Absolute State

[BurgerBB]

Honestly I just want to share a hilarious situation here and possibly offer some very unique insight that is never talked about here. Note that this isn't a callout post of a specific person.

Some context. About a year ago another player's tried courting one of my Unathi characters. I semi-played along with it because I thought it was in the spirit of RP, and I personally found it hilarious. But as time went on, shit became creepier and creepier considering they wanted to have an in-game wedding and wanted me to wear schoolgirl uniforms. I decided to just completely cut ties with the person full stop and didn't say anything considering the dude involved was a fucking moderator, was actually 40 years old or something (rumor I think), and other staff, mostly lore folks, was completely aware of how some of the scenes would turn into borderline erp so it was clear I had 0 chance of getting this resolved without me putting a bullet through my brain. But yeah, when I eventually realised "hey this isn't actually funny, I'm pretty fucking sure this dude is a creep", I reported it to someone who was staff but wasn't an admin because they were literally the only one I could contact as I was kinda permabanned and no one responded to my DMs or friend requests. He didn't see the use in pursuing it at the time. I talked about it again when I got back from the permaban to but some administrators made fun of me for not reporting it properly and didn't seem welcoming when it came to try and talk about.

Keeping the above in mind when I got back, I remade a new character. A 25 year old obnoxious, yelling, extremely tall, and overweight female lizard who is only snowflake in how generic they look. Their flavortext was 3 sentences long, stating that they were female, 6'8 or whatever the fuck, and borderline overweight. There were 0 references to where their body fat was located; for all we know they could just have 200 pounds of fat in the arms and 10 pounds of fat elsewhere (artist's rendition). Regardless, for their outfit, they dressed in a scottish kilt and a large black leather sleeveless vest. They were a closet lesbian at most and were always mistaken as a male by 99% of human players. They were completely unfuckable and literally designed that way to avoid players who got a little too into that "wives are property" lore shit to avoid creepy behavior.

But despite this, people still found a way to be fucking weird about them. My character has been subjected to and seen some pretty deplorable behavior, IC and OOC. Examples include being called "mistress", "thicc", "girthy", "voluptuous", and unironically "nubile" which I actually had to look up in a dictionary which made me laugh, cry, and die all at once. A more specific and recent example, someone said in LOOC that they want to rub my character's "tummy" in which case I promptly told them to fuck off in a polite way aka saying "Please don't say that."

About 90% of these are jokes but there is that 10% there that makes you uncomfortable and question whether or not the 90% is actually 90%, but maybe like 75%, 50%, or even 25%. The number gets lower and lower each time I report the 10% of instances just based on the excuses other players and staff have for this behavior. Like I've dealt with some weird fucking shit from admins and staff across all games and servers, but never have I suffered an admin telling me that it's okay for someone to say something sexual towards a character that I control because they personally find the remarks cute. Given that I complain and ahelp a lot, I get other justifications too to excuse some questionable behavior from other players that I don't feel comfortable with. These are the ones that I can mostly remember without butchering the hell out of it.

- Don't play a female unathi if you don't want to be treated like one.

- It's part of Unathi culture.

- Seperate the IC from the OOC.

- You shouldn't be uncomfortable OOCly when someone does something uncomfortable to your character ICly.

- The behavior has good intentions therefore that is all that should matter.

- It's not creepy, it's endearing.

And I'm not saying the people who are justifying this are sexist, but the language and justifications they use are DANGEROUSLY CHEESY CLOSE to the language and justifications people use to justify IRL sexual harassment. Now, I'm not saying that actual IRL sexual harassment is the same as one of my characters being called thicc in a 2d atmos simulator, but you just can't help comparing and contrasting the logic people use to defend this sort of behavior in game and in real life.

I think a good starting point towards a solution to maybe cut down on this behavior is to maybe consider the comfort levels of other players and maybe not say or do things that would reasonably get a normal person to be weirded out. Like most people just use themselves for self reference and say "well if it doesn't make me uncomfortable, then it probably won't make me uncomfortable" and then unironically proceed to talk about how their desire as a unathi male is becoming a husband completely subservient woman (THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED). If that doesn't convince you, then consider this: Aurorastation doesn't have an age requirement. Consider for a moment that you may be talking about your robust sexual attraction to 2d lizardpeople, to a 15 year old dude.

