Do you pay for kitchen/bar items?

[Skull132]

1 minute ago, Ornias said:

The correct response to this isn't to ask how we can give them an in-game reason, but as to why they need an in-game reason.

The more we gamify this system, such as by making things about optimizing supply and demand, the more we're going to have an emphasis on doing things the RIGHT way. I don't consider this a desirable outcome. 

Instead, I think that the correct response is to enforce the idea that you don't need an in-game reason to pursue your characters goals and interests. The fact that your character is on a budget, or is a lavish spender, should be enough to inform your decisions. If it's not, you're not roleplaying. I invite anyone to challenge me on that. 

Disagreement on principle here, first and foremost.

You absolutely need ingame incentives to do things. And ingame justification/reinforcement of actions is a great way to make people go along with them, and to accept them. Yes, we are a roleplaying game, but we're still a game.

You are also correct that implementing gameplay elements will lead to powergaming, and the nibbling of players to do things "The Right Way:tm:", as can already be seen if you monitor some remote logs that admins get. But this is an issue that is manageable, and your own argument may well be applied against this: people shouldn't be powergaming, they should be roleplaying. The fact that the system can be powergamed doesn't mean that it should be.

Also, your last point is fair but. Well, two buts. First, giving mechanics that are open enough for the character to roleplay out the ideas you mentioned should be the goal. In fact, this kind of roleplay could well be enhanced by mechanics: if you can influence your character's economic status, then you would be able to roleplay out things like not having enough money to visit the canteen, for example. The benefit of having mechanics that enforce roleplay is that this would then also be tangible, even to those who don't lean as heavily on roleplay as some others do.

The second but is that with no mechanics, you let people develop their own interpretation of the game. And the analogy of "The Right Way:tm:" is applied yet still, through the creation of social norms that people will not stray from without being punished. With the implementation of mechanics, we can at least influence which way this pendulum swings. By leaving it up to the playerbase, it'd be done through soft means that are less effective quantitatively.

So basically. There is a right way to do this mechanically, while leaving open (and actually creating) interesting prompts for roleplay.

[Doxxmedearly]

6 minutes ago, Ornias said:

Complaining about the cook (as a person) charging for food

People do this a lot and it is annoying. Charge for food and common will be filled with complaints. Which is... absurd. 

15 hours ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

One chef charging then the next chef not makes the 1st chef come off like an ass. I think this is the root of the issue.

It's part of it. But I view this like paperwork; yeah we SHOULD be filling it out, but many don't. However, some like paperwork. The people who don't like it have to suck it up and deal with it in these instances it's demanded, because it's something we should be doing. Just like the chef: They should be charging, but some don't. The difference is, for some reason, people scream about being charged and throw fits, rather than dealing with it as they should. It's not unreasonable to be charged at a work cafeteria.

12 hours ago, Carver said:

Because the cashier at a McDonald's doesn't get to say the Big Mac is suddenly 5 bucks instead of 4 bucks. If you want to avoid hate of the chef, standardize the pricing.

This makes the most sense to me. It's a work cafeteria setting. Meals don't change prices depending on which chef prepares the food that day. Imagine if cargo changed the handling fee based on whoever was working that day. 

[KingOfThePing]

I dont want to read it all so here is how I do it:

- Employees no, covered by contract

- Visitors yes, off duty or random dudes who have to pay up.

 

Fin

[UnknownMurder]

21 minutes ago, Ornias said:

These are deeply upsetting arguments. Do you guys ever eat out in real life? Ever? Or do you rely in vending machines and homemade lunches for all your dietary needs?

Implying that eating out at cafeteria counts as a restaurant. Yes, I do eat out to restaurants. I order food. Aurora Station Cafeteria is different from a restaurant.

Now if you want to hear about charging food in real life experience. My work doesn't charge people for food. We're already covered by contract. No one has to pay for it in our work, it's a big incentive for us. 

