On the Subject of Ta (Vaurca Breeder Consulars)

[Mofo1995]

Hi everyone!

Ever since the introduction of Ta, there's been a shock reaction among staff that we should remove them. Most of the reasons have been surrounding their appearance, namely that they're massive hideous bugs and they feel... out of place. Essentially, the feeling is that they're too extreme. On the other hand, it's been argued, this characteristic contributes to their "alieness" and that this is actually a positive feature that contributes to making vaurca distinctive and different and positively contributes to roleplay. A few weeks ago I had asked Vaurca players to give me stories about their RP with and as the Ta to give me a better idea of how they contribute to roleplay, but aside from stating that they liked them, I received no such stories. I had told the former Vaurca dev, ByoneHero, that my next step in handling the situation was to create a community feedback thread to determine what the wider general community thinks about it, since so far the only two perspectives I have is some staff who don't like them and vaurca players themselves who do. I have absolutely no idea what the every man among our players think or have any inkling of what the general consensus on them is.  The limited scope of feedback I've gathered so far isn't very informative, so I want to lay my cards on the table and ask everyone "What do you think about Vaurca Breeder Consulars?" Do you like them? Enjoy having them around? Do you think they're too far? Just right? Not far enough? The decision has been put on my shoulders as to if we should keep them, and I want to make sure I hear more voices before I make any too hasty decisions. Though so far one decision has been made, which was supposed to be satisfied by now but was not, which is to shrink their sprite size a bit. I believe it was agreed to make them 32x32. So! Lemme know below what you think of Ta, post your supports, criticisms, RP stories, anything you would like to contribute.

[Kryostro]

I like them, the people that currently play them are really superb at roleplay. Last round one of them even hosted a DND session, which is actually rad on so many levels. So they're awesome in my opinion.

[Alberyk]

I think they should be removed due to the following reasons:

-it makes them less important and unique. They are giant bugs that are wandering freely on station, and it is possible for them to show every round. That makes them less special and unique, imagine if the tajaran tank showed up every round. If anything they make our other monsters, like juggernauts and etc, look less important, because you are literally talking and making friends with a giant bug monster.

-it feels forced, vaurca are a species that were not allowed no take regular positions because they were just discovered in around three or four years ago, they were put in ghettos were they would be attacked by gangs and angry people. Now, somehow, they have an entire political representation in NT, and it is being lead by giant bugs.

-it is not believable. Why are you sending the breeders to be diplomats to humans? Why not send something more human-like, like a bound? Why send the most monstrous creature to be your diplomat instead of something that would invoke more sympathy?

-it is shitcode. Yes, I coded it, it is badly handled, and the sprites are also way too big. The vaurca team failed to deliver smaller ones.

[Roostercat]

As a vaurca player, the Ta tend to provide extra RP in a variety of situations. They can be a counselor or advisor or you could run errands for them. For example, My Zo’ra officer, Crono, tends to be a bodyguard like role to a Ta when all the officer slots are full, and every Ta I have seen thus far has done an exemplary job at roleplaying and conversing with various crewmembers.Sometimes a Ta settles disputes between hive members, acting as a sort of negotiator. Sometimes they provide guidance to vaurca suffering under things like racism, other times they just want to have some k’ois jelly with you. I believe that the Ta have no real negative effect on the server, thus removing them has no point. On the subject of their looks, they are just that, looks. You will not see a Ta do labor or fighting a threat, they instead delegate that to a Ka or Za respectively. They are a mostly RP role and for the most part and can only add on to the RP of the Vaurca species. Although I can see why other species may not want gigantic bug mom’s running around the place. Maybe a remodel would do them good

Edited September 14, 2019 by Roostercat

[Mofo1995]

6 minutes ago, Roostercat said:

 On the subject of their looks, they are just that, looks. You will not see a Ta do labor or fighting a threat, they instead delegate that to a Ka or Za respectively. 

I actually had a Ta interject into a shootout I started with security just yesterday [Edit: Actually, two days ago]. It kept chasing me and disarm spamming me, and at some point it even said it would shield the officers and kept getting in front of them to take my shots. Once the fighting wound down a bit, and security and I pulled back from each other on account of robusting each other, it followed me solo while I was over a screen away from security and disarm spammed my fireaxe away. The entire fight it was in my face disarm spamming me for my fireaxe while I was shooting/axing security, and it when it kept getting in my way and fighting me.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Mofo1995

[Alberyk]

I am not against them having a consular. I am against the consular being a breeder due to the reasons I explained. I don't see why another type of vaurca could not do the same job.