 

Edited January 9, 2020 by BurgerBB

[Skull132]

As a preface. I'm going to wildly disagree with you on one count, and will be agreeing with you on a few others. But hey, such is life, you can't make everyone agree with you.

Re: First paragraph. Trying to negate a call-out by stating it's not a call-out doesn't really work. But more to the point. The general policy here is, starting from the era of the Apartment Server incident, to absolutely not give a fuck about what other RP (or ERP, in the specific case of the Apartment Server) people get up to elsewhere or in their private messages. This is under two conditions: laws are respected and all individuals are okay with the interactions. In your call-out, it seems like the episode ended when you noped the fuck away from the situation (which is fine), ergo there was no harassment. There were also no laws broken, unless you care to enlighten me.

This policy exists because otherwise, we would have the untenable task of dealing with "this guy was degenerate elsewhere" reports. We do not care. We should not care. Our house is our server, as long as the person adheres to our rules while in our house, that is fine. Again, with exception given to instances where actual common western law is broken, or where there is a relatively serious case of harassment/non-consensual shit. Your opening statement does nothing but incite a witch hunt, as would the policy required to enforce the rules the way you want them enforced. Because there is no better witch hunt than a case of, "He plays on vore and he likes to ERP there!"

To continue. A surprising amount of people, for example, ERP in their private RP or on other servers. Which is fine as long as: all characters depicted and individuals involved are over the age of consent and everyone has given their consent to be involved in it. It might not be your cup to tea, but this is common and it's best not to judge at times. (Or technically, judge to your heart's content. But don't try to go seeking your own justice against them, specially not here.) As for getting involved in such groupings, as long as you can leave when you wish, which you did per your description, it's fine. Not your cup of tea, but you were able to nope away without the other party acting out against you in a hostile manner.

Now. With this said.

As I said, our house, our rules. The rest of your post addresses our rules and player's conduct on our server. Which is actually a valid ground for us to rule on, as per what I established before. You're effectively reiterating your complaint against Alb and Prate here, but since Garn has other complaints to manage, he has yet to get around to putting his current opinion down on writing there. I can reiterate what we've mulled over though, and at least the opinion that I would lean on.

For the lack of a better word, "Degenerate" conduct here has a line and tummy rubs fall beyond that line. Along with a whole slew of other shit. This is my opinion.

Fine on vore, I really don't give a crap. Might be fine on tg to rub behind the ears of a ca/tg/rille, but don't do it here. Also any clearly sexual conduct or references fall beyond that line. Also Zundy's shirtposting IMO, but we'll leave that shit for another day.

And yes, I do agree with you that the metric of, "Well I'm okay with it, so should you be," is retarded and really bad. (And I'm not saying it's used by staff.) This is roughly why rules exist.

As for the actual enforcement of the rules. Technically the rule to be cited here would be the one about keeping content largely PG. This is why that rule exists and where it has been used previously. Otherwise you have it fall under rule 0: always listen to staff. How effective it is. I'll have to leave answering this question up to the staff. Generally speaking, there are two things to make note of. Regardless of how much noise you make, running off on a crusade just because of what one person said is not too smart (been there, done that, don't want to repeat). Time needs to be taken to assess the situation and to actually figure out the extent of the damages. The second thing is that, when a specific policy has been let too lax, we usually write a staff memo about it and sometimes an address to the general playerbase to hash out the issue. Typically this has worked, but it's a slow process and will not see people getting the bannu. And you might still be left with cases that you disagree with (like the first one). However, it should more clearly communicate the policy and the staff's interpretation behind it.

Will any of that happen? Well, we'll see starting with your staff complaint. Tho this is primarily in the court of the Head Admins, and I will not step into their lane unless absolutely all hope has been lost.

Post closing, I have two more notes to make. I couldn't well think of a way to intertwine them into the rest of the post.

Note that we're a heavy roleplay server. And we have lore. Lore is going to dictate certain things and certain attitudes, such as in Unathi culture the women being commonly held in lower regard as men. Which is, quite frankly, gonna result in certain roleplay instances where female Unathi characters are gonna be put down over male ones. This should, however, not be clearly sexual in nature, per my note above, and shouldn't really be a case of sexual harassment (I think our previous record with regards to IC sexual harassment taken too far is to nuke the player, at least one case comes to mind, though I'd have to research more to find the details).