I do eat out. Yes. Vending machine and homemade lunches are definitely much cheaper than eating out. 

[Ornias]

8 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

The second but is that with no mechanics, you let people develop their own interpretation of the game. And the analogy of "The Right Way:tm:" is applied yet still, through the creation of social norms that people will not stray from without being punished. With the implementation of mechanics, we can at least influence which way this pendulum swings. By leaving it up to the playerbase, it'd be done through soft means that are less effective quantitatively.

This is a remarkably good point. While I tend to detest the status quo, it is unavoidable that we need something to ground us all to. Generally, I consider this to be the lore (and just the innate human condition I guess).

If I had to express why I don't entirely agree off the top of my head, I'd say that these social norms are imposed by a select few no matter what, whom the community comes to mimic. By removing all forms of unquestionable centralization (aka. mechanical optimization), we would remove the starting point that most social norms are built around, and thus make it much harder to chain the community to them. A social norm of "do things the best according to the mechanics" people are naturally going to feel is a fair assessment, because, like you say, we are in part a game.

In terms of charging for food and drink and how it applys to this greater economics idea, I feel like economics could definitely have it's benefits, so long as we strive to eliminate any kind of perfectionist culture that develop around them. This, in my eyes, will take more work, but I think you're right when you suggest it could create more interesting scenarios.

I'll need to consider your response.

[Ornias]

1 minute ago, UnknownMurder said:

Aurora Station Cafeteria is different from a restaurant.

We have a piano, we have a bar stool, we have a full kitchen with Chefs, we have a collection of wooden tables, we have candles, we have a stage, we have a charger (and before that an Eftpos machine and ATM). It definitely appears to be built with the potential to act as a restaurant.

This restriction of the diner to one specific thing from which people should not deviate destroys people's ability to be creative in their individual designs. I don't think people should have to charge for food, because I think you can do that in believable and interesting ways, and I think any attempts to impose a status quo on character design in this way is very dangerous.

But while it may be true that it's cheaper and faster to get it from a vending machine, it's down to each individual character to assess whether they'll make a purchase. Perhaps I misunderstood you, but I don't think your statement that "I'll go to the cheapest available source" is a desirable one, unless you're talking specifically about one/a selection of your characters.

[GreenBoi]

4 hours ago, KingOfThePing said:

I dont want to read it all so here is how I do it:

- Employees no, covered by contract

- Visitors yes, off duty or random dudes who have to pay up.

 

Fin

But how and why would NT ever want to cover the cost of food, which is a ridiculous variable for all employees disregarding Command?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

We'd solve consistency if we had the space a rented location with cooks and baristas being from a little restraunt chain they make up or a food bank giving free meals. 

Edited July 30, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Carver]

9 hours ago, Ornias said:

The burger that Andrew Flynn makes is not the same burger that Sophie Hitchins makes. Different chefs produce different food, even if they use the same in-game recipe. Charging different prices between chefs helps to demonstrate an aspect of how highly NT/the chef/the chefs boss values their skills.

I don't care which lunch lady made the food, I'm not paying more for one lunch lady's cooking over the other. Standardize the pricing and stop thinking your cafeteria chef is more important than they are.

9 hours ago, Ornias said:

These are deeply upsetting arguments. Do you guys ever eat out in real life? Ever? Or do you rely in vending machines and homemade lunches for all your dietary needs?
The point of in-game hunger is not to serve as an obstacle in the course of you completing your activities. It is meant to serve as another medium by which you can express (and justify expressing) your character. This kind of optimization above character argument is exactly what stifles creativity in how characters interact with the game.

If I'm at work I'm not going to go and eat out. Typically I'd eat before and after work, and if I have a small craving I'll buy some chips or a prepackaged sandwich from a vending machine. Were I to work for NT I know exactly where I'd be eating, somewhere on the Odin.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Carver
Added a 'to' to satiate my grammar national socialism.

