maintenance access to Assistants, which won't be present for Visitors. I retain my view that Visitor should be both separate instead of treated as an alt-title, and should be available to non-NT factions.

They are seperate, and I feel that they dont have non-nt faction visitors is due to how companies don't contract visitors to come to a station.

 

Also why should we give it a seperate job if there are no problems with it being an alt title.

[Carver]

An alt-title does not mean it's wholly separate, things like secHUD icons as well as the reason I created this suggestion: it wholly prevents having this as an option for other factions without allowing them the visitor role. If we're going by the argument of them not being hired personnel, Visitors at a base level would make the most sense under 'Independent'.

But having them under the other factions would allow for things like people wearing the corporate hats, different ID styles and so on that happen to be locked to said factions whilst being a subtle way of adding just a bit more 'tribalism' (something that highly benefits Consulars in particular). If you attempt to argue 'Why would X wear corporate-branded stuff off-duty', then I have a pile of old shirts from various banks and businesses to show you. I always push for options, and distancing these two roles would open up options for the Visitor role to overall see more of the love it deserves.

[ben10083]

• A better solution is simply have visitor be selectable for the different factions
• Sechud icon is a pretty minor reason to have an entirely separate job

I still fail to see why a seperate job is needed instead of keeping the alt-title.

[furrycactus]

13 hours ago, ben10083 said:

• A better solution is simply have visitor be selectable for the different factions
• Sechud icon is a pretty minor reason to have an entirely separate job

I still fail to see why a seperate job is needed instead of keeping the alt-title.

They have two entirely different sets of expectations. A visitor has zero expectations and they're not working. An assistant, sure, might not have a lot of expectations, but they very much are working and are expected to go around and assist people. And as already stated, both roles sharing the same job slot means contractors can't visit, which just hampers RP potential, which is a problem. Not everything needs to be wholly realistic, the game should be fun.

[Carver]

15 hours ago, ben10083 said:

• A better solution is simply have visitor be selectable for the different factions

I would love this, but the main reason I've presented this thread suggestion is because it'd be potentially less work to separate them than to disallow the title of Assistant specifically to contractors. If it's doable, grand. Otherwise Furrycactus' post sums up my thoughts well.