Second note, just to cover my ass legally, really, is that we do have an age limit on the server. US law establishes a few things regarding data processing and online registration consent that we have to adhere to. With it comes an age limit of 13 years. Anyone reported to be younger than that we need to ban and remove the account details of. Roughly.

[geeves]

Say "Please stop." and ahelp it.

[FreshRefreshments]

Lets go down that list of justifications. I assume some of these are justifications for IC actions and OOC actions.

 

- Don't play a female unathi if you don't want to be treated like one. (IC)

 There are some choices in the viewpoint of Unathi that let you retort with this. Ouerea. Wastelanders. The Queendom. Women from these places, don't have to be treated as an object. But you're still going to get remarks from traditionalist men, because it is in their society that your job for your character, is not meant for you. 

If you cannot deal with the "IC ramifications" of being a female Unathi in a "male" position, then play a man. 

 

- It's part of Unathi culture. (IC)

You're entire right. It is. I'm not going to make a bullshit character because you don't want me to play a traditionalist that acts like one.

 

- Seperate the IC from the OOC. (Bit of both.)

Here, does require context. If someone makes an uncomfortable remark to you in LOOC, that is not an IC action. Thats, just Local, OOC. And if they persist, it can keep up into harassment. 

However, you cannot tell them to stop, they stop, and then complain when nothing is done to them. 

 

- You shouldn't be uncomfortable OOCly when someone does something uncomfortable to your character ICly. (Bit of both.)

I agree, to an extent. For someone like me, the bar is different between what makes me uncomfortable and what makes my character uncomfortable, but I am not universal. If you are genuinely uncomfortable, say so. Leave the situation. Ahelp. 

 

- The behavior has good intentions therefore that is all that should matter. (OOC)

Whether or not the behavior has good intentions comes into bad faith. If you ahelp someone for being creepy, and they DM you with the same creepy shit, theres that. 

But if you ahelp, or ask them to stop, and they do not bother you anymore, THIS is what matters. Someone is much less likely to be punished if they do something without meaning to, as far as ive seen. Mistakes happen, people make each other uncomfortable without meaning to. There are tons of people who take something as HEINOUS as "lemme rub that lizard tummy" as a joke. People are not mind readers. 

 

- It's not creepy, it's endearing. (OOC)

An admin did not tell you it was okay to harrass you because it was cute. 

An admin gave you his opinion on what was said. 

And the admin in question couldn't do anything about it, because you lied and said you ahelped it when you did not. and further, it was not harassment in any way. 

 

If something makes you uncomfortable, and you say that it makes you uncomfortable, and they stop doing it, I don't know why you would be so hard pressed to get them in further trouble, even though they did as you asked and left you alone.

[Alberyk]

1 hour ago, BurgerBB said:

- Don't play a female unathi if you don't want to be treated like one.

- It's part of Unathi culture.

- Seperate the IC from the OOC.

- You shouldn't be uncomfortable OOCly when someone does something uncomfortable to your character ICly.

- The behavior has good intentions therefore that is all that should matter.

All of this was said over stuff that was not sexually related at all, sorry but stop trying to throw whatever I said about a totally non-related situation with whatever cringe shit someone said over looc.

1 hour ago, BurgerBB said:

Now, I'm not saying that actual IRL sexual harassment is the same as one of my characters being called thicc in a 2d atmos simulator, but you just can't help comparing and contrasting the logic people use to defend this sort of behavior in game and in real life.

Our lore also deals with a lot of stuff like racism and discrimination, just because the characters engage in it, it does not means that people do outside of character.

[Catnip]

Can't believe I'm agreeing with Geeves (memes aside), but "Say "Please stop." and ahelp it." - seriously.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Catnip

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I never said you had to deal with all that if you played a woman unathi.

I told you very specifically that you had to live with being called "female" and facing patronizing microaggressions.

The sex stuff is bad. But you also conflate any ic sexist or patronizing behavior on the same level as sex crimes. Youve called me a creepy sex pervert for highly innocuous things.

So i personally find this to be a case of crying wolf whenever you see a wolf OR a gopher. You seem triggered by any form of problematic ic behavior and get upset as if youre being sexually harassed or stalked even when youre super not.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Marlon Phoenix

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

You are a bully about this stuff honestly. 