[Ornias]

6 minutes ago, Carver said:

 I don't care which lunch lady made the food, I'm not paying more for one lunch lady's cooking over the other. Standardize the pricing and stop thinking your cafeteria chef is more important than they are.

this whole "stop thinking you're more important than you are" mentality is stupidly toxic. there's a difference between a five star chef and a fry cook, and i don't know why you think acknowledging this difference is snowflakey. they make different meals, even if they both make burgers. you have the option to use a pen to specifically describe what the meal you've produced is. you can't argue this point.

[Carver]

41 minutes ago, Ornias said:

this whole "stop thinking you're more important than you are" mentality is stupidly toxic. there's a difference between a five star chef and a fry cook, and i don't know why you think acknowledging this difference is snowflakey. they make different meals, even if they both make burgers. you have the option to use a pen to specifically describe what the meal you've produced is. you can't argue this point.

Yeah, the difference is NT wouldn't pay for a five star chef to work a station cafeteria. Nor would I pay for a five star chef's prices at work. Like I said, were I to actually 'go out and eat' as an NT employee, it'd be at the Odin or somewhere in Mendell.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Carver
Small addendum: There is one case I'd 'go out and eat' on the station. When the visiting merchant is running a restaurant out of their ship.

[Mogelix]

We should give players the choice to charge or not charge, set their own policies and backgrounds, and enforce misuse of comms and slander if they shittalk the chef for doing something they're allowed to do. How do we charge for wacky foods, like humongous cakes/jelly? Standard prices should just be a suggestion. Infact, that's really all that needs to be done, make people acknowledge that they, the chefs are full in their right to charge, enforcing slander and verbal abuse if necessary. Besides, the conflict of a poor person(s) complaining and confronting a chef about their pricing is more interesting and just more versatile then being told "sorry I literally have to"

Edited July 31, 2019 by Mogelix

[Ornias]

3 hours ago, Carver said:

Yeah, the difference is NT wouldn't pay for a five star chef to work a station cafeteria.

look!!!! you're trying to enforce a status quo of conformity again!!!!!!!! you're enforcing standards for characters based on your opinions rather than an organized system (aka: you think the dining area is a cafeteria, you think that NT wouldn't hire a talented chef, you think that all meals are exactly the same, etc), and killing creative character design and interaction as a result!!!!!!!

that besides, we already have a precedent to be the top of your field even in stuff like the bar. you can be one of the best chefs/mixologists in the galaxy. nanotrasen will hire you. this is accepted.

a chef needs a bachelor's degree at the minimum

but we shouldn't NEED a precedent for character design!! i shouldn't need to show this image!! the status quo you want provides us with nothing but repetition

[Carver]

2 hours ago, Ornias said:

look!!!! you're trying to enforce a status quo of conformity again!!!!!!!! you're enforcing standards for characters based on your opinions rather than an organized system (aka: you think the dining area is a cafeteria, you think that NT wouldn't hire a talented chef, you think that all meals are exactly the same, etc), and killing creative character design and interaction as a result!!!!!!!

that besides, we already have a precedent to be the top of your field even in stuff like the bar. you can be one of the best chefs/mixologists in the galaxy. nanotrasen will hire you. this is accepted.

a chef needs a bachelor's degree at the minimum

but we shouldn't NEED a precedent for character design!! i shouldn't need to show this image!! the status quo you want provides us with nothing but repetition

All of this doesn't defeat my point that no matter your training, a burger will cost the same. If more 'quality' food-stuffs such as Carp Sushi and the like cost more in a standardized pricing system, so be it. But the ingredients themselves do not change, and they are where the prices of high-end restaurants come from. If Jesus himself made me a Big Mac, I still wouldn't pay more than the standard four dollars for it.