[AccointNaim]

1 minute ago, Mofo1995 said:

I actually had a Ta interject into a shootout I started with security just yesterday. It kept chasing me and disarm spamming me, and at some point it even said it would shield the officers and kept getting in front of them to take my shots.

Then that's just poor roleplay, not really the fault of the Ta existing. Blame the player, not the game. Other than that I don't have anything to say about removing Ta.

[Mofo1995]

Just now, AccointNaim said:

Then that's just poor roleplay, not really the fault of the Ta existing. Blame the player, not the game. Other than that I don't have anything to say about removing Ta.

True! I was just offering my input on the assertion that they don't get involved, since uh, that was quite involved. I neither ahelped nor filed a complaint about it, and I don't think that incident would constitute a reason to remove Ta.

[Happy_Fox]

I agree that Breeders are an odd choice for a representative - as representatives they're meant to represent interests in an alien environment, to be a go-between for their potentially less diplomatic faction members - not as an exaggerated display of their "alieness". Personally I like the fact they look horrific - but not that this is something worn openly. If the argument is that Ta are needed as they're the most diplomatic then they would try to counter any issues faced with this.

I think a good solution would be to provide Ta with an "encounter suit" to hide their appearance from everyday crew. If you've ever seen Babylon 5, there are a species called the Vorlon who have a similar issue with sending representatives - so their ambassador wears an "encounter suit" to mask their appearance. This keeps an air of mystery about what they look like under the outfit (retcon that they're rarely seen outside the suits when in alien space) and keeps them looking horrific if the suits are ever removed.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Happy_Fox

[Mofo1995]

12 minutes ago, Happy_Fox said:

I agree that Breeders are an odd choice for a representative - as representatives they're meant to represent interests in an alien environment, to be a go-between for their potentially less diplomatic faction members - not as an exaggerated display of their "alieness". Personally I like the fact they look horrific - but not that this is something worn openly. If the argument is that Ta are needed as they're the most diplomatic then they would try to counter any issues faced with this.

I think a good solution would be to provide Ta with an "encounter suit" to hide their appearance from everyday crew. If you've ever seen Babylon 5, there are a species called the Vorlon who have a similar issue with sending representatives - so their ambassador wears an "encounter suit" to mask their appearance. This keeps an air of mystery about what they look like under the outfit (retcon that they're rarely seen outside the suits when in alien space) and keeps them looking horrific if the suits are ever removed.

Woah. That's a cool idea.

[Bygonehero]

2 hours ago, Alberyk said:

I think they should be removed due to the following reasons:

-it makes them less important and unique. They are giant bugs that are wandering freely on station, and it is possible for them to show every round. That makes them less special and unique, imagine if the tajaran tank showed up every round. If anything they make our other monsters, like juggernauts and etc, look less important, because you are literally talking and making friends with a giant bug monster.

-it feels forced, vaurca are a species that were not allowed no take regular positions because they were just discovered in around three or four years ago, they were put in ghettos were they would be attacked by gangs and angry people. Now, somehow, they have an entire political representation in NT, and it is being lead by giant bugs.

-it is not believable. Why are you sending the breeders to be diplomats to humans? Why not send something more human-like, like a bound? Why send the most monstrous creature to be your diplomat instead of something that would invoke more sympathy?

-it is shitcode. Yes, I coded it, it is badly handled, and the sprites are also way too big. The vaurca team failed to deliver smaller ones.

The first point: The way Fowl Implemented them originally didn't match the self-same lore he wrote for them. They aren't meant for combat, in any sense. Further, they would be encountered regularly by people within the city planetside, as every hive cell of every Vaurca hive has one that keeps its numbers in check. 

The second point: This is incorrect, Vaurca are a species where most if not all of the Zo'ra hive alone on Tau Ceti must in fact work for Nanotrasen. They have regular positions throughout the company. They were discovered five years ago. Since then, There have been many circumstances where Tau Ceti has opened up to them, many which occurred before my tenure.