You picked an ic fight over atmospherics upgrades i did then you spend the e tire other time we spent interacting interperating the fallout of this (ruul being snippy or very rude to you as a consequence) as being a creepy sex offender

 

[BurgerBB]

6 hours ago, Skull132 said:

Note that we're a heavy roleplay server. And we have lore. Lore is going to dictate certain things and certain attitudes, such as in Unathi culture the women being commonly held in lower regard as men. Which is, quite frankly, gonna result in certain roleplay instances where female Unathi characters are gonna be put down over male ones. This should, however, not be clearly sexual in nature, per my note above, and shouldn't really be a case of sexual harassment (I think our previous record with regards to IC sexual harassment taken too far is to nuke the player, at least one case comes to mind, though I'd have to research more to find the details).

Second note, just to cover my ass legally, really, is that we do have an age limit on the server. US law establishes a few things regarding data processing and online registration consent that we have to adhere to. With it comes an age limit of 13 years. Anyone reported to be younger than that we need to ban and remove the account details of. Roughly.

I just want to say that I agree with most of what you said in this post and I'm glad you took some time to respond and read it.

Just to be clear on one issue, all of the issues regarding borderline erp and creepy behavior were never done outside the server but all done within the server itself. Some scenes included me unironically being grabbed and pinned against the wall and me saying in IC and OOC that I'm not comfortable with it, and making jokes related to erp spiders. I made this thread because I'm being told that the behavior outlined in both instances was okay according to several players and 3 admins, and you can see sort of that in action with FreshRefreshment's post which honestly is the most attention I'm going to give to it because it's just so corrupt.

There is still some other unresolved issues that I really want to pay attention to, that you mention in this post, and it is the issue of unathi being weird with their sexism to the point where I'm unironically going to have to bring up citadel here. On citadel, I played a female because I was uncomfortable playing a male there as I was a homosexual and I did not want to get involved in scenes. People were very respectful about being denied erp, and would leave you alone if you showed the slightest bit of disinterest. A dude had a massive tribal fetish because of his headcanon of "lizards are from lavaland" and would unironically act like a grug except with a boner who would say and do some of the same things that Jackboot was doing. When I told them my concerns, they were like "Yeah, yeah that's cool." and toned it down to acceptable levels. In another instance, Citadel staff went apeshit on a dude who said "don't play a female if you don't want to be treated like a female" in response to someone who was doing something similar, but worse.

When administration was brought in for the second time, I bought all of my concerns to him. He basically told me it's my fault that I'm offended and that he won't change his playstyle. There was a lot more said by me and I'm depressed again that Jackboot still insists on taking out of context screenshots in order to somehow validate. It's extremely clear that they're not acting in good faith here. Like, the things he do isn't just sexism. When I got into engineering, he started throwing shit at me. He started challenging me to a duel despite me telling them to fuck off. They started making several creepy sexist remarks that I wasn't comfortable with. They told to fuck off whenever I had an engineering concern. They started "locker spamming" as a meme despite me telling them to stop and I knocked them down with a claw in maintenance, and ran away. They literally followed me into maintenance and started grabbing me despite me telling them to stop several times, resulting in me headbutting them, and running away again. They then chased me, again, and tried assaulting me with a goddamn shovel. When telling them that this isn't okay because I feel that it's honestly metagrudging at this point and note roleplay, they get super defensive and blame everything on me.

They ended up throwing their hands in the air and saying that they'll just not interact with me. I thought that meant "hey I won't don't any roleplay with you" but apparently that meant going "lalalala I can't hear you, you don't exist" whenever I bring up things. This would be hilarious if it wasn't high school and there was one instance where they literally said IC that "I will report you." when I said that they were doing antag shit.

I've had players refer to me as female and that's it. That's fine to me. What isn't fine is literally everything I outlined above, and more because I've never seen a character do this sort of thing to other characters. I've seen greytide do this where they scream "ligger female" and then try to grab and toolbox me, which is actually hilarious here. What isn't hilarious is a loredev who can't really be held accountable since they're the god damn loredev for unathi and make the rules and don't realise that maybe a player isn't comfortable when you're doing things that is indistinguishable from roleplay and metagrudging.

And honestly I should stop using the word sexism here because it's easy to defend for some reason and easy for people to go "It's IC!" even though I've said that it's MUCH more than that. I think Jackboot knows it because he keeps going back to it even though I've said "I'm not bothered by sexism, I'm bothered by the creepy behavior of you harassing my character."