[Ornias]

2 minutes ago, Carver said:

All of this doesn't defeat my point that no matter your training, a burger will cost the same.

this is incorrect and limiting. i have stated why i disagree but i will quote it here:

7 hours ago, Ornias said:

you have the option to use a pen to specifically describe what the meal you've produced is.

you can individualise your meals, and we have a mechanical system to allow you to do so.

a 5 star chef can make a burger better than i can even with the same ingredients. you can use a little RP magic and pretend he used better spices, timed it better, etc. 

sometimes someone might have a special gimmick (eg. where they prepare the food in front of you) and this would stifle any creativity in that department as well.

your system is limiting and obstructive for seemingly no reason.

[Carver]

5 hours ago, Ornias said:

this is incorrect and limiting. i have stated why i disagree but i will quote it here:

you can individualise your meals, and we have a mechanical system to allow you to do so.

a 5 star chef can make a burger better than i can even with the same ingredients. you can use a little RP magic and pretend he used better spices, timed it better, etc. 

sometimes someone might have a special gimmick (eg. where they prepare the food in front of you) and this would stifle any creativity in that department as well.

your system is limiting and obstructive for seemingly no reason.

My system is entirely just 'stop overpricing your shit and there won't be IC complaints and arguments over pricing and charging'. I'm sure some people appreciate fanciness, but I truly could not give a rat's ass what type of chef there is. If I come for the $4 Big Mac and all you're selling is some gold flake and white truffle $100 burger melt, I'm just going to walk away.

[Doxxmedearly]

29 minutes ago, Carver said:

My system is entirely just 'stop overpricing your shit and there won't be IC complaints and arguments over pricing and charging'

Experience shows that this isn't true, unfortunately. Whenever a chef charges AT ALL currently, there's a ton of complaints. You could set the price to ten credits and people fill common  whining about being charged. This isn't theorizing. This is something I've witnessed a dozen times. 

I think your idea of price standardization is a good one.

[GreenBoi]

4 hours ago, Doxxmedearly said:

Experience shows that this isn't true, unfortunately. Whenever a chef charges AT ALL currently, there's a ton of complaints. You could set the price to ten credits and people fill common  whining about being charged. This isn't theorizing. This is something I've witnessed a dozen times. 

I've played bartender and have it so that people only have to pay 5-15 credits for a drink, 15 if you're pushing it and having me make an advanced drink that takes a couple minutes, and the crew will get so annoyed they have to use the ATM they make another bar and sell drinks for free. I had no customers those rounds, and no one cares because people are so used to getting shit for free.

 

Charging for literally anything gets yelled as overpricing, and it's annoying on both levels.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Idk standardized pricing will solve a little bit. The prices should not be hard numbers. Theyd have to be an average. But having to go to the wiki just to price your burger would be annoying.

I dont think anything will solve this issue unless people just roll with it. I dont know why it is not something you can OOCly gloss over. Money does not matter and you have total freedom to offhandedly change how you reference how much you spent a round before.

 

You don't lose anything by playing along with a cook or chef. Its super mean to me to yell at them IC and get really defensive OOC here. We're trying to have a good time just spend 20 creds on a burger and thank the cook.

[Brutishcrab51]

8 hours ago, Carver said:

My system is entirely just 'stop overpricing your shit and there won't be IC complaints and arguments over pricing and charging'. I'm sure some people appreciate fanciness, but I truly could not give a rat's ass what type of chef there is. If I come for the $4 Big Mac and all you're selling is some gold flake and white truffle $100 burger melt, I'm just going to walk away.

I can go to the store, buy filet mignon, cook it and take it to work. It's in my lunchbox.

 

Or, I can go to A-So, a restaurant where they prepare the food in front of me. 30 USD for a filet mignon, but you know what? That dude cuts this sucker up right in front of me and balanced an egg on a cleaver and made me laugh while doing it, and it was a good fucking meal.