The third point: Alieness is a positive, not a negative. If you purposefully expose just your most humanoid members of your species to humans then none of the others would ever become Normalized. I say none of the others as there are many Nonhumanoid Za and Ka as well. These would be seen throughout Tau Ceti and even beyond, so an argument about hiding non-humanoids doesn't hold weight.

the fourth point: I asked for assistance from several developers but I couldn't get their help with the sprites. I did the best I could given the circumstance. The sprite itself is only 35x35 right now, which normal sprites are 32x32. Three pixels are not much bigger and if given assistance from actually skilled people, this is a nonissue.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Bygonehero

[Bygonehero]

2 hours ago, Mofo1995 said:

Though so far one decision has been made, which was supposed to be satisfied by now but was not, which is to shrink their sprite size a bit. I believe it was agreed to make them 32x32. So! Lemme know below what you think of Ta, post your supports, criticisms, RP stories, anything you would like to contribute.

I linked this in staff chat the day of this agreement after discussing with Arrow, it was asked if this was alright but we received no response at the time. I'm personally not a fan of it, as it just makes less detail, but it fit the requirements set forth.

TypeC32x32.dmi

Edited September 14, 2019 by Bygonehero

[EvilBrage]

Not a fan.

Regardless of their intended application, they're huge. They're so far outside the norm in terms of their appearance - everything from their sprite to their size. Even shrinking them down presents the challenge that they're still more like bugs than anything else on the station. Worse yet is that everyone seems to think this is normal. I'm not seeing a practical application of the lore stating that mistrust exists surrounding the Vaurca, barring head of staff limitations - and I think a hulking monstrosity isn't the right way to go in terms of diplomatic representation.

To be blunt: you don't fully integrate a species in five years. It took humans decades to overcome differences in skin color - if we want to retcon our lore and say they were discovered fifty years ago, that's fine, but I agree that the idea that a very new species earning diplomatic representation is ridiculous.

Mind you, I'm still not a fan of the idea that Nanotrasen allows Vaurca to even get close to their sensitive science and engineering departments, despite having been discovered so recently - so take all this with that in mind.

[Bygonehero]

19 minutes ago, EvilBrage said:

Not a fan.

Regardless of their intended application, they're huge. They're so far outside the norm in terms of their appearance - everything from their sprite to their size. Even shrinking them down presents the challenge that they're still more like bugs than anything else on the station. Worse yet is that everyone seems to think this is normal. I'm not seeing a practical application of the lore stating that mistrust exists surrounding the Vaurca, barring head of staff limitations - and I think a hulking monstrosity isn't the right way to go in terms of diplomatic representation.

To be blunt: you don't fully integrate a species in five years. It took humans decades to overcome differences in skin color - if we want to retcon our lore and say they were discovered fifty years ago, that's fine, but I agree that the idea that a very new species earning diplomatic representation is ridiculous.

Mind you, I'm still not a fan of the idea that Nanotrasen allows Vaurca to even get close to their sensitive science and engineering departments, despite having been discovered so recently - so take all this with that in mind.

I don't really think of their role as a representative is a diplomatic one as much as it is the effective head of a labor union. Just how different megacorps represent different contractor labor groups, the Ta represents hive labor groups. It is not diplomatic in any sense, nor was it ever intended to be. In this sense, it doesn't require full integration at all, simply a reliance on Vaurca labor in some way.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Bygonehero

[EvilBrage]

1 minute ago, Bygonehero said:

I don't really think of their role as a representative is a diplomatic one as much as it is the effective head of a labor union. Just how different megacorps represent different contractor labor groups, the Ta represents hive labor groups. It is not diplomatic in any sense, nor was it ever intended to be. In this sense, it doesn't require full integration at all, simply a reliance on Vaurca labor in some way.

Right, but then we run into the question as to why Nanotrasen allows such a cheap and specialized source of labor to unionize in the first place - especially considering that their citizenship status is in question. It doesn't make much sense that the cold corporatocracy would extend additional rights to the vaurca of their own volition.

My opinion is that this is a unique opportunity to distinguish the vaurca from other species beyond their mechanics and appearance; again, if we'd like to revise the lore to state their discovery was much earlier than we currently set it as, that's fine, but I still feel like we're missing the opportunity to portray the friction a new species would cause.

[Alberyk]

1 hour ago, Bygonehero said:

The first point: The way Fowl Implemented them originally didn't match the self-same lore he wrote for them. They aren't meant for combat, in any sense. Further, they would be encountered regularly by people within the city planetside, as every hive cell of every Vaurca hive has one that keeps its numbers in check. 