[BurgerBB]

Just to be clear this thread is about mainly the sexual remarks as opposed one person being an issue, which is why I didn't touch on this in the OP because this conversation always gets derailed and turned into a shitflinging fest of everyone posting out of context screenshots while ignoring the main part of the conversation.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

I ignored you because i didnt want to be accused of being a sex pervert again. Then you felt victimized anyway. 

This is why i dont trust your prescriptive statements in this thread. 

You are a bully about this stuff. 

That is all.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Marlon Phoenix

[Alberyk]

As I explained, I looked into it, and saw nothing creepy or sexual, besides some sexism. And if this spawns several rounds, which you could also not tell me if it did or not, I told you to go make a complaint with evidence. Now, stop throwing whatever I said about this situation with the looc creepy shit, and I am still to see whatever creepy sexual remarks came out of this ic situation.

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Also call me by my actual name.

[FreshRefreshments]

12 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

Just to be clear on one issue, all of the issues regarding borderline erp and creepy behavior were never done outside the server but all done within the server itself. Some scenes included me unironically being grabbed and pinned against the wall and me saying in IC and OOC that I'm not comfortable with it, and making jokes related to erp spiders. I made this thread because I'm being told that the behavior outlined in both instances was okay according to several players and 3 admins,

Did you ahelp, and say you were not comfortable? Or is "several players and 3 admins" given after the fact, when you brought it up to complain about it after not taking the measures to keep it from happening? Because if you're saying it makes you uncomfortable, and they're ignoring you, thats completely valid to ahelp. 

An admins opinion on something and the choice they make for an ahelp are not always going to be exactly the same. Just because an admin wouldnt care if they were pinned against the wall (which, does NOT have to be sexual) ICly, does not mean they are going to disregard it in an ahelp. If you ahelp.

12 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

They ended up throwing their hands in the air and saying that they'll just not interact with me. I thought that meant "hey I won't don't any roleplay with you" but apparently that meant going "lalalala I can't hear you, you don't exist" whenever I bring up things. This would be hilarious if it wasn't high school and there was one instance where they literally said IC that "I will report you." when I said that they were doing antag shit.

You're now complaining that Marlon ignored you. But, you said, for them to leave you alone. And you keep posting screenshots of them leaving you alone. They can either treat your character, the way they would treat your character, or, for your comfort, they can leave you alone. Do you want an admin to TELL Marlon to leave you alone, which, is what he is currently doing? 

[BurgerBB]

12 minutes ago, Alberyk said:

As I explained, I looked into it, and saw nothing creepy or sexual, besides some sexism. And if this spawns several rounds, which you could also not tell me if it did or not, I told you to go make a complaint with evidence. Now, stop throwing whatever I said about this situation with the looc creepy shit, and I am still to see whatever creepy sexual remarks came out of this ic situation.

I literally told you it spawned several rounds. I told you that it has happened before and you insisted that it wasn't metagrudging because there was no evidence that he did to me with other characters he played, and you closed the ticket because I gave the response "I don't know if he did it with other characters."

[Carver]

In a statement that will inevitably offend some group of people or another, a great deal of the overall creepy behaviour can likely be derived from several factors. The two I believe firmly are the biggest at fault:

1. The server culture over the years has not done anything to discourage these people. In fact, it often encouraged these people, initially in a seemingly playful, satirical and downright joking manner. It's clear that over time this has changed as it's gone beyond being a running gag.
2. Due to the above factor, we've unfortunately gained some amount of community overlap with places such as Citadel. On it's own, that wouldn't be bad if not for that some people don't seem to know that different servers have different cultures, and sexual behaviour is very much unwelcome here.

Along with other factors drawing 'undesirables' here, such as lore being far less strict due to the introduction of numerous sub-factions that defy the standard character requirements of the base lore (Aut'akh, Dominia), as well as a near-unregulated amount of freedom granted to whitelist holders in regard to character design that would allow for aforementioned undesirables to come closer and closer to their self-insert fursonas in RP (Most common amongst two things I've noted: Unathi and Shells - Tajara have slightly avoided this due to a firmer oversight on their behaviour, and Vaurcae, whilst suffering from some pretty bad characters, are not as bad as the aforementioned two).