 

Why wouldn't NT pay for a high-class chef? President Dorn, Admiral Frost, Lord Han'San (Dominia Diplomat), Secretary Aristalus and more have been onboard, and it helps people forget that their corporation has the legal right to rip out brains and stick mind chips in corporate officers. This is stupid to argue. RP as you want as a cook, and provide the RP to back up your prices, and it'll be fine.

[GreenBoi]

1 hour ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

Idk standardized pricing will solve a little bit. The prices should not be hard numbers. Theyd have to be an average. But having to go to the wiki just to price your burger would be annoying.

I mean, the Guide to Food and Drinks is already used by bartenders and chef for this. For the sake of not cluttering up that already-huge page, we could just add a new page called 'Guide to Pricing' that gives averages on GENERAL foods.

 

By general, I mean instead of naming the price for each individual food (a task no one will ever do), it's just a rough average on the type of food. For instance:

Burger | 6-11cR

Pizza | 21-50cR

 

etc. etc.

[Xelnagahunter]

1 hour ago, Marlon Phoenix said:

Idk standardized pricing will solve a little bit. The prices should not be hard numbers. Theyd have to be an average. But having to go to the wiki just to price your burger would be annoying.

I dont think anything will solve this issue unless people just roll with it. I dont know why it is not something you can OOCly gloss over. Money does not matter and you have total freedom to offhandedly change how you reference how much you spent a round before.

 

You don't lose anything by playing along with a cook or chef. Its super mean to me to yell at them IC and get really defensive OOC here. We're trying to have a good time just spend 20 creds on a burger and thank the cook.

Not saying that I think being defensive about this is really rule breaking, but to sum up what was said here. "Don't be a dick."

PLay the game and enjoy it. We use a LOT of suspension of disbelief in this game, why should the fact that not everyone understands currency value the same way be any different. Some places use a currency system that breaks into smaller units so their system seems more valuable, others don't.

We are all here to have fun and you don't lose any possibility of that fun by spending money. Wanna be mad IC fine, but leave the salt there and out of our OOC.

 

3 minutes ago, GreenBoi said:

I mean, the Guide to Food and Drinks is already used by bartenders and chef for this. For the sake of not cluttering up that already-huge page, we could just add a new page called 'Guide to Pricing' that gives averages on GENERAL foods.

 

By general, I mean instead of naming the price for each individual food (a task no one will ever do), it's just a rough average on the type of food. For instance:

Burger | 6-11cR

Pizza | 21-50cR

 

etc. etc.

Why not let a price gun work properly on these items and let the chef decide what to actually charge based on that?

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

1 hour ago, Xelnagahunter said:

Why not let a price gun work properly on these items and let the chef decide what to actually charge based on that?

OOOOO yaaaas queen

 

[Carver]

2 hours ago, Brutishcrab51 said:

I can go to the store, buy filet mignon, cook it and take it to work. It's in my lunchbox.

 

Or, I can go to A-So, a restaurant where they prepare the food in front of me. 30 USD for a filet mignon, but you know what? That dude cuts this sucker up right in front of me and balanced an egg on a cleaver and made me laugh while doing it, and it was a good fucking meal.

 

Why wouldn't NT pay for a high-class chef? President Dorn, Admiral Frost, Lord Han'San (Dominia Diplomat), Secretary Aristalus and more have been onboard, and it helps people forget that their corporation has the legal right to rip out brains and stick mind chips in corporate officers. This is stupid to argue. RP as you want as a cook, and provide the RP to back up your prices, and it'll be fine.

Because as an NT Employee I wouldn't pay $30 for a filet mignon, and if the chef is the only option to get food I want the $4 burger. If I'm in the middle of working I don't want to go to a 5* restaurant when I just need something to keep going in my shift. As I said, by all means have the shit using exotic ingredients like carp sushi cost more. But the basic burgers, fries and the like should be cheap. Else I will RP walking the fuck away from those prices and never going to your chef.

[Brutishcrab51]

That's fine, buy food from the vendors if you think quality food is unreasonable.