The second point: This is incorrect, Vaurca are a species where most if not all of the Zo'ra hive alone on Tau Ceti must in fact work for Nanotrasen. They have regular positions throughout the company. They were discovered five years ago. Since then, There have been many circumstances where Tau Ceti has opened up to them, many which occurred before my tenure.

The third point: Alieness is a positive, not a negative. If you purposefully expose just your most humanoid members of your species to humans then none of the others would ever become Normalized. I say none of the others as there are many Nonhumanoid Za and Ka as well. These would be seen throughout Tau Ceti and even beyond, so an argument about hiding non-humanoids doesn't hold weight.

the fourth point: I asked for assistance from several developers but I couldn't get their help with the sprites. I did the best I could given the circumstance. The sprite itself is only 35x35 right now, which normal sprites are 32x32. Three pixels are not much bigger and if given assistance from actually skilled people, this is a nonissue.

Not even my point. They are still giant monster with countless arms, they have giant mandibles and wings. Having them around make monsters mudane, it makes them and other creatures less valuable story-wise. And how do people see them all the time if vaurca are meant to live in their own ghetto?

They still need to have an awoval signed, and they were discovered in less than six or so years. 

And if they are normalized, it defeats the point of alieness at all. After all, it would make far more sense for a diplomat to try to envoke any kind of sympath, I for sure would have no real sympathy if the other person speaking to me was a giant bug monster. No, it would not be normal for people to see non-humanoids, the breeders and warforms are pretty much the only example among the playable species, with the exception of the dionae, but those either exist in space or don't matter all because they have zero presence at all.

Sorry, but the vaurca breeder being on station on a normal days is pretty much the clear example of the vaurca lore creep. They exist everwhere, they can do everything, their importance exploded since they were discovered. Then, you have the c'thur that can ignore the awoval due to being friends with the skrell somehow. I am not against the consular and their stuff existing, I am against the breeder being the consular, it is very silly and it is a clear detriment to the story as whole.

[MiniusAreas]

I don't play Aurora much, but I will say something because I had a run-in with one.

Ta are essentially massive bugs to us, yes, but what most people fail to see is that where a human might think of it being ugly, The Vaurca see it as their motherly figure. My first reaction was pure shock and awe at it, then attempting to be polite and courteous as Rojams who is well known as being rude and cursing their head off at every little thing. Sprites have a big impact on how we play, and while they may look like monsters, there's a lot of roleplay that can be done with them. I'm for keeping them and the original sprite - Someone had to put in work to intergrate this into our code, and removing it because us as humans see it as "ugly" seems very rude. Its a alien - Let aliens be alien, seeing as almost all of the races currently are humanlike in nature, a big thing that's discouraged me from playing of recent.

[SleepyWolf]

I really enjoy the Vaurca consulars, the Ta are really awesome. I've made a unique character, Avaricee, who's interacted with a reasonable amount of vaurca and crew. They're trying hard to be seen as normal - it's one of the brood's main things to try and make vaurca seem normal in Tau Ceti, in menial jobs. The debate between 'Should this be normal or not' is what they're there to display. Nanotrasen wants to control them, they want to control Nanotrasen, both think they have the upper hand. But who knows how it will go? 

There's so much good to be had with them, and I've had loads of amazing interactions with people, talking as a mother to human mothers, caring for my Zo'ra kin like family, having little delegated food times... That sense of authority over the other Vaurca is impressive, and is definitely a way to show the species is unique in its own ways.

I feel they're fine as is, and I enjoy them heavily. They deserve to stay.

I'm sending this before I see the 2 other replies I literally just saw sent.

[Scheveningen]

Man, I think they're amazing just the way they are. I'd argue they need a little more customization since there's a lot of clothing that isn't adjusted to them, and they only have one style at the moment (which, granted, is due to their size). The Ta are great to roleplay as, within the understanding that they are not intended for combat and are essentially giant cheerleaders, to put it simply. They're unsettling but entertaining to interact with on the other side of things, provided the person isn't playing the Ta incorrectly.