There are several ways to solve this, the ideal one being somewhat difficult for people to willingly accept:

• Ideally: Cut down on 'lore bloat' and offending sub-factions. Cull what causes growth of the problem. This would be a rather long-term objective, possibly requiring a cycling of lore staff as a result. Which is why I noted that this would be difficult for people to accept.
• Alternatively: Crack down on sexual behaviour and deviancy on the server and related platforms (Official Discord, Forums). Keep the OOC far more PG, and for IC, ban things such as flavour texts/FT-images that could be considered inappropriate (I've seen server staff with such). A puritanical standpoint is required if one wishes to cleanse the server's culture.

[Guest BoxWulf]

43 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

He started challenging me to a duel despite me telling them to fuck off.

Ruul also challenged my homosexual, male nurse to a duel with plastic swords and it was glorious. 

I don’t see this being sexist.

[BurgerBB]

  

13 minutes ago, FreshRefreshments said:

Did you ahelp, and say you were not comfortable? Or is "several players and 3 admins" given after the fact, when you brought it up to complain about it after not taking the measures to keep it from happening? Because if you're saying it makes you uncomfortable, and they're ignoring you, thats completely valid to ahelp. 

An admins opinion on something and the choice they make for an ahelp are not always going to be exactly the same. Just because an admin wouldnt care if they were pinned against the wall (which, does NOT have to be sexual) ICly, does not mean they are going to disregard it in an ahelp. If you ahelp.

You're now complaining that Marlon ignored you. But, you said, for them to leave you alone. And you keep posting screenshots of them leaving you alone. They can either treat your character, the way they would treat your character, or, for your comfort, they can leave you alone. Do you want an admin to TELL Marlon to leave you alone, which, is what he is currently doing? 

I hate this post because it confuses when and what happened at different times and then ends with a remark that isn't the point of anything.

I've dealt with administration long enough to understand that there are some administrators that require several paragraphs of incidents in order for them to do anything at all about a single incident. In most cases, this is a good thing, but in some cases it isn't because some adminstrators/mods think that just because it's a single incident, doesn't mean they don't have to really do anything. It's extremely easy to establish doubt and you will be made fun of for reporting players who say one lewd remark to a character. If I ahelped all those incidents individually, no one would take me seriously. I know this for sure now because I reported the "tummy rubbing" remarks to a moderator and they said it wasn't worth dealing with. I talked to two admins in deadchat, one said that it was cute and the other said it was cringe, but both said it wasn't worth dealing with. I mean, as I was writing this, someone just came into the thread, quoted literally one incident out of like 12 , and said "I don't see this as sexist" while ignoring everyone else. Do you see how easy it is to establish doubt, regardless of how reasonable it is?

I mean you're establishing doubt here too. You're doing here with the long-time-ago incident where someone was erpy around my character by saying "pinning people against a wall isn't sexual"despite me literally describing several other incidents. I didn't think I had to say this, but during emoted wall pins, they emoted an attempt to kiss me several times. I shouldn't have to say that when I gave other context too to describe their intent. You're doing it with Marlon here earlier too so I honestly think your intentions here aren't good, especially with that last remark which completely misses the point. The issue here is not that they're ignoring me, but they're going "lalala you don't exist, I don't hear you!" while doing it over basic trivial fucking shit like a question on whether or not the solars are up or if they want me to bring an air pump to the bar and then fuck off.

[Skull132]

On the flip side, burger. Your mode of reporting things, as presented here, makes a lot of this unactionable.

You submitted a staff complaint against Alb and Prate over a complex and misconstrued discussion, and the end result is that staff still don't have the ckey of the original poster via LOOC. (At least I don't remember seeing it and I've been tracking that complaint.)

This thread also had the issue of both being a policy discussion thread and a player complaint. Or player complaints, I guess, with multiple instances wrapped into one. For us to do anything specific, we'd need to do a metric ass of unmangling, most of which could have been avoided by individual complaint threads.

[FreshRefreshments]

9 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

  

I hate this post because it confuses when and what happened at different times and then ends with a remark that isn't the point of anything.

I've dealt with administration long enough to understand that there are some administrators that require several paragraphs of incidents in order for them to do anything at all about a single incident. In most cases, this is a good thing, but in some cases it isn't because some adminstrators/mods think that just because it's a single incident, doesn't mean they don't have to really do anything. It's extremely easy to establish doubt and you will be made fun of for reporting players who say one lewd remark to a character. If I ahelped all those incidents individually, no one would take me seriously. I know this for sure now because I reported the "tummy rubbing" remarks to a moderator and they said it wasn't worth dealing with. I talked to two admins in deadchat, one said that it was cute and the other said it was cringe, but both said it wasn't worth dealing with. I mean, as I was writing this, someone just came into the thread, quoted literally one incident out of like 12 , and said "I don't see this as sexist" while ignoring everyone else. Do you see how easy it is to establish doubt, regardless of how reasonable it is?

I mean you're establishing doubt here too. You're doing here with the long-time-ago incident where someone was erpy around my character by saying "pinning people against a wall isn't sexual"despite me literally describing several other incidents. I didn't think I had to say this, but during emoted wall pins, they emoted an attempt to kiss me several times. I shouldn't have to say that when I gave other context too to describe their intent. You're doing it with Marlon here earlier too so I honestly think your intentions here aren't good, especially with that last remark which completely misses the point. 

Glad to know you hate it. I'll keep that in mind. 

I take things very literally. So, when you say, this this and this, and do not mention "they attempted to kiss me", I assume, they did not attempt to kiss you. Why would I put words in your mouth if you did not say them? If someone attempted to kiss you, and you SAID you were uncomfortable, both IC, and LOOC, that seems like very, very much grounds for ahelping, and i'm sure multiple members of the staff team would back you up on this.

So, the question rises again. Did you ahelp this?

12 minutes ago, BurgerBB said:

The issue here is not that they're ignoring me, but they're going "lalala you don't exist, I don't hear you!" while doing it over basic trivial fucking shit like a question on whether or not the solars are up or if they want me to bring an air pump to the bar and then fuck off.

Marlon is also, not, going, "lalala you don't exist, I don't hear you". They are ignoring you. They are acting like you are not there. They are not responding to the things you say. Unless you have other screenshots showing where they have specifically said to you, "I am pretending you do not exist, stop speaking to me, knock it off", ICly, then they're just doing as you asked, and leaving you alone. 

[Skull132]

To add.

There is a reason why we insist on complaint threads and it's likely very close to the reason you made this thread. They are visible. Staff do not communicate with each other over isolated decisions, it'd be a great waste of energy to. So the argument of "I spoke to 3 different staff about it," is a bit iffy, specially if raised as an alternate to the established and required policy of going by the forums.

See, because individual decisions are made in isolation, there is not necessarily a review of them. The last staff member you ask might have no clue what you spoke about with the other 2, and management might be completely unaware of something even being spoken. Complaints raise decisions clearly for review. There is no real way to get around them, and they will be heard.

[BurgerBB]

5 minutes ago, Skull132 said:

On the flip side, burger. Your mode of reporting things, as presented here, makes a lot of this unactionable.

You submitted a staff complaint against Alb and Prate over a complex and misconstrued discussion, and the end result is that staff still don't have the ckey of the original poster via LOOC. (At least I don't remember seeing it and I've been tracking that complaint.)

This thread also had the issue of both being a policy discussion thread and a player complaint. Or player complaints, I guess, with multiple instances wrapped into one. For us to do anything specific, we'd need to do a metric ass of unmangling, most of which could have been avoided by individual complaint threads.

I reported the person to Paradox with their character name over discord after I thought about how reporting it would be beneficial to everyone, and someone told me to report it. I'm not attacking or anything, but I have stated this several times to them in the deadchat conversation, but here it is for reference.

This thread is not a player complaint. It's not meant to be about a specific person but rather the behavior I've noticed from other whitelisted players, mostly Unathi. The staff complaint I made was because they showed some pretty toxic viewpoints regarding enabling this sort of behavior. I would've included ParadoxSpace in my complaint but I don't know what he did or what he argued or what he ruled so I thought it would be unfair to him. To me, the comments that alb and prate made were worse than the actual crime here because I don't think this is acceptable for Aurorastation.

 

Would you like me to make 2 policy/lore discussion threads in a proper format so this can be discussed more officially? 

[BurgerBB]

14 minutes ago, FreshRefreshments said:

Glad to know you hate it. I'll keep that in mind. 

I take things very literally. So, when you say, this this and this, and do not mention "they attempted to kiss me", I assume, they did not attempt to kiss you. Why would I put words in your mouth if you did not say them? If someone attempted to kiss you, and you SAID you were uncomfortable, both IC, and LOOC, that seems like very, very much grounds for ahelping, and i'm sure multiple members of the staff team would back you up on this.

So, the question rises again. Did you ahelp this?

Marlon is also, not, going, "lalala you don't exist, I don't hear you". They are ignoring you. They are acting like you are not there. They are not responding to the things you say. Unless you have other screenshots showing where they have specifically said to you, "I am pretending you do not exist, stop speaking to me, knock it off", ICly, then they're just doing as you asked, and leaving you alone. 

Right. I'm not going to argue with you further than this post because it seems that you're not reading what I'm saying and you're still confusing one situation with another while others don't seem to have the same problem, and I'm honestly questioning your intentions here with your remarks here and your previous interactions with me.

The ex-moderator's creepy behavior was brought up to Arrow as they were the only one I could contact as I was permabanned as they handled forum moderation before. They didn't see the need to act or report it. It was then brought up to administrators, but they didn't really care and chastised me for not making a complaint at the time. I regret not realising their intentions sooner and I regret not making a complaint.

The "tummy rubbing" remarks were send to paradox as I was in another conversation with them. They said it wasn't ban-worthy, but they said they'll look into it anyways.

Marlon's character believability, not their sexism, was brought up in a player complaint.

Marlon's sexism and hostile behavior was brought up in an ahelp. Alb handled it, and said that was an IC issue because I couldn't prove that he was doing it with his other characters despite not knowing their other characters.

Marlon's sexism was brought up in a CIAA complaint that hasn't been touched.

Marlon being a dick was brought up to Lady Fowl, who hasn't responded because they are currently ghosting on discord due to an illness. Incidents reported included them dragging players who I was talking to mid conversation away, them being a vampire and threatening to report me for saying that they were with a cadet screaming for help, and the two incidents in the screenshot.

 

[Guest Marlon Phoenix]

Do you think I am a misogynist?

[BurgerBB]

Just now, Marlon Phoenix said:

Do you think I am a misogynist?

No.

Let me just repeat things that I've said to you and add new things because it doesn't seem to be clear what I think the issue here is and we keep going back to the "Burger thinks Marlon is sexist."

You are not a sexist. You don't think that women are inferior. You are not a misogynist. You don't hate women. You are not a creep. You aren't creepy OOC.

Your character acts like a sexist to an unreasonable level. Your character acts like a creep to an unreasonable level. Your character acts like a misogynist to an unreasonable level. 

As someone who is subjected to it and has to suffer because of it, I don't think it's appropriate for your character to do these things from an OOC perspective. I think it's unreasonable to play a character who does this in Tau Ceti employed by Humans. I think it's unreasonable to ignore my concerns and shift blame onto myself when I say that your interactions towards me make me uncomfortable. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to be uncomfortable when a player constantly targets my character and treats them worse than most characters, and honestly even worse than most female characters. I'm not asking you to stop the casual sexism that's defined in the lore. I'm asking you to stop doing so in a high level towards me and possibly even towards other people who might not like it. I'm asking you to please take it down a notch and understand that there is another player behind the screen who feels very uncomfortable when you're doing something that is extremely topical and can easily be mistaken for an actual creep.

I understand that you want to roleplay, and that you don't like being told what you can and cannot do, but I think that you should understand here that there is someone who doesn't appreciate it when you cross the line on multiple occasions, with honestly some really poor intent here. I understand why you'd get angry when I call your character's behavior creepy. I understand why you'd get angry when I'm telling you that you should stop doing something. I've done my best not to defame you, and avoid mentioning your name because I respect you as a person, and the issue here is not you but the ideals you have so that is what I am talking about, but I can understand feeling attacked because these are your ideals.

What I have issue is the fact that you do not seem to be very understanding of why I don't appreciate being targeted like this. I'm telling you OOCly that I do not like the way your character harrasses and berates me ICly and honestly It's starting to become reasonable that this is motivated by OOC factors because your character's behavior gets more worse the more I complain. It's just abusive behavior. Like, when I tried making friends with another character, you looked at our conversation, and then decided to drag them away, and I think that's where I drew the final line. Like I've said countless times, your character's behavior is unironically extremely similar to actual abusive people and it really blurs the lines between OOCly motivated and ICly motivated.