They're fantastic, I will say they deserve improvement because nothing is truly perfect, but the premise of their existence is great and I love how they stand out. Vaurca culture on its own to begin with is radically different from how a human or even any other xeno lives their life.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I like Ta. Good weird alien rp that you can't really get used to IC'ly. They must remain. Or else.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Marlon Phoenix

[Scheveningen]

Doublepost- And honestly I don't really care if they show up every round so long as it's a good roleplayer behind the Ta. Only one person can be that Ta at any given point in a standard round, and sometimes it may not even be possible if the Consul role is already taken. I don't think the Adhominian tank is a good comparison because the tank can't roleplay, it's designed to roll over and kill people. So thank fuck it doesn't appear every round.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

(or else I will beat up the OP with my huge muscles)

[Bygonehero]

1 hour ago, Alberyk said:

Not even my point. They are still giant monster with countless arms, they have giant mandibles and wings. Having them around make monsters mudane, it makes them and other creatures less valuable story-wise. And how do people see them all the time if vaurca are meant to live in their own ghetto?

They still need to have an awoval signed, and they were discovered in less than six or so years. 

And if they are normalized, it defeats the point of alieness at all. After all, it would make far more sense for a diplomat to try to envoke any kind of sympath, I for sure would have no real sympathy if the other person speaking to me was a giant bug monster. No, it would not be normal for people to see non-humanoids, the breeders and warforms are pretty much the only example among the playable species, with the exception of the dionae, but those either exist in space or don't matter all because they have zero presence at all.

Sorry, but the vaurca breeder being on station on a normal days is pretty much the clear example of the vaurca lore creep. They exist everwhere, they can do everything, their importance exploded since they were discovered. Then, you have the c'thur that can ignore the awoval due to being friends with the skrell somehow. I am not against the consular and their stuff existing, I am against the breeder being the consular, it is very silly and it is a clear detriment to the story as whole.

It doesn't make monsters mundane. It doesn't demonsterify animated masses of crystals powered by souls. They don't show up every round either.

Avowals are how they achieve higher positions in the company. They still have positions in the company.

Normalization is a process. It is not a process magically achieved at this very second by this one token gesture from the company. You can only begin the normalization process by exposure. There are nonhumanoid Ka and Za as well that are not warforms. 

Vaurca have the most restrictive roles and places out of all species. It isn't lore creep. Tajara can come from the Frontier, Adhomai, Moghes, Tau Ceti. Unathi can come from Moghes, Dominia, Tau Ceti, Frontier. Dionae, Anywhere. Synths, Anywhere but Fed. Skrell, Fed, Frontier, Tau Ceti, Eridani, Moghes, Humans Everywhere but Adhomai and Moghes. 

Vaurca can come from three places. Moghes, Fed, Tau Ceti. Unlike other species, they have no homeworld where lore can take place that is largely disconnected from other things. This is why you believe they are involved in so many things, because so much of their lore isn't irrelievent, it does not take  place in a void that will not or can not affect something else. C'thur can avoid an avowal because they are authorized by the federation prior to even being allowed to leave it. This selection process is strict enough to adhere to or exceed Nanotrasen requirements.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Bygonehero

[Bygonehero]

1 hour ago, EvilBrage said:

Right, but then we run into the question as to why Nanotrasen allows such a cheap and specialized source of labor to unionize in the first place - especially considering that their citizenship status is in question. It doesn't make much sense that the cold corporatocracy would extend additional rights to the vaurca of their own volition.

My opinion is that this is a unique opportunity to distinguish the vaurca from other species beyond their mechanics and appearance; again, if we'd like to revise the lore to state their discovery was much earlier than we currently set it as, that's fine, but I still feel like we're missing the opportunity to portray the friction a new species would cause.

Dorne made them citizens. Further, it wasn't of their own volition. The government of Tau Ceti extends citizenship status, not NT

[Bygonehero]

4 hours ago, Alberyk said:

 

-it feels forced, vaurca are a species that were not allowed no take regular positions because they were just discovered in around three or four years ago, they were put in ghettos were they would be attacked by gangs and angry people. Now, somehow, they have an entire political representation in NT, and it is being lead by giant bugs.

 

4 hours ago, Alberyk said:

I am not against them having a consular. I am against the consular being a breeder due to the reasons I explained. I don't see why another type of vaurca could not do the same job.

Additionally, you mentioned that it felt forced, but you are ok with them having a consular if it isnt a Ta? Wouldn't that still not solve the issue of it feeling